Links can get moved out of art specific forums into the general forum if they apply to multiple arts, to give the thread more exposure and to allow others to respond. McDojo is a pretty universal term for a belt-factory.
Mc Dojo
- Thread starter ARNIS PRINCESS
- Start date
DoxN4cer
Purple Belt
ARNIS PRINCESS said:
A lot of bun and no meat.
I like that one. :rofl:DoxN4cer said:
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
What constitutes a McDojo/McDojang?
1. Schools that emphasize style over substance. When students are competing with each other and the Instructor for the flashiest uniform and prettiest belt. Uniforms are pretty utilitarian. They don't have to be fancy and won't make you a better student if they are. If you suck, a red satin uniform won't change that.
2. Schools that emphasize money over integrity. The Instructor is not there to get you to buy everything he has to sell. Granted, some gear is nice to have, but the class should not be about having to buy things. And anything you do buy should be worth the money.
3. An Instructor with clearly defined credentials and history. Any legitimate Instructor should be able to tell you exactly where he came from, where he studied, who his Instructor is, whether he still practices with that Instructor, and what Organization he belongs to. If an Instructor cannot clearly state any of these and cannot or will not provide proper documentation and certification, run. Run fast.
4. Granted, a new student won't be able to pick out nuances in technique. But if the technique just plain looks bad, it means the Instructor and his assistants are not taking the time to develop their students. Either through carelessness or because they suck themselves.
5. Beware of schools that try to be all things to all people (Joe Kim's Tae Kwon Do/Hapkido/BJJ/Choi Kwang Do/Karate School.). Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, Karate, and the others are separate arts, with separate programs.
1. Schools that emphasize style over substance. When students are competing with each other and the Instructor for the flashiest uniform and prettiest belt. Uniforms are pretty utilitarian. They don't have to be fancy and won't make you a better student if they are. If you suck, a red satin uniform won't change that.
2. Schools that emphasize money over integrity. The Instructor is not there to get you to buy everything he has to sell. Granted, some gear is nice to have, but the class should not be about having to buy things. And anything you do buy should be worth the money.
3. An Instructor with clearly defined credentials and history. Any legitimate Instructor should be able to tell you exactly where he came from, where he studied, who his Instructor is, whether he still practices with that Instructor, and what Organization he belongs to. If an Instructor cannot clearly state any of these and cannot or will not provide proper documentation and certification, run. Run fast.
4. Granted, a new student won't be able to pick out nuances in technique. But if the technique just plain looks bad, it means the Instructor and his assistants are not taking the time to develop their students. Either through carelessness or because they suck themselves.
5. Beware of schools that try to be all things to all people (Joe Kim's Tae Kwon Do/Hapkido/BJJ/Choi Kwang Do/Karate School.). Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, Karate, and the others are separate arts, with separate programs.
Hi Arnis Princess,
To me the McDojo has questionable business practices and the focus is on collecting the fee. Here are two examples:
...My niece attends a Ju Jitsu McDojo where the business practices are questionable in my opinion. I attended her brown belt test (she was 16 at the time), but before the adults and teens tested the children tested and the head instructor spent 20 minutes lecturing the children and their parents about things associated with making payments, and it was to me very inappropriate, especially since he said little else. Also when she would miss a few weeks of class the instructor would have one of his black belts make a high pressure call to her to try and convince her to return to class. This to me again was inappropriate. Adults should not be calling children. It is the parents who must sign the contracts and are responsible if a call is to be made at all it should be to the parent. If my sister, or another parent missed a payment the head instructor or another high ranking black belt would announce it to my niece in class, or to any other child whose parents missed payments. They also push the high priced video tapes that they make themselves as part of their curriculum, and their lobby is set up to be all about the marketing of goods. My sister complains about it to me all the time, but my niece is happy learning with her friends so they continue to put up with it all. My sister wishes that she had investigated more before allowing her daughter to get involved at this particular school.
Another example came to me from one of my training partners. He attended a school where his instructor was all about money. The instructor handed him his green belt for 25 dollars without any type of evaluation or discussion of his skills or anything. It made him feel that he didn't really earn the belt. He told me he felt it was just about the money and he was very uncomfortable with the whole thing.
MJ:asian:
To me the McDojo has questionable business practices and the focus is on collecting the fee. Here are two examples:
...My niece attends a Ju Jitsu McDojo where the business practices are questionable in my opinion. I attended her brown belt test (she was 16 at the time), but before the adults and teens tested the children tested and the head instructor spent 20 minutes lecturing the children and their parents about things associated with making payments, and it was to me very inappropriate, especially since he said little else. Also when she would miss a few weeks of class the instructor would have one of his black belts make a high pressure call to her to try and convince her to return to class. This to me again was inappropriate. Adults should not be calling children. It is the parents who must sign the contracts and are responsible if a call is to be made at all it should be to the parent. If my sister, or another parent missed a payment the head instructor or another high ranking black belt would announce it to my niece in class, or to any other child whose parents missed payments. They also push the high priced video tapes that they make themselves as part of their curriculum, and their lobby is set up to be all about the marketing of goods. My sister complains about it to me all the time, but my niece is happy learning with her friends so they continue to put up with it all. My sister wishes that she had investigated more before allowing her daughter to get involved at this particular school.
Another example came to me from one of my training partners. He attended a school where his instructor was all about money. The instructor handed him his green belt for 25 dollars without any type of evaluation or discussion of his skills or anything. It made him feel that he didn't really earn the belt. He told me he felt it was just about the money and he was very uncomfortable with the whole thing.
MJ:asian:
kenpo tiger
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You also should ask the instructor who is is CURRENTLY training with. I had a tkd instructor who had separated from YH Park, with whom he had trained his entire ma career, and he did not have another instructor after that. It made it difficult for the advanced students after a while because he was great teaching the beginners, but once we all started getting up to black, he was 'rusty'. Nice enough guy but not the teacher for me. Revolving door at that dojang - adults as well as kids. He's too focused on his kickboxing side business, which he teaches. It makes more $$ for him than the tkd.
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
Very good point.
Tae Kwon Do and other arts are full of people who have broken away from their Instructor or no longer are under him, for whatever reason (generally because they were kicked out or a money issue). Since they no longer have a primary Instructor, they no longer are really learning the higher stages of their art. They can teach basics, but are unable to produce higher black belts, since they themselves don't know higher material. So they state it takes 10 years to black belt, or make up their own technique and call it a new style.
And Koreans are just as guilty as Americans.
Tae Kwon Do and other arts are full of people who have broken away from their Instructor or no longer are under him, for whatever reason (generally because they were kicked out or a money issue). Since they no longer have a primary Instructor, they no longer are really learning the higher stages of their art. They can teach basics, but are unable to produce higher black belts, since they themselves don't know higher material. So they state it takes 10 years to black belt, or make up their own technique and call it a new style.
And Koreans are just as guilty as Americans.
kenpo tiger
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It IS a shame.
Kenpo Mama
3rd Black Belt
MichiganTKD said:
This is truly a comprehensive list of the McDojo menu! Thank you, oh can i have some nunchukus to go with that ?????
Yes Kenpo Tiger it truly is!
Donna :wink2:
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
Another sign: Any Tae Kwon Do school that advertizes itself as "Kim's Karate" but teaches TKD. You mean in this day and age people don't know what Tae Kwon Do is? If you teach Tae Kwon Do (or Kempo or Karate or Kung Fu) advertize it as such. What are you ashamed of? Most people probably wouldn't know Chung Do Kwan from Moo Duk Kwan, but they know Tae Kwon Do.
Also, Instructors who are a little too eager to have newspaper, radio, TV, and/or magazine ads. The best advertizing is word of mouth, because people won't recommend bad schools to their friends and coworkers. All the advertising in the world won't help you if your school is not good. People will figure it out.
Also, Instructors who are a little too eager to have newspaper, radio, TV, and/or magazine ads. The best advertizing is word of mouth, because people won't recommend bad schools to their friends and coworkers. All the advertising in the world won't help you if your school is not good. People will figure it out.
pete
Master Black Belt
:boing2:
i'll have mine with extra chi...
all laughs aside, advertising is not necessarily a bad thing. after all, we're not communists...
mj-hi-yah said:
Word of mouth is a good tool, BUT you can't rely on it alone. I own a school and I have bills to pay. If I relied on word of mouth only my school wouldn't be open.
:asian:
kenpo tiger
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MJ, Pete and I train together. Our instructor does not advertise and doesn't really need to. The people in our dojo are great - across the board, no exceptions. It's a very family-oriented place. I know all the parents of my students because both bring their chid(ren) to class, either together or alternate weeks - and, in some instances, I know aunts, uncles, and grandparents. Not many schools can claim that.
A
auxprix
Guest
I think we should make a distinction between advertisement and excessive advertisement. Certainly, there is nothing wrong with doing a little promotion for your school. My Dojo does not really advertise in the traditional sense, but it doesn't shy away from being featured on a local TV news report or promoting its tournement within the martial arts comunity. Advertising can be important, especially if your art is not well known. It's hard enough to get new adults to feel confident enough to walk through the door.
The other side of this is the over advertiser. Schools that have ads in every publication dealing with martial arts. They use phrases like "Proven street effective" and make claims that other systems are useless for self defense. When I was looking for a new Dojo (I am a Judoka) I went to check out a BJJ place because it was more conveniently located. This was a school that does a good deal of advertising, and it is a part of a network of studios around the area. When I went in, I was given a cheap pamphlet outlining why BJJ is better than other systems. This sort of thing always sickens me. I know that it was produced by the management of this company, because the practitioners and the Master were all very nice (they even recommended I check out the Judo Dojo that I am currently a member at). What I'm getting at is that advertisement is not a bad thing, but you should not disrespect other systems to bring in new members under the premise that your art is better.
The other side of this is the over advertiser. Schools that have ads in every publication dealing with martial arts. They use phrases like "Proven street effective" and make claims that other systems are useless for self defense. When I was looking for a new Dojo (I am a Judoka) I went to check out a BJJ place because it was more conveniently located. This was a school that does a good deal of advertising, and it is a part of a network of studios around the area. When I went in, I was given a cheap pamphlet outlining why BJJ is better than other systems. This sort of thing always sickens me. I know that it was produced by the management of this company, because the practitioners and the Master were all very nice (they even recommended I check out the Judo Dojo that I am currently a member at). What I'm getting at is that advertisement is not a bad thing, but you should not disrespect other systems to bring in new members under the premise that your art is better.
auxprix said:
Agreed. :asian:
pete
Master Black Belt
kenpo tiger said:
that's his choice~
Flatlander
Grandmaster
The entire question of whether or not to advertise can't be taken as an absolute in its reflection of potential Mcdojoism. Market conditions will be a mitigating factor as well.
Some instructors have time to run multiple classes, some do not. Some instructors have a lot of usable space, others do not. Let's assume we have an instructor who has all the time in the world, and a huge space. Why not make use of it?
Now what market are we in? If we're talking about a city of one million or more, word of mouth would take a long time to reach all the potential students out there, and I would posit longer in larger centers.
If you're in a town of 500, advertising probably isn't necessary at all.
What about seminars? I think those NEED to be advertised. That's the whole point. Have a seminar every now and then, get as many people together as you can to train - current students and new ones to whom you can expose the art. It just doesn't work without advertising.
If you already, as one qualified to teach, have a full time job, family, etc., presumably this leaves less instruction time, and so we're talking less people capacity. Do you need to advertise? Probably not.
I think that the possible variations of circumstances wherein advertising comes into play makes the issue of advertising/not advertising a poor metric upon which to judge a dojo. What do they advertise? That's a different story.....
Some instructors have time to run multiple classes, some do not. Some instructors have a lot of usable space, others do not. Let's assume we have an instructor who has all the time in the world, and a huge space. Why not make use of it?
Now what market are we in? If we're talking about a city of one million or more, word of mouth would take a long time to reach all the potential students out there, and I would posit longer in larger centers.
If you're in a town of 500, advertising probably isn't necessary at all.
What about seminars? I think those NEED to be advertised. That's the whole point. Have a seminar every now and then, get as many people together as you can to train - current students and new ones to whom you can expose the art. It just doesn't work without advertising.
If you already, as one qualified to teach, have a full time job, family, etc., presumably this leaves less instruction time, and so we're talking less people capacity. Do you need to advertise? Probably not.
I think that the possible variations of circumstances wherein advertising comes into play makes the issue of advertising/not advertising a poor metric upon which to judge a dojo. What do they advertise? That's a different story.....
kenpo tiger
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I agree. As has been stated (at great length elsewhere), the McDojos of this world promise everything and delivery falls short of the promises in many cases.flatlander said:
My former tkd instructor has always advertised and always has lots of people come to see what it's about. I suppose that's the good part of advertising - getting interest going for your school.
My current instructor - as Pete pointed out - chooses not to advertise. We still don't know why.
loki09789
Senior Master
If nearly every conversation turns into a testimonial/verbal promotion of your school/system/organization it is McDojo advertising. If every conversation finishes with an invite in the tone of "once you've gone X, no other school will compare"kenpo tiger said:
If the paper/media ads push the fitness angle, yet the only sweating is in 10 mins or less of warm ups and stretching and a sparring class availabe one day a week AND there are no strength/conditioning elements to the regular work out it is McDojo advertising. Sort of like the false claims about what arts are taught, McDojo advertising is false promises of what to expect from the training.
