We will have to agree to disagree. From what I have seen the full power kick works better even for point sparring. Trained right I don't think the timing is that different and the angle and power in it makes it harder to defend.
Mirrors vs hitting things
- Thread starter Bruce7
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We will have to agree to disagree. From what I have seen the full power kick works better even for point sparring. Trained right I don't think the timing is that different and the angle and power in it makes it harder to defend.
JR 137
Grandmaster
The more experience I gain, the more I realize mirrors are deceiving. We have mirrors on the front and back wall where I train. We start practically every class with basics thrown in the air. I watch myself often enough in the mirrors during basics and kata. I think I look pretty good; not perfect by any means, but good enough. Well, except kicks above my waist 
I was preparing for a tournament a few months back that I had to back out of due to an injury (not training related). I had an instructor video me performing the kata. I saw quite a few things I didn’t see in the mirrors. I’ve videoed myself doing basics and hitting a bag. I saw quite a few things that I didn’t see in the mirrors.
And no, it wasn’t because the camera was at a different angle. The kata and basics were straight on, like the mirrors would’ve been.
Mirrors typically show me start and stop points, and the majority of the actual motion is lost to me. Watching it on video showed me how much I didn’t see. And when watching in the mirrors, I’m only seeing/focusing on one aspect/body part move. In video I see my whole body move in real time. I’m seeing what everyone else sees, and it’s different from what I see in the mirrors and different from what I’m “seeing” in my head. It’s kind of like singing - you may hear the pitch and annunciation correctly while you’re signing it, but if you record it and play it back, it can be quite different. A lot of people think they’re a good singer until they hear their recorded voice; a lot of people think they’re doing a technique nearly perfect until they see themselves on video, even if they’ve done it in front of mirrors a million times.
Another way to look at it is like watching a recorded sparring match. You see a ton of things on video that you didn’t see during the match because you were focused on very specific things, thereby giving you tunnel vision. Performing solo stuff in front of mirrors will give you tunnel vision too, but to a lesser extent.
As far as using mirrors vs hitting bags, and vs video that I’ve brought into the equation... you need a balance of all 3. Mirrors, bags, and video each give you a different type of feedback. IMO the mirrors probably give the most limited feedback, but they’re still helpful. If you’ve never recorded yourself, you really should give it a try. You’ll most likely be surprised by what you see.
I was preparing for a tournament a few months back that I had to back out of due to an injury (not training related). I had an instructor video me performing the kata. I saw quite a few things I didn’t see in the mirrors. I’ve videoed myself doing basics and hitting a bag. I saw quite a few things that I didn’t see in the mirrors.
And no, it wasn’t because the camera was at a different angle. The kata and basics were straight on, like the mirrors would’ve been.
Mirrors typically show me start and stop points, and the majority of the actual motion is lost to me. Watching it on video showed me how much I didn’t see. And when watching in the mirrors, I’m only seeing/focusing on one aspect/body part move. In video I see my whole body move in real time. I’m seeing what everyone else sees, and it’s different from what I see in the mirrors and different from what I’m “seeing” in my head. It’s kind of like singing - you may hear the pitch and annunciation correctly while you’re signing it, but if you record it and play it back, it can be quite different. A lot of people think they’re a good singer until they hear their recorded voice; a lot of people think they’re doing a technique nearly perfect until they see themselves on video, even if they’ve done it in front of mirrors a million times.
Another way to look at it is like watching a recorded sparring match. You see a ton of things on video that you didn’t see during the match because you were focused on very specific things, thereby giving you tunnel vision. Performing solo stuff in front of mirrors will give you tunnel vision too, but to a lesser extent.
As far as using mirrors vs hitting bags, and vs video that I’ve brought into the equation... you need a balance of all 3. Mirrors, bags, and video each give you a different type of feedback. IMO the mirrors probably give the most limited feedback, but they’re still helpful. If you’ve never recorded yourself, you really should give it a try. You’ll most likely be surprised by what you see.
- Thread Starter
- #23
The more experience I gain, the more I realize mirrors are deceiving. We have mirrors on the front and back wall where I train. We start practically every class with basics thrown in the air. I watch myself often enough in the mirrors during basics and kata. I think I look pretty good; not perfect by any means, but good enough. Well, except kicks above my waist
I was preparing for a tournament a few months back that I had to back out of due to an injury (not training related). I had an instructor video me performing the kata. I saw quite a few things I didn’t see in the mirrors. I’ve videoed myself doing basics and hitting a bag. I saw quite a few things that I didn’t see in the mirrors.
And no, it wasn’t because the camera was at a different angle. The kata and basics were straight on, like the mirrors would’ve been.
Mirrors typically show me start and stop points, and the majority of the actual motion is lost to me. Watching it on video showed me how much I didn’t see. And when watching in the mirrors, I’m only seeing/focusing on one aspect/body part move. In video I see my whole body move in real time. I’m seeing what everyone else sees, and it’s different from what I see in the mirrors and different from what I’m “seeing” in my head. It’s kind of like singing - you may hear the pitch and annunciation correctly while you’re signing it, but if you record it and play it back, it can be quite different. A lot of people think they’re a good singer until they hear their recorded voice; a lot of people think they’re doing a technique nearly perfect until they see themselves on video, even if they’ve done it in front of mirrors a million times.
Another way to look at it is like watching a recorded sparring match. You see a ton of things on video that you didn’t see during the match because you were focused on very specific things, thereby giving you tunnel vision. Performing solo stuff in front of mirrors will give you tunnel vision too, but to a lesser extent.
As far as using mirrors vs hitting bags, and vs video that I’ve brought into the equation... you need a balance of all 3. Mirrors, bags, and video each give you a different type of feedback. IMO the mirrors probably give the most limited feedback, but they’re still helpful. If you’ve never recorded yourself, you really should give it a try. You’ll most likely be surprised by what you see.
When I learn Martial Arts video was not as easy to do as it is today. I agree with you video is better than mirrors for forms and sparing evaluation, as a coach I used to video everything. At full speed your eye misses so much, being able to play it back over allows you to focus on different things. Really like your post I had not thought about video for Martial Arts training. The one advantage of mirror is you don't need help to run the camera. I agree a balance of all three is best because they help you in different ways.
Yokozuna514
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We are fortunate enough to have a dojo with mirrors and one without mirrors. Interestingly enough I do not find the students that train at the dojo with mirrors to have a noticeable advantage over the students that train in the dojo without mirrors. Although, I strongly believe that feedback is important the mirrors can actually be a distraction when working with kids. Instead of focusing on the instructor, some kids will have a tendency and look at themselves instead.
Recently, in a special class we are giving, I have taken to using video to record certain aspects that I feel would be beneficial for students to see. There are often 'aha' moments that can gleaned from watching yourself doing something you 'think' is correct but the video doesn't distort the truth. Note, I don't make recordings of the class and it is only really practical with smaller groups but each time we take a video and let the students see their performance I found that they were more receptive to any corrections we would make.
Recently, in a special class we are giving, I have taken to using video to record certain aspects that I feel would be beneficial for students to see. There are often 'aha' moments that can gleaned from watching yourself doing something you 'think' is correct but the video doesn't distort the truth. Note, I don't make recordings of the class and it is only really practical with smaller groups but each time we take a video and let the students see their performance I found that they were more receptive to any corrections we would make.
My dream dojo would include some camera installations set up for students to use, with a nearby screen to view the results. Preferably a touch screen with some kind of markup program included. And a projector/screen or big TV for reviewing some video with the entire class.The more experience I gain, the more I realize mirrors are deceiving. We have mirrors on the front and back wall where I train. We start practically every class with basics thrown in the air. I watch myself often enough in the mirrors during basics and kata. I think I look pretty good; not perfect by any means, but good enough. Well, except kicks above my waist
I was preparing for a tournament a few months back that I had to back out of due to an injury (not training related). I had an instructor video me performing the kata. I saw quite a few things I didn’t see in the mirrors. I’ve videoed myself doing basics and hitting a bag. I saw quite a few things that I didn’t see in the mirrors.
And no, it wasn’t because the camera was at a different angle. The kata and basics were straight on, like the mirrors would’ve been.
Mirrors typically show me start and stop points, and the majority of the actual motion is lost to me. Watching it on video showed me how much I didn’t see. And when watching in the mirrors, I’m only seeing/focusing on one aspect/body part move. In video I see my whole body move in real time. I’m seeing what everyone else sees, and it’s different from what I see in the mirrors and different from what I’m “seeing” in my head. It’s kind of like singing - you may hear the pitch and annunciation correctly while you’re signing it, but if you record it and play it back, it can be quite different. A lot of people think they’re a good singer until they hear their recorded voice; a lot of people think they’re doing a technique nearly perfect until they see themselves on video, even if they’ve done it in front of mirrors a million times.
Another way to look at it is like watching a recorded sparring match. You see a ton of things on video that you didn’t see during the match because you were focused on very specific things, thereby giving you tunnel vision. Performing solo stuff in front of mirrors will give you tunnel vision too, but to a lesser extent.
As far as using mirrors vs hitting bags, and vs video that I’ve brought into the equation... you need a balance of all 3. Mirrors, bags, and video each give you a different type of feedback. IMO the mirrors probably give the most limited feedback, but they’re still helpful. If you’ve never recorded yourself, you really should give it a try. You’ll most likely be surprised by what you see.
There is an app called "Coaches Eye" that would do exactly what you want.
[Edited because the original wording was sort of creeper-ish...]
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If I had my 'druthers, a training area with mirrors would have blinds that can be lowered over the mirrors, so they are only available when consciously chosen. I've watched kids' classes where the kids on the left side of the mats (where they were facing mirrors) couldn't keep up in the exercises, because they were mesmerized by the mirrors.
JR 137
Grandmaster
You beat me to it.
JR 137
Grandmaster
You really don’t need someone to run the camera for you. Just find a place to set it down where everything’s in the shot. Not the most optimal solution, obviously, but quite workable.
As Dirty Dog mentioned, look into Coach’s Eye. It’s an app for smartphones. It’ll let you draw on the video and has a wheel where you can turn it backwards and forward at any speed you want. I’ve used it for a lot of things in PE teaching and used it a lot for my MA stuff. It’s about $5-$10.
JR 137
Grandmaster
Just like Dirty Dog said - Coach’s Eye. It’s a $5 - $10 app that can be used on a phone or tablet. You can draw on it, and it has a wheel where you can go forward and backward at any speed you want. I had an instructor at me dojo video me doing a kata with it. I’ve also recorded myself doing bag work and basics with it. It’s the best video app I’ve seen for this stuff. It also does more stuff that’s over my head, like video sharing and YouTube type stuff.
Actually, it's free. There are in-app purchases, and you can pay to get some online sharing options, but the features you mentioned (which are what I use all the time...) are free. I've never spent a dime on it.
Yokozuna514
2nd Black Belt
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Not only kids get mesmerized by the mirrors
.
Off topic, but just wanted to add in, mirrors have another advantage-aiming. If I'm throwing a kick to the face, I can see if I got face height. If I'm practicing the five attacks in kali, I can see whether I'm crossing my face in an X the way that I'm supposed to, or if I'm going lateral, or if I'm slashing too low. Not as good at determining those things than a video, but I can correct it in real time.
JR 137
Grandmaster
I’ve owned it for about 7 years now and haven’t looked at it in the App Store. There wasn’t a free version when I got it, so I assumed it was still the same price, give or take.
Depends on how you play them. If I have kids who love the mirrors, I’ll teach them proper, strong shadowboxing and get them to do more work, and develop more doing that work, than in any other way.
Lots of ways to train, lots of styles to choose from. They pretty much all work - seriously, look at how many talented and successful Martial Artists there are, how many different competitors/fighters. What I, you, he, she, they, them and that guy do is all different. And that's a good thing.
As for mirror work, for the most part it's the start of the shadow boxing you teach beginners. In Martial Arts, it's the same thing as boxing, just with more techniques because we have more techniques. All the boxers I've trained with had different workouts, different things that worked for them, slightly different ways they used the bag, different ways they shadowboxed. And some were champions. Same for the Martial Arts guys.
Watch this video, really, it's worth it. Shadowboxing at it's finest, only take you five minutes. The guy seems to know what he's doing. If you mentally replace him with yourself, you'll just be using more strikes, because we use what we have and we have more strikes than boxers. And mirror work/shadowboxing is as much about attitude as it is about anything else.
Fast, for sure, but the word "smooth" comes to mind.
As for mirror work, for the most part it's the start of the shadow boxing you teach beginners. In Martial Arts, it's the same thing as boxing, just with more techniques because we have more techniques. All the boxers I've trained with had different workouts, different things that worked for them, slightly different ways they used the bag, different ways they shadowboxed. And some were champions. Same for the Martial Arts guys.
Watch this video, really, it's worth it. Shadowboxing at it's finest, only take you five minutes. The guy seems to know what he's doing. If you mentally replace him with yourself, you'll just be using more strikes, because we use what we have and we have more strikes than boxers. And mirror work/shadowboxing is as much about attitude as it is about anything else.
Fast, for sure, but the word "smooth" comes to mind.
Interestingly, in his shadow boxing he almost never punches higher than his own chest. Never noticed that before.
Good habit to build to catch the chin.
If the chin is that low (which it sometimes is). I was intrigued to see how few headshots (except where it looks like his ghost opponent is crouched) showed up in his shadow boxing.
