Measuring Racism in America

[rmcrobertson]

I agree. Let's abandon the past...no more hanging on to the old world...provided this includes a) any and all St. Patrick's Day celebrations, b) all this Columbus Day nonsense, c) these ancient Christian celebrations, Christmas and easter, d) Neapolitan ice cream, and pizza. And oh yes...no more of these rodeos, which whine on and on and on about heroic cowboys...no more NASCAR, and the dreary celebration of white Southern yeehawing...

Funny how it's prefectly OK for some to celebrate their ethnicity and their history, and others not. Personally, I find Kwanzaa kinda goofy...but no goofier than Christmas.

 

[Flatlander]

I agree. Let's abandon the past...no more hanging on to the old world...(etc.)

That was a bit of projection regarding Kane's comment, wouldn't you say? I think he was more or less expressing his desire for society to move forward in a progressive way with regards to historical racial divisions. In fact, in that context, it sort of sounds like you are satirizing your own belief structure here, which I'm certain you didn't intend to do. Perhaps your emotions are clouding your judgement. You need to stretch out with your feelings.

 

[rmcrobertson]

No, I wouldn't.

His comments are quite consonant with the frequent remarks one hears these days to the effect that women have now achieved full equality (in fact, they want to me more equal!), and that therefore we have no further need of feminism.

But I am glad to see psychobabble from the 1970s adapted to the purpose of protecting dominant ideology from interrogation.

 

[Flatlander]

Sure it was. You're putting words in his mouth. Projection.

70's psychobabble? Try - attempt at levity, with Obi-Wan-Kenobi speak.

Protecting dominant ideology from interrogation, or seeking interpretive precision? Doesn't make too much sense to go off on someone if we are misreading their intent, does it? Not all are capable of expression at your level of colorful articulation.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Oh wow, duder.

Perhaps your emotions are clouding your judgment. You need to stretch out with your feelings.

And then again, perhaps quoting will suggest just how incompatible (not to say inappropriate) a recoruse to one's feelings rermains in re racism.

Basic "Wit and Its Relation to the Unconscious:" jokes articulate unconscious desires and resistances.

 

[Makalakumu]

70's psychobabble? Try - attempt at levity, with Obi-Wan-Kenobi speak.

Dude, I caught it right away. And rmcrobertson is right! The time periods match exactly! Of course this is all, "from a certain point of view..."

 

[RandomPhantom700]

jokes articulate unconscious desires and resistances.

Yeah, so when I tell the "Orange you glad" knock-knock joke, I'm really expressing an intense desire for oranges over bananas. :idunno:

 

[Deflecting_the_Storm]

I think the idea of this thread was to see if anyone could put a measurement on Racism. You cant. Everyone feels that they have been wronged in some way not just with the color of their skin, but from where they come from, how much money they make, what they drive, where they live, if they can speak right. I live in Texas, I am a biracial person. I dont believe that there is any racism in america anymore. Just people being told lies and believing them. Fear of the unknown is what racism is. Now some of you will say that you somehow were effected by a person of a different race or affirmative action caused you to lose a job, or a college admission. But do you really know? What if that person is just better than you? The option of affirmative action just angers people. We find the need to blame something to explain why things happen in this world. Why things are different. There are only two problems in this world. 1. Selfishness. 2. Lack of responsibility. If you could eliminate those there would not be any hatred or crime. People would be driven to do the right thing to get what they want, and not blame everyone else for the mistakes, or problems in their life. I dont know anyone who is truely racist. The common thing I hear all the time is that since I am half, I am not really part of that race. Or that because I speak well, and carry myself in a different way, that I am not that stereotype. But I am. And when I do those things that they hate so much, they dont hate me, they enjoy my company. I have met many of men and women who hate people of a different race and then I get them to say that its not really that, they were raised to hate. There is no reason for it. As far as the affirmative action discussion goes, that can help/hurt others not just of race, but of religion, sexual orientation, and practices that they do outside of said job/school. Everyone I hear about always wants to play the race card when it comes to affirmative action, but guess what, A gay man can get the job over you, a gay jewish man can get the job over him, a gay, jewish dwarf can get the job over him. Then a Muslim woman could get the job over him. Its more than just race with it. Racism is just a name we give to hatred. Hate is the same. Fear of the unknown. Fear of something better, something worse. Fear itself. If we changed the word from Hate to fear or racism to fear, doesnt it show how weak and sad we are as people on this planet? My 2 cents. Thats it.

 

[rmcrobertson]

It is extremely easy to get on the Internet and find well-documented evidence that clearly-measurable racism is alive and well in the United States, and--as much as I appreciate the last post--deflecting that reality into generalized terms such as "fear," will not change a thing.

But perhaps this is the sort of thing that leaves folks with the notion that everything's just ginger-peachy:

Critical Study Minus Criticism of Justice Dept.

by David Johnston and Eric Lichtblau

*
WASHINGTON, Oct. 30 — An internal report that harshly criticized the Justice Department's diversity efforts was edited so heavily when it was posted on the department's Web site two weeks ago that half of its 186 pages, including the summary, were blacked out.

The deleted passages, electronically recovered by a self-described "information archaeologist" in Tucson, portrayed the department's record on diversity as seriously flawed, specifically in the hiring, promotion and retention of minority lawyers.

The unedited report, completed in June 2002 by the consulting firm KPMG, found that minority employees at the department, which is responsible for enforcing the country's civil rights laws, perceive their own workplace as biased and unfair.

"The department does face significant diversity issues," the report said. "Whites and minorities as well as men and women perceive differences in many aspects of the work climate. For example, minorities are significantly more likely than whites to cite stereotyping, harassment and racial tension as characteristics of the work climate. Many of these differences are also present between men and women, although to a lesser extent."

Another deleted part said efforts to promote diversity "will take extraordinarily strong leadership" from the attorney general's office and other Justice Department offices.

Even complimentary conclusions were deleted, like one that said "attorneys across demographic groups believe that the Department is a good place to work" and another that said "private industry cites DOJ as a trend-setter for diversity." Beyond that, a recommendation that the department should "increase public visibility of diversity issues," was kept out of the public report.

Private lawyers who have sued federal agencies for racial discrimination expressed dismay at the heavy editing of the report and at its conclusions that discrimination was perceived by the minority lawyers who make up about 15 percent of the Justice Department's 9,200 lawyers.

"The Justice Department has sought to hide from the public statistically significant findings of discrimination against minorities within its ranks," said David J. Shaffer, a lawyer who has represented agents from federal agencies in class-action discrimination lawsuits. "These cases challenge the same type of discriminatory practices found to exist at the Justice Department."

After the unedited document began circulating in computer circles, and articles began appearing earlier this month in publications like Computer World and newspapers like Newsday, the Justice Department pulled the edited report from its Web site, later posting a different version thought to be more resistant to electronic manipulation.

The complaints about the Justice Department come as it has shifted many resources to fighting terrorism and critics have said it has allowed the enforcement of civil rights to languish and failed to aggressively pursue some accusations of discrimination in housing, the workplace and other critical areas.

Senator Edward M. Kennedy, Democrat of Massachusetts, said the department's handling of the report called into question its commitment to diversity in its own workplace.

At a Senate hearing this week, Mr. Kennedy told James B. Comey, nominated by President Bush to succeed Larry Thompson as deputy attorney general, that the episode "gives the distinct impression that the department commissioned the report, then left it on the shelf, ignoring the recommendations."

Mr. Comey, however, said the report and the policy that grew out of it were "a point of pride" for the Justice Department.

Mark Corallo, a Justice Department spokesman, said that portions of the report, and even its conclusions, were "deliberative and predecisional" and so could be excluded from the public report under provisions in the Freedom of Information Act. Mr. Corallo said some of the consultants' findings were inaccurate, but he said he could not discuss deleted passages.

Mr. Corallo said career lawyers who routinely decide how to censor material before public release made the recommendations about what to delete from the diversity report. He said their recommendations were sent to the office of the deputy attorney general, where it was reviewed by political appointees who made no further changes.

By the time the department posted the theoretically more secure version of the report on its Web site, it was too late. Russ Kick, a writer and editor in Tucson, who operates a Web site, thememoryhole.org, had had already electronically stripped the edited version of the black lines that hid the full text. Mr. Kick then posted the unedited version of the report (.pdf file) on his Web site, where it has been copied more than 32,000 times, a near record for the site. Justice Department officials said it was unlikely that any action would be taken against Mr. Kick.

Some Justice Department lawyers said the editing of the report had overshadowed the purpose of the study. Stacey Plaskett Duffy, a senior counsel to the deputy attorney general, said the study, a self-evaluation, was part of a program to improve the department's diversity programs.

"This was a study that we commissioned of our own volition to get a look at what our work force looked like," Ms. Duffy said. "We didn't have to let people know we were doing this."

She said the department had undertaken a number of significant steps to improve the work environment for minority members. Department officials have begun a pilot $300,000 program to help new lawyers pay off student loans, she said, and have also started a mentoring program, begun posting all job openings and are assessing how to more fairly assign cases within each unit.

Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Interesting. I wonder what other statistics the report considered; I hope it wasn't only employee perceptions. Those are obviously important, but not conclusive of racism. However, with 186 pages, I'm sure it had to address other stats.

Hmm, 186-page document that Im not even sure I should be lookin at...decisions, decisions.

 

[Makalakumu]

Interesting. I wonder what other statistics the report considered; I hope it wasn't only employee perceptions. Those are obviously important, but not conclusive of racism. However, with 186 pages, I'm sure it had to address other stats.

Hmm, 186-page document that Im not even sure I should be lookin at...decisions, decisions.

THAT is exactly why posed this thread. So many reports cite statistics and then do not SHOW the stats they are citing. I was hoping that we could look at some actual stats and ponder their meaning. Hopefully, then, we can come to a better understanding of racism in America.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Racism can be measured in America by the color-coding of human beings; calling an Italian American, or Lithuanian American 'white' or calling an Afro-American 'black' is racist, so color coding human-beings is racist.

The selective color coding of humans is racist, for example, Irish Americans are called 'white', but Chinese Americans are not called 'Yellow', they're called 'Asian', so the selective color coding of people is racist.

Institutionalized Racism is identified by policies which favor one human over another: for example, forced busing is racist, affirmative action is racist, minority quotas is racist, forced housing is racist, these are all examples of 'Institutionalized Racism'.

Confusing a religion for an ethnic group or race is RACIST: Catholics, Jews, Protestants, Buddhists, and Muslims are religions, not races, so it is Racist to refer to a religion as an ethnic group.

Institutionalized Favoritism and color coding human beings and regarding religion as ethnicity are RACIST. WE must stop this racism every chance we get. These are examples of terrorist racists, and cannot be tolerated.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Racism can be measured in America by the color-coding of human beings; calling an Italian American, or Lithuanian American 'white' or calling an Afro-American 'black' is racist, so color coding human-beings is racist.

The selective color coding of humans is racist, for example, Irish Americans are called 'white', but Chinese Americans are not called 'Yellow', they're called 'Asian', so the selective color coding of people is racist.

Institutionalized Racism is identified by policies which favor one human over another: for example, forced busing is racist, affirmative action is racist, minority quotas is racist, forced housing is racist, these are all examples of 'Institutionalized Racism'.

Confusing a religion for an ethnic group or race is RACIST: Catholics, Jews, Protestants, Buddhists, and Muslims are religions, not races, so it is Racist to refer to a religion as an ethnic group.

Institutionalized Favoritism and color coding human beings and regarding religion as ethnicity are RACIST. WE must stop this racism every chance we get. These are examples of terrorist racists, and cannot be tolerated.

I don't understand what you mean by "terrorist racists".

Who is referring to religons as ethnicities or races?

And as much as people like to whomp on Affirmative Action, until African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans, etc, really are given as fair a shake as white folks in this country, that is just one method to try to level the playing field a bit.

I'll have to gid up some of the recent work on racist attitudes - it's disturbing how ingrained some attitudes are, without people being actively aware of them.

 

[Flatlander]

I'll have to gid up some of the recent work on racist attitudes - it's disturbing how ingrained some attitudes are, without people being actively aware of them.

I found this, which can be used as a technique to measure racism, though I don't think that is the primary application for the technique, from this website:

Each student was then shown a series of photographs, some of white males and some of black males. The more biased a student was, the more the team saw a certain area of their brain activate, an area associated with "executive control," conscious efforts to direct thinking. This, Richeson said, is a sign the brain is struggling not to think inappropriate thoughts.

Based on the findings, the team suggested that when a biased person interacts with someone of another race, even briefly, it exhausts the part of the brain in charge of executive control, leaving it temporarily unable to perform as well on the Stroop test and, presumably, other tasks.

The point of the study done here was to reveal subconcious or filtered predjudicial thoughts, as many people who have these types of thoughts or feelings tend to filter them out when discussing related topics. Generally, people tend not to want to be viewed or labelled as racist or predjudiced.

 

[TwistofFat]

Funny how it's prefectly OK for some to celebrate their ethnicity and their history, and others not. Personally, I find Kwanzaa kinda goofy...but no goofier than Christmas.

Robert, I always enjoy your point of view but thought I would make some comments and await the return flaying

Kwanzaa was created by Dr. Maulana Karenga to celebrate being African and human. The Nguzo Saba (7 principals) start with Umoja (unity) that professes the need for unity in family, community, nation and ironically for this thread, race.

Christmas was not created per se, but most of us know the tradition grew from one man's impact on billions of people throughout the last two thousand years. Man or god - no one man and his followers have had the impact Jesus of Nazereth had. Period.

I can not imagine the folks who gave their lives and are still dying for these beliefs today can be called goofy. Goofy is cute word. Not ment to offend yet dismissive. As you said "jokes articulate unconscious desires and resistances".

The subject of this discussion was racism, a word and practice all civilized people should (and do) detest. Feisty Mouse posted about a study:

"The point of the study done here was to reveal subconcious or filtered predjudicial thoughts, as many people who have these types of thoughts or feelings tend to filter them out when discussing related topics. Generally, people tend not to want to be viewed or labelled as racist or predjudiced."

Funny how you can defend such noble cause as celebration of diversity and origin but laugh in face of the noble search for our collective origin and meaning. You and the comparitive religion prof must be quite a pair.

“And Govinda saw that this mask-like smile, this smile of unity over the flowing forms, this smile of simultaneousness over the thousands of births and deaths—this smile of Siddhartha—was exactly the same as the calm, delicate, impenetrable, perhaps gracious, perhaps mocking, wise, thousand-fold smile of Gotama, the Buddha, as he perceived it with awe a hundred times”

 

[Patrick Skerry]

I don't understand what you mean by "terrorist racists".

Who is referring to religons as ethnicities or races?

And as much as people like to whomp on Affirmative Action, until African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans, etc, really are given as fair a shake as white folks in this country, that is just one method to try to level the playing field a bit.

I'll have to gid up some of the recent work on racist attitudes - it's disturbing how ingrained some attitudes are, without people being actively aware of them.

Some people have referred to 'Jews' and 'Moslems' as if they were a race or an ethnic group. Also, color-coding human beings is racist, so becareful when you use the term 'white' - who are the "white folk" in this country? Do they live near the 'yellow folk'?

Forced busing and affirmative action are discriminating against caucasians in this country. We have 30+ years of forced busing in Boston when there was no segregation or imbalance, yet residents are forced to send their kids to non-select schools based on skin color - which makes forced busing a form of "terrorist racism"; affirmative action is discriminating against caucasians based on skin color, making affirmative action a form of "terrorist racism".

In 1964 70% of the Boston Public Schools were ethnic caucasian, and these ethnic caucasians (I'm an Irish American) were slurred as 'white', making the schools 70% white in violation of the 1964 Racial Imbalanced Act, and forced busing was supposed to 'desegregate' the non-segregated schools. Today in 2004, thanks to forced busing, the Boston Public Schools are 70-80% 'black & hispanic' in total violation of the 1964 Racial Imbalance Act, yet nothing is being done! This is another example of "terrorist racism".

Until all racism is stopped in this country against the Polish American, Irish American, etc... and the Afro-American, institutionalized racism like Affirmative Action will only perpetuate racism, not end it.

 

[Flatlander]

Feisty Mouse posted about a study:

Actually Glen, that was me

.

Forced busing and affirmative action are discriminating against caucasians in this country. We have 30+ years of forced busing in Boston when there was no segregation or imbalance, yet residents are forced to send their kids to non-select schools based on skin color - which makes forced busing a form of "terrorist racism";.....<snip>....Today in 2004, thanks to forced busing, the Boston Public Schools are 70-80% 'black & hispanic' in total violation of the 1964 Racial Imbalance Act, yet nothing is being done!

1. What are you talking about? Forced busing? Care to elaborate? Have a source, Patrick?

2. Forced to go to a particular school based on skin color? I doubt that very much. Once again, sources, evidence, anything at all to supprt this remarkable claim?

3. Define what you mean by "terrorist racism". I know, you already tried. Try again.

4. Does the 70-80% of non-caucasians attending these Boston schools that you reference reflect the area demographic?

Patrick, we need references for your claimed "facts" here, particularly since they seem to be a little far-fetched.

Until all racism is stopped in this country against the Polish American, Irish American, etc... and the Afro-American, institutionalized racism like Affirmative Action will only perpetuate racism, not end it.

You have got to be kidding.


Oh, one other thing. You managed to contradict yourself in a very glaring way, I'll post the quote, you see if you can find it.

Also, color-coding human beings is racist, so becareful when you use the term 'white'

thanks to forced busing, the Boston Public Schools are 70-80% 'black & hispanic'

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Actually Glen, that was me

.


1. What are you talking about? Forced busing? Care to elaborate? Have a source, Patrick?

2. Forced to go to a particular school based on skin color? I doubt that very much. Once again, sources, evidence, anything at all to supprt this remarkable claim?

3. Define what you mean by "terrorist racism". I know, you already tried. Try again.

4. Does the 70-80% of non-caucasians attending these Boston schools that you reference reflect the area demographic?

Patrick, we need references for your claimed "facts" here, particularly since they seem to be a little far-fetched.

You have got to be kidding.


Oh, one other thing. You managed to contradict yourself in a very glaring way, I'll post the quote, you see if you can find it.

There is no contradiction in any of my posts. By the way, get a book on English Grammar and look up 'sentence fragment', because they have no meaning.

 

[Flatlander]

There is no contradiction in any of my posts.

I guess you couldn't find it. Gee, too bad. I'm sure you are the only one who didn't get it, though. I guess it'll be our inside joke. You being on the outside of that one.

By the way, get a book on English Grammar and look up 'sentence fragment', because they have no meaning.

This is particularly ironic. Nice riposte.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

I guess you couldn't find it. Gee, too bad. I'm sure you are the only one who didn't get it, though. I guess it'll be our inside joke. You being on the outside of that one.This is particularly ironic. Nice riposte.

I'm curious to read if you even know what a 'contradiction' consists? Tell me what you think was a contradiction in my post, and I will tell you if you are correct. And you still need to look up 'sentence fragment' so you don't take things out of context.