Mirroring Techniques

[mj-hi-yah]

As a requirement for second black, I am challenged to begin mirroring my techniques. I went back here on MT and read an interesting thread by tshadowchaser entitled - left-right? and the thread debated the necessity of doing this. There were some interesting arguments on both sides. However, as this is a requirement for me I don't have the luxury of deciding whether or not it's something I'd like to do, or personally find necessary, although I'm hoping I will find benefits to doing this.

For years now I've been training these techniques one sided and now have to rethink how I do them. To help me prepare for this I mirrored a few techniques in my personal form for my black belt. It was simply confusing - a major brain drain! This is something that we are expected to learn on our own, and right now I think I'm dreading the process, and am already putting off starting it. I'm wondering if anyone who teaches this or has self taught technique mirroring has any insights, ideas, suggestions, or recommendations on how to make this process a little less painful.

Thanks,
MJ :asian:

 

[Shodan]

Well, you already have some of this going on if you know Long Form 3 and Long Form 4. It seems very awkward at first to get this down, but with lots of practice, they become more smooth. My first instructor used to always say: "Repetition is the key" and it really applies here. Do them as much as you can in the air but also on the body as much as possible.......this way you will get to feel both ways and muscle memory will set in. If you get the chance to teach a lot.......especially the lower ranks- start teaching them their techs facing them. You do the tech on your left side for practice and they will mirror you on the right side to learn........we used to teach the kids' classes that way a lot cuz they'd try to mirror our moves so much they'd do it on the "wrong" side if we mirrored them doing the techs. on the right side.

Hope some of that makes sense and helps........

:asian: :karate:

 

[Rob Broad]

A simple method to help you get the material down is to video tape yourself doing the techniques slowly on the second side. Watch the tape and look for holes in your technique. Every few times you practice the second side tape your self, you should start to see improvement. The taping will help you find the things you have missed.

In no time you will be banging of techniques either side with out thought.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Well, you already have some of this going on if you know Long Form 3 and Long Form 4. It seems very awkward at first to get this down, but with lots of practice, they become more smooth. My first instructor used to always say: "Repetition is the key" and it really applies here. Do them as much as you can in the air but also on the body as much as possible.......this way you will get to feel both ways and muscle memory will set in. If you get the chance to teach a lot.......especially the lower ranks- start teaching them their techs facing them. You do the tech on your left side for practice and they will mirror you on the right side to learn........we used to teach the kids' classes that way a lot cuz they'd try to mirror our moves so much they'd do it on the "wrong" side if we mirrored them doing the techs. on the right side.

Hope some of that makes sense and helps........

:asian: :karate:

Shodan,

Yes Long Form 3 is one of my favorite and the techniques are very clear in both that and Long Form 4. The thing is it's just easier for me when I have someone to follow. I didn't even think about mirroring techniques in those forms I was just following my instructor's movement, but when I tried to do Returning Viper on my own for my personal form it was nutz I did eventually get it but it was challenging and foreign. It's like I finally have them in an automatic state, and now I have to really think it through again. I'm also concerned that it will affect my reaction time in general.

I really like the idea of teaching that way, but I think it will take a long time before I'm comfortable enough to do that. I don't like teaching things I'm not sure of, because I think unlearning is very difficult for a student and I don't want to confuse anyone. I have a friend who tells me all instruction in his school is done that way. Eventually being able to mirror teach techniques seems to be one really positive benefit of doing this.

Shodan or any of you who do this, do you think it's better to learn them over a period of time, like one at a time or try and run through them all or in chunks by belt level? What's the best way to start?

Thanks,
MJ :asian:

 

[Kenpo Mama]

As a requirement for second black, I am challenged to begin mirroring my techniques. I went back here on MT and read an interesting thread by tshadowchaser entitled - left-right? and the thread debated the necessity of doing this. There were some interesting arguments on both sides. However, as this is a requirement for me I don't have the luxury of deciding whether or not it's something I'd like to do, or personally find necessary, although I'm hoping I will find benefits to doing this.

For years now I've been training these techniques one sided and now have to rethink how I do them. To help me prepare for this I mirrored a few techniques in my personal form for my black belt. It was simply confusing - a major brain drain! This is something that we are expected to learn on our own, and right now I think I'm dreading the process, and am already putting off starting it. I'm wondering if anyone who teaches this or has self taught technique mirroring has any insights, ideas, suggestions, or recommendations on how to make this process a little less painful.

Thanks,
MJ :asian:

Hey MaryJo,

I find that actually using the mirror to "mirror" techniques is the best way to learn the other side of the tech. Break the tech down into segments, about 3 or 4 movements at a time, then watching yourself in the mirror do it on the other side. Add a little more, then mirror, then go back to the beginning of the tech and start again, before you know it, you will be doing the tech fluidly.

You will be amazed how many of the techs you actually know both sides of when you begin to analyze them in terms of what you have learned in form. And pay close attention, it is not always necessary to learn all the techs from both sides. I'm sure you will do fine. I always use the joke from Ben Stiller's movie - Zoolander "i can't go left"! Try one a day and see how it goes!

Donna

 

[MisterMike]

As a requirement for second black, I am challenged to begin mirroring my techniques. I went back here on MT and read an interesting thread by tshadowchaser entitled - left-right? and the thread debated the necessity of doing this. There were some interesting arguments on both sides. However, as this is a requirement for me I don't have the luxury of deciding whether or not it's something I'd like to do, or personally find necessary, although I'm hoping I will find benefits to doing this.

For years now I've been training these techniques one sided and now have to rethink how I do them. To help me prepare for this I mirrored a few techniques in my personal form for my black belt. It was simply confusing - a major brain drain! This is something that we are expected to learn on our own, and right now I think I'm dreading the process, and am already putting off starting it. I'm wondering if anyone who teaches this or has self taught technique mirroring has any insights, ideas, suggestions, or recommendations on how to make this process a little less painful.

Thanks,
MJ :asian:

As you start going through the techniques you may find you already know the left side of them and they will come easier than you think.

Like Crossing Talon and Crossed Twigs.

Run those one after the other and see what you find.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

A simple method to help you get the material down is to video tape yourself doing the techniques slowly on the second side. Watch the tape and look for holes in your technique. Every few times you practice the second side tape your self, you should start to see improvement. The taping will help you find the things you have missed.

In no time you will be banging of techniques either side with out thought.

Rob that is a great idea! I'm finally over "the hate to be filmed thing" and find it very useful in the analysis of my sparring. I will definitely give this a try!

I find that actually using the mirror to "mirror" techniques is the best way to learn the other side of the tech. Break the tech down into segments, about 3 or 4 movements at a time, then watching yourself in the mirror do it on the other side. Add a little more, then mirror, then go back to the beginning of the tech and start again, before you know it, you will be doing the tech fluidly.

Hey Donna,

I'll give this a shot at the studio! Are you mirroring at your school?

MJ :asian:

 

[Storm]

I have been instructing tigers for a little while (5 - 10 y olds). When facing the class you have to do everything oposite to them so they can follow.

If I was to put my right arm up in a block and tell them to do the same they would mirror my image and put uo their left, so I now say right but use my left.

I havent done all techniques as they are not all required for juniors and the older the child the less you have to do it oposite. Some times I find that half of the move is ok but find the hand that should be checking is doing nothing. Then when I go to do it with the adults I cant remember which side is correct.

All very confusing, but like the others said, the more you do it the more it becomes natural to your body just as the first moves you learnt did. Thats what I am hoping anyway. :erg:

 

[Kenpo Mama]

Hey Donna,

I'll give this a shot at the studio! Are you mirroring at your school?

MJ :asian:

I am mirroring many of the techs in my new forms and for my personal study, however it is not a requirement at my new school, at least not yet! I can do close to 75 of the techs on both sides now, i do not think it is necessary to do all of the 230 techs on both sides however, i consider this more of a personal preference.

Donna :ultracool

 

[loki09789]

"Mirroring" or ambidextrous training is a great "brain trainer" to enhance your spacial and Kinesthetic awareness. It stimulates a broader perspective. Really good stuff.

I think coming from a weapons based system like an FMA helped because I did this from the beginning to avoid asymetrical muscle development as well. I noticed that in my RyuKyu Kenpo program years back everything was off the same direction/lead and such and I noticed that my back/knees and such would get over worked on one side. Also, being able to respond with either direction/side is an application of adaptability/translation.

Probably the simplest way to train this if you are new to it is to break the forms into 'segments' (each directional change is a simple way to go) and flipping it in pieces in these bits first, then put it all back together.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

As you start going through the techniques you may find you already know the left side of them and they will come easier than you think.

Like Crossing Talon and Crossed Twigs.

Run those one after the other and see what you find.

Thanks Mister Mike... I definitely think some will be easier than others. I have Crossing Talon but I don't know Crossed Twigs, but even in Crossing Talon we at least go to the left and right. This is one of the ones that may be easier. I find everything on my left side to be a challenge though...drills, sparring etc., Since most of the techniques are right side dominant and I'm a righty the left side is harder to begin with. It's just so challenging tapping into the less dominant half of my brain, and the muscles are weaker on my left to start with.

MJ :asian:

 

[MisterMike]

Thanks Mister Mike... I definitely think some will be easier than others. I have Crossing Talon but I don't know Crossed Twigs, but even in Crossing Talon we at least go to the left and right. This is one of the ones that may be easier. I find everything on my left side to be a challenge though...drills, sparring etc., Since most of the techniques are right side dominant and I'm a righty the left side is harder to begin with. It's just so challenging tapping into the less dominant half of my brain, and the muscles are weaker on my left to start with.

MJ :asian:

Notice that crossing Talon is done primarily with the left hand? Kinda makes you wonder what the "right" side of Crossing Talon is, since Kenpo is a "right-handed" style.

If you have Short Form 3, you have Crossed Twigs - it follows Locked Wing.

 

[Rob Broad]

Another method of using video tape is to tape your self doing what you normally do. When you watch it on the TV everything will be on teh opposite side. Just follow the tape. By doing exactly what you see you will be mirroring if you do not compensate for the image being reversed.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

I havent done all techniques as they are not all required for juniors and the older the child the less you have to do it oposite. Some times I find that half of the move is ok but find the hand that should be checking is doing nothing. Then when I go to do it with the adults I cant remember which side is correct.

All very confusing, but like the others said, the more you do it the more it becomes natural to your body just as the first moves you learnt did. Thats what I am hoping anyway. :erg:

Storm :erg: LOL I understand how you feel about which side is correct, because I also teach, and I now have to remember to separate in my mind which is the mirrored side and which is the original side, or the side the student needs to learn and know initially.

I wish you luck in this as well!


Ok Rob I'm in this mode right now :erg:, but I really think you may be onto something! :uhyeah: I'll give it a shot!

Donna sounds like you've got it down!

MJ :asian:

 

[mj-hi-yah]

"Mirroring" or ambidextrous training is a great "brain trainer" to enhance your spacial and Kinesthetic awareness. It stimulates a broader perspective. Really good stuff.

I think coming from a weapons based system like an FMA helped because I did this from the beginning to avoid asymetrical muscle development as well. I noticed that in my RyuKyu Kenpo program years back everything was off the same direction/lead and such and I noticed that my back/knees and such would get over worked on one side. Also, being able to respond with either direction/side is an application of adaptability/translation.

Probably the simplest way to train this if you are new to it is to break the forms into 'segments' (each directional change is a simple way to go) and flipping it in pieces in these bits first, then put it all back together.

Paul I learn well kinesthetically learner so hopefully this won't be as hard as it seems right now. I agree about the muscle development sometimes in Kenpo I think my right arm/leg look more developed and fit as a result of all the right side dominant training.

We learn our forms in small steps so this would make sense here too!

Thanks,
MJ :asian:

 

[Rob Broad]

Ok Rob I'm in this mode right now :erg:, but I really think you may be onto something! :uhyeah: I'll give it a shot!


MJ :asian:

I stumbled on to this by accident. I once had a student who taped every lesson since she only did private lessons and only made it in to see me once a month since she lived about 6 hours away. She would learn the techniques in the lesson, go home pop in video tape and start practicing. She would do what she saw. If she saw a hand move n the right hand of the screen she moved her right hand. Luckily we caught the problema after only a couple lessons. She then aimed the camera at the mirrors to catch what we were doing and everything seemed corrected to her.

 

[pete]

If you have Short Form 3, you have Crossed Twigs - it follows Locked Wing.

that would be Shackle Break (B) to you and me...

 

[Karazenpo]

Since fighting is all about balance and coordination, learning techniques mirror image can only enhance what you already developed. In Karazenpo, all combinations are to be 'perfected' mirror image at brown belt level. Let me throw this at you. I had this idea a long time ago (parallel thinking) and then I read somewhere, can't remember, but it may have been a martial artist who also teaches police and military personel, not sure though. Anyway, he gave this concept a name. It was called 'tactical techniques'. Tactical techniques are those that are initially learned favoring the right hand attack but can, with very little modification, be altered against a left hand attack, kick, grab, a one-two, club, etc. The entry is modified and the rest stays pretty much the same. I like the concept and here's why. No matter how you cut it, if you train right/left equally then you are dividing your training time 50/50 against coordinating your body against an attack that would happen the great 'minority' of the time. In other words, martial arts most definitely seems to favor the right hander in both attack and defense. Obviously, the old masters were right handed. Agreed, some systems' forms and techniques are more 'balanced' then others but the martial arts most definitely favors right handers. I like this concept because it allows a slight alterring of your initial move or entry according to the type of attack but your counter-attack remains pretty much the same, what you practice the vast majority of the time is what you train to use. Another way to explain this is Bill 'Superfoot' Wallace. He wasn't 'Superfoot' until he injured his right leg. Then he concentrated the vast majority if not all of his speed kicking to his left leg and look at the results. Again, I most definitely believe in mirror image to a point, it balances you off but I feel the vast majority of your combat training should be done using this concept. Just go through your techniques and find the one's that fit this idea. They should be the 'core' of your reality training. Hey, just my opinion and I'm sure others on this board have experienced the same thing. If not, give it a try, can't hurt! Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras

 

[GAB]

Hello:
The mirroring techs are very popular in the FMA with the double stick application of Kali. (Guro Dan Inosanto) First thing you learn is double baston (two stick) what you do with the right you do with the left, same with the feet,same with the hands..
Regards, gary

 

[mj-hi-yah]

I stumbled on to this by accident. I once had a student who taped every lesson since she only did private lessons and only made it in to see me once a month since she lived about 6 hours away. She would learn the techniques in the lesson, go home pop in video tape and start practicing. She would do what she saw. If she saw a hand move n the right hand of the screen she moved her right hand. Luckily we caught the problema after only a couple lessons. She then aimed the camera at the mirrors to catch what we were doing and everything seemed corrected to her.

Interesting Rob and some of the best ideas are found "by accident" or not quite on purpose. Didn't Ed Parker formulate ideas concerning motion by watching video of himself in reverse?

Notice that crossing Talon is done primarily with the left hand? Kinda makes you wonder what the "right" side of Crossing Talon is, since Kenpo is a "right-handed" style.

I do think Kenpo does address the left side in techniques, but those are far outnumbered by the right sided ones, and right handed attacks are more highly represented as well. As far as Crossing Talon on the right LOL :lol: I'll have to work that one...it's confusing just to try and visualize it without the mirror or without movement, and I really think I'll need an uke at times to work it out as well.

If you have Short Form 3, you have Crossed Twigs - it follows Locked Wing.

that would be Shackle Break (B) to you and me...

Got the visualization now thanks Pete and Mister Mike!

Tactical techniques are those that are initially learned favoring the right hand attack but can, with very little modification, be altered against a left hand attack, kick, grab, a one-two, club, etc. The entry is modified and the rest stays pretty much the same.

Professor Joe Shuras,
Interesting thoughts...to see if I'm understanding you...are you saying you look especially for techniques to mirror that are adaptable (to be against for instance a left step through punch and then a right step through punch) so as to necessitate only a change in the initial move in a technique which then would allow the rest of the technique to remain unchanged rather than change the entire technique? If this is what you are saying I could see it working more with frontal attacks and rear attacks, but it's not as clear to me in side attacks.

Another way to explain this is Bill 'Superfoot' Wallace. He wasn't 'Superfoot' until he injured his right leg. Then he concentrated the vast majority if not all of his speed kicking to his left leg and look at the results.

I do think it's a good idea to develop the muscles on both sides of the body, especially in the case where you might find yourself down a dominant weapon as in Bill Wallace's case.

Again, I most definitely believe in mirror image to a point, it balances you off but I feel the vast majority of your combat training should be done using this concept. Just go through your techniques and find the one's that fit this idea. They should be the 'core' of your reality training. Hey, just my opinion and I'm sure others on this board have experienced the same thing. If not, give it a try, can't hurt!

What you say makes sense. I think some techniques will lend themselves more practically to mirroring that is actually useful to me, however for my teacher's requirements I need to learn them all on the mirror side. Ultimately, I think just as I find some of my techniques to be favorites and more applicable in sparring and no mind situations, I think some of the mirrored techniques will become favorites as well. This is all a part of the debate I was referring to in the initial post of this thread. Here's the link. You might find it interesting. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2576&highlight=left

The mirroring techs are very popular in the FMA with the double stick application of Kali. (Guro Dan Inosanto) First thing you learn is double baston (two stick) what you do with the right you do with the left, same with the feet,same with the hands..

Hello Gary...Kali is an interesting art! Do you find it confusing to work with your less dominant side so much or do you think it develops it more?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

MJ :asian: