England playing at Twickenham? I wish the All Blacks could play in the 6N....
SSAFA? Why mate?
Off to work at moment, I'll PM you when I get back.
May I be the first to say sorry to the British
- Thread starter jetboatdeath
- Start date
Off to work at moment, I'll PM you when I get back.
grydth
Senior Master
While countries would go to war over trivial and personal slights in the 1800's, I can't imagine this faux pas changing the fundamental relations between the nations. I am not going to bed tonight worried about war with the UK being imminent. Obama will learn from it, the Brits will persevere and the alliance will carry on.
The only thing that does bother me is, had Bush done it, the US media would be filled with condemnations of how (allegedly) stupid Bush was. While I far prefer Obama to Bush, media idolatry and gross favoritism are always a matter for concern.
The only thing that does bother me is, had Bush done it, the US media would be filled with condemnations of how (allegedly) stupid Bush was. While I far prefer Obama to Bush, media idolatry and gross favoritism are always a matter for concern.
All this over a pencil holder and a plaque?
Seems par for the course with England.
The talking hat.
The queen being alive since 1776...
We know the Brits can't and/or won't do much other than offer an offended sniff and maybe a strongly worded letter.
Seems par for the course with England.
The talking hat.
The queen being alive since 1776...
We know the Brits can't and/or won't do much other than offer an offended sniff and maybe a strongly worded letter.
It was the American press that was getting it's knickers in a twist not the British press or the people, we have more important things on our minds at the moment, the imminent liklihood of N Ireland kicking off again so it shows how much you actually now about what goes on here. We barely noticed. Your Obama haters are making a big deal about it we're not, we don't care.
Oh and England? No, son, it's either the United Kingdom or Great Britain. England is one country of the few we have here.
No idea what talking hat and the queen bit are about, want to elaborate?
Gordon Nore
Senior Master
Thank you for reiterating this important point. GB, as you point out, is in a state of grief over recent atrocities. It faces the same economic crisis as the USA and the rest of the world. There are too many pressing issues to count. The Churchill and Region One DVDs are a low priority, I'm sure.
The bust of Churchill actually belongs to us, it wasn't a gift to the Americans and is worth a lot of money. It was lent to President Bush for the first term of his office after 9/11, he wanted it hang on to it but there's no reason why President Obama should have to have it if he doesn't want to.
Churchill was the finest war leader going but a lousy politician, the people voted him out of office after the war. He's remembered for his leadership during the war but if you look at what he did before and after the war his record is not good. He was a Liberal for a while too.
Churchill was the finest war leader going but a lousy politician, the people voted him out of office after the war. He's remembered for his leadership during the war but if you look at what he did before and after the war his record is not good. He was a Liberal for a while too.
I haven't heard the Clinton's make a big deal out of it, although they seem to be the type that may be enjoying it.
While Obama apologists may want to spin the the lapse into simply being about Churchill and DVDs (neglecting the press conference and formal state dinner -hope they didn't send a staffer to McDonalds for the dinner), one doesn't need to be an Obama hater to think that any representative of the USA, especially the President, should act with respect and proper etiquette.
The fear of the "ugly American" stereotype may be what is driving many people to call out our representatives that fail decorum. I should hope such an exercise in respect is non-partisan.
Maybe there is an escape clause for acting responsibly when a leader is "too tired"? Which may have the Clinton's smiling even more.
Barack Obama 'too tired' to give proper welcome to Gordon Brown
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...d-to-give-proper-welcome-to-Gordon-Brown.html
The talking hat incident's referenced here:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE1DB163AF934A25756C0A967958260
The 1776 thing:
Gaffes to be sure, but not the stuff of international incidents. (Freedonia excepted.)
Last edited by a moderator:
No one 'took offence' at either of those incidents. Being British we always see the funny side of incidents like that, the times I've seen either incident on the television it's always been in a comedy situation.
We're not all fans of the Royal Family anyway.
We're not all fans of the Royal Family anyway.
Gordon Nore
Senior Master
I hadn't realized that. I recalled only that it was in the Oval Office and that President Obama's team was going to send it to the British Embassy. So, in that respect, his actions were diplomatically proper I suppose. Nothing to get ones knickers in a twist about.
It's a bronze by Sir Jacob Epstein and it's worth thousands of pounds and as much as Blair liked Bush, he can't give away something worth that much belonging to the nation.
http://epstein.3forming.com/Gallery/Three_Dimensional_Works_by_Jacob_Epstein/Page/3.aspx
Diplomatic etiquette is the art of one upmanship done in genteel surroundings, diplomatic talk is saying what you don't mean.
I wouldn't expect a politicians to know the nuances of such diplomatic present giving, thats why he has a staff. I'd suggest it was his staff to blame either through ignorance or design. Perhaps someone out there wants Obama to look inadequate?
Presents given to British Prime Ministers don't become their property, they are keep for the nation however at the end of their term of office the PMs are allowed to buy anything they have been 'given' if they want to keep it.
American ambassadors to the Court of St James seem to be alone in the fact that they aren't diplomats, being a political appointee not a member of the diplomatic service so perhaps there's room for a lot of mistakes to be made when the American Ambassador recommends to the President such things as presents or how things work here.
Our politicians may want a close working relationship with American politicians but we don't, Blair's devotion to Bush has cost us dear in service peoples lives. We'd be happy just trading and being 'cousins' with American, we don't want our Prime Minister being that pally with a President again.
http://epstein.3forming.com/Gallery/Three_Dimensional_Works_by_Jacob_Epstein/Page/3.aspx
Diplomatic etiquette is the art of one upmanship done in genteel surroundings, diplomatic talk is saying what you don't mean.
I wouldn't expect a politicians to know the nuances of such diplomatic present giving, thats why he has a staff. I'd suggest it was his staff to blame either through ignorance or design. Perhaps someone out there wants Obama to look inadequate?
Presents given to British Prime Ministers don't become their property, they are keep for the nation however at the end of their term of office the PMs are allowed to buy anything they have been 'given' if they want to keep it.
American ambassadors to the Court of St James seem to be alone in the fact that they aren't diplomats, being a political appointee not a member of the diplomatic service so perhaps there's room for a lot of mistakes to be made when the American Ambassador recommends to the President such things as presents or how things work here.
Our politicians may want a close working relationship with American politicians but we don't, Blair's devotion to Bush has cost us dear in service peoples lives. We'd be happy just trading and being 'cousins' with American, we don't want our Prime Minister being that pally with a President again.
myusername
Brown Belt
Gordon Nore
Senior Master
Fast-forward fifty years: There will be a photograph of those Region One DVDs in a textbook (assuming they still exist), along with a caption explaining what a DVD is.
We wont do either Margie! We'll just take the p*ss instead
Dead right we will! :ultracool
Just learnt that one of our students has been killed in Afghanistan by a roadside bomb. this is what Blair and Bush did. If Obama never talks to our government again I shan't care.
Point being, nobody takes them seriously. Much like the incidents that earned the initial apology in the thread.
myusername
Brown Belt
Sorry to hear of your loss.
I am far from sure that you have the right of that, Marginal.
The Great Game has never gone away and whilst America might be able to claim that it hasn't been 'in it' long enough to be expected to understand the rules (or in fact does not want to play at all), the way the world works is still much the same in it's upper echelons as it ever has been since nations came to function as entities.
These things are subtle and it is only really in the past few years that peons like us have even had a sniff that they happened.
As one of those peons, I have to say that I must be a blip on the "noone takes them seriously" monitor. If 'you' chaps don't want or value our help anymore, the noted faux pas is a pretty good way of saying it as far as the Diplomatic Service is concerned.
The Great Game has never gone away and whilst America might be able to claim that it hasn't been 'in it' long enough to be expected to understand the rules (or in fact does not want to play at all), the way the world works is still much the same in it's upper echelons as it ever has been since nations came to function as entities.
These things are subtle and it is only really in the past few years that peons like us have even had a sniff that they happened.
As one of those peons, I have to say that I must be a blip on the "noone takes them seriously" monitor
. If 'you' chaps don't want or value our help anymore, the noted faux pas is a pretty good way of saying it as far as the Diplomatic Service is concerned.
I hope they don't want our help, I hope that we won't get dragged into their pissing contests with the "A-Rabs" ever again, I hope we never get asked to help invade countries ever again. I hope we have leaders that have the balls to say to America, yes we like you but we aren't going to let anymore of our people die because you had a president that wanted to outdo his daddy when it came to invading "Eye-raq" and we had a spineless **** of a Prime Minister.
I'm sick of all the stupid talk that justifies what we are doing in these wars, I'm sick of the mealy mouthed politicians who carp on about this or that and the sniping between them. Brown and the government have said nothing about the DVDs for all we bloody know Brown said thats what he wanted. Diplomacy will carry on as it always has, too much is being read into all this. If relations between us were really that strained everything would have been icily correct, in 'families' there's always something that goes wrong. If there's any fault perhaps it's that America is taking us for granted, thats what the dvds probably meant.
After all these years what the hell are either side doing giving presents paid for by tax payers anyway?
In the intel world the 'great game' is spying, taken from Rudyard Kipling's 'Kim', a man who lost his own son to war.
I'm sick of all the stupid talk that justifies what we are doing in these wars, I'm sick of the mealy mouthed politicians who carp on about this or that and the sniping between them. Brown and the government have said nothing about the DVDs for all we bloody know Brown said thats what he wanted. Diplomacy will carry on as it always has, too much is being read into all this. If relations between us were really that strained everything would have been icily correct, in 'families' there's always something that goes wrong. If there's any fault perhaps it's that America is taking us for granted, thats what the dvds probably meant.
After all these years what the hell are either side doing giving presents paid for by tax payers anyway?
In the intel world the 'great game' is spying, taken from Rudyard Kipling's 'Kim', a man who lost his own son to war.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
I wouldn't take these things so seriously. The diplomatic niceties don't seem to match up well to the actual relationship. Take our relationship with Russia over the last 8 years. Putin and Bush had by all accounts a very friendly, personal relationship. Bush could "see into his soul." They held hands and said nice things about each other and practically wrote Putin + Bush = BFF4EVA on their notebooks during 4th period. The diplomatic niceties were definitely there.
However, during the same period, there were extraordinary tensions between the two countries. Clashes over SDI, the Ukraine, the recent war, spheres of influence and all the rest. The diplomatic relationship didn't appear to ease any of that.
