Master's relationship to/arrangement with their student's school

[skribs]

I'm so sorry you're going through this, Skribs... Politics suck.

My concern at this point is, asusming the test does go forward, will he be evaluating you fairly and honestly?

That is a concern I have as well.

Not even about his character, but just that he doesn't always remember the material exactly the same way. He's really good with the colored belt and 1st degree material, but waffles on 2nd and up. And if I do it differently than he expects THAT DAY, I'm "wrong".

There's also the history with a test I took a while back where he hallucinated mistakes I made in order to give me a "pass" instead of "outstanding".

I went into this because last year he apologized to my Dad for the way he treated our family when we told him we were moving away. This was supposed to be our reconciliation.

 

[skribs]

He does have a record of poor communication with his staff. Apparently this all runs deep. (And every miscommunication is of course: my fault).

What I remember before I left in 2022 is that he told me if I want to use his proprietary curriculum, that I need to franchise under him. I told him I would use my own curriculum. That's when he stopped having time for me. He kept asking when I was leaving, I kept telling him after I'd get my 4th Dan, but eventually realized it wasn't going to happen. He had been cutting my teaching hours, cancelling private lessons, stopped teaching me my material during black belt classes, and prepared for life without me. That's why I left.

What he remembers is that he told me that if I want to get 4th degree under him, that I need to franchise under him. That I didn't agree to that, and that's why he didn't test me for 4th degree.

I'm actually going to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one and say he may simply not be remembering correctly exactly what was said. This was 3 or 4 years ago that this conversation happened at this point, and like I said in my previous post: he doesn't always have a perfect memory.

However, this means that when I told him I want to get a 4th degree under him, based on his remembering that I declined to test for 4th degree previously due to the requirement to franchise under him, that I was telling him I wanted to franchise under him as a branch.

Same thing with me expecting to get a KKW certificate. He remembers me telling him I didn't need it. He doesn't remember telling me I should get it anyway. His paperwork didn't say I would get a Kukkiwon certificate, and he has an email of me saying that the paperwork "looks good". That's because when I wrote the email, I was thinking I was going to get it. He pulled the, "If you weren't sure, you should've asked", which is a horrible cop out when there's a miscommunication. As I said earlier, there were a bunch of reasons for me to think I was getting a Kukkiwon certificate: I'm doing the Taegeuk forms (which are not a part of his curriculum), he is a Kukkiwon school, our previous conversation where he said he would give me both, the similarity of the paperwork and the requirement for my KKW Dan certificate, "Kukkiwon" being in the Korean word list. But he is technically correct that I agreed to the paperwork and the paperwork doesn't specify Kukkiwon certificate anywhere. So it's my fault.

(And if I push back too much I do think I won't get anything at all from him).

He even said if he gave me both, he couldn't give me his certificate and KKW certificate at the same time, which is utter bullcrap because I've gotten the other degrees at the same time. Unlike his memory of the conversation, I don't give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Today, he almost cancelled my test entirely (even for the unaffiliated certificate).

At the end of the day, his suggestion was the best version I've had throughout all of this: I open my school, and if I need to promote anyone before I get my KKW cert/license, reach out to him and he would help me. That would be a fair arrangement between my school and him. But it's still not a fair arrangement between me and him that he won't just promote me himself.

This would require you to trust him to assist you with that, and not add any additional conditions when the oressure is on. Which from what you've stated ahout him I give a near 0% chance of happening.

 

[skribs]

This would require you to trust him to assist you with that, and not add any additional conditions when the oressure is on. Which from what you've stated ahout him I give a near 0% chance of happening.

I do think there would be strings attached, but if he's providing a service I can't, it makes sense that there's a benefit to him.

The fact he is withholding the ability for me to provide the service is the issue.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I do think there would be strings attached, but if he's providing a service I can't, it makes sense that there's a benefit to him.

The fact he is withholding the ability for me to provide the service is the issue.

The issue is not that there are strings attached. It's that you won't know what those strings are until you ask for the service, regardless of what he says in advance.

And if you're still doing the test, even if you're there in person I would still get it in an email what he is/isn't agreeing to give you (all assuming you pass the test).

 

[skribs]

And if you're still doing the test, even if you're there in person I would still get it in an email what he is/isn't agreeing to give you (all assuming you pass the test).

Eh, I don't need it. I wouldn't take any action on it. It does me no good to have proof he won't give me something. It doesn't really provide me with leverage in any way, unless I planned on maintaining some business relationship with him (which I don't).

I don't really get involved in mudslinging. If the fight is getting dirty, I just bounce.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Eh, I don't need it. I wouldn't take any action on it. It does me no good to have proof he won't give me something. It doesn't really provide me with leverage in any way, unless I planned on maintaining some business relationship with him (which I don't).

I don't really get involved in mudslinging. If the fight is getting dirty, I just bounce.

It would be purely for the next week, in case he comes back and tries to change it again. Not to share with others (if you don't want to go to the kukkiwon about it, which it sounds like you don't), but so you can point to if he claims another miscommunication.

But you know him best, so I'll lay off that recommendation.

 

[skribs]

It would be purely for the next week, in case he comes back and tries to change it again. Not to share with others (if you don't want to go to the kukkiwon about it, which it sounds like you don't), but so you can point to if he claims another miscommunication.

But you know him best, so I'll lay off that recommendation.

At this point I want to stop arguing. I want him to be at ease with this arrangement, so he's more likely to give me what I want.

I do have in writing that I will be testing for his certificate.

And if things go south, it will be a public enough event that people will see what's happening. There are others testing with me, and everyone at the school knows I'm there to test. To paraphrase Albus Dumbledore, if that happens, I may not be leaving quietly.

Receipts don't matter when we're talking about reputation.

 

[Buka]

I’m sorry you’re going through this, Skribs.

On the bright side, you’re young, have a long road ahead filled with opportunities, you’re articulate and seem to have a good work ethic.

It’s easy to sit here on the sidelines and play the “you should do this and he should do that,” game, but in my opinion he does not deserve a student of your character and skill. And frankly, from what I’ve read, I don’t think he ever did.

I’ve been through eerily similar things. Once in American Karate and once, coincidentally, in Tae Kwon Do.
I have a 4th in TKD. Turned down the 5th just to piss off my instructor. (I never claimed to be bright or of sound mind. But wouldn’t change a damn thing.)

Getting away from both were the two best decisions I ever made in Martial Arts. Were they easy? Hell no. But there ain’t much easy in life and the Arts.

To make a long story short, I have no advice, but I feel all will work out for you in the long run.

 

[skribs]

I never claimed to be bright or of sound mind.

You're being too hard on yourself.

I think you're bright.

 

[Buka]

You're being too hard on yourself.

I think you're bright.

Thanks, buddy, but I am as brilliant as a basket full of puppies.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Thanks, buddy, but I am as brilliant as a basket full of puppies.

About that "agree" emoji I put on this post....

 

[Simfers]

Thanks, buddy, but I am as brilliant as a basket full of puppies.

That's some blinding brilliance, I tell you what.

 

[HighKick]

I feared we would be seeing a post like this at some point.
Clearly the relationship with your instructor is tenuous. All the more reason to have had Everything Locked Down before you ever left home. Every T crossed and every I dotted. That ship has sailed so you are now in damage control. And you have to be willing to do whatever it takes. Money grab or not.
Yes, KKW documents can and have been faked but it is always found out in the end by a simple Dan number search. Plus there are ample resources through KKW to make certain your test would be legitimate.
For certain, I hear wrong doing on both sides throughout the one sided story I have read about your testing ventures. Which I hope you understand speculates things. Something to think about later when you have the time.
I cannot overstate strongly enough that you want to reconcile with your instructor. You have a HUGE investment there and, let’s be frank, he holds the keys to your 4th Dan KKW. At least the easiest keys for you. You are Way too close to the finish line to let something as petty as personalities get in the way. If you chose to go your separate ways you do that AFTER you get your rank, not threaten it beforehand.
I do not understand choosing Not to get your parents involved. They have history with your instructor, are going to be THERE with you, could be the best moderator for you to resolve the issues, and lock things down. Ask for their help. It means more than you think.
I hope it works out for you but it does not look good. Do what you have to do now to secure what you want for the future. Yes, that will mean playing his game for a while.

 

[skribs]

Clearly the relationship with your instructor is tenuous. All the more reason to have had Everything Locked Down before you ever left home. Every T crossed and every I dotted. That ship has sailed so you are now in damage control. And you have to be willing to do whatever it takes. Money grab or not.

It was never going to happen before I left. He was already starting to cut me out of the school, didn't have time to give me private lessons, didn't spend any time on me in class. How long do you get strung along before you bail?

Yes, KKW documents can and have been faked but it is always found out in the end by a simple Dan number search. Plus there are ample resources through KKW to make certain your test would be legitimate.

That's not what we're discussing at all. Nobody has faked any documents.

He made documents that strongly resembled the KKW application form, which led me to believe I was filling out KKW paperwork.

My KKW certificate for 3rd Dan is real, as his his KKW rank.

I cannot overstate strongly enough that you want to reconcile with your instructor. You have a HUGE investment there and, let’s be frank, he holds the keys to your 4th Dan KKW. At least the easiest keys for you. You are Way too close to the finish line to let something as petty as personalities get in the way. If you chose to go your separate ways you do that AFTER you get your rank, not threaten it beforehand.

Sorry, I'm not going back to him after that abuse of power, and your suggestion that I should willingly be a victim is just psychotic.

 

[skribs]

I passed my "4th degree" test. I put "4th degree" in quotes because it's not what I was expecting when I got here to prepare for testing, but at least I do have someone with a 6th degree promoting me to 4th.

It's bittersweet. It's what I was hoping for a while back. I had been convinced (by this Master) that I should at least get a KKW certificate, so that I have the option. And recently that's the option I was thinking about taking.

But now I think I'm done with the politics of it. I think I am going to do what others have suggested, either do a Founder's Belt (which would be a non-degreed black belt outside of the degree system within my potential school) or have some sort of Arbiter role that would allow me to promote people outside of the norms. I don't need more rank myself as long as my students don't hit a ceiling because of it. If there are ways around that, then I really don't care. 4th degree was enough to legitimize me in my eyes.

 

[_Simon_]

I passed my "4th degree" test. I put "4th degree" in quotes because it's not what I was expecting when I got here to prepare for testing, but at least I do have someone with a 6th degree promoting me to 4th.

It's bittersweet. It's what I was hoping for a while back. I had been convinced (by this Master) that I should at least get a KKW certificate, so that I have the option. And recently that's the option I was thinking about taking.

But now I think I'm done with the politics of it. I think I am going to do what others have suggested, either do a Founder's Belt (which would be a non-degreed black belt outside of the degree system within my potential school) or have some sort of Arbiter role that would allow me to promote people outside of the norms. I don't need more rank myself as long as my students don't hit a ceiling because of it. If there are ways around that, then I really don't care. 4th degree was enough to legitimize me in my eyes.

Huge congrats mate. I know this was all a bit of a mess, but still cool you went through with a formal test. Still not easy, and a huge achievement, and all that "stuff" doesn't overshadow that. I have no advice regarding the logistics etc, but moving forwards and onwards, well done

 

[Simfers]

Hey, congrats on the success Skribs! With the dedication you're showing and the amount of thought you're putting into it, I'm sure your new style and school will be fantastic! I wish you all the success in the world!

 

[Buka]

I’ve known Martial Arts instructors that I wouldn’t let babysit my dogs, never mind teach my nephews and nieces.

How good they are as a Martial Artist is neither here nor there, nor is where they sit in the hierarchy of a Martial Arts organization put together by like minded people to benefit mankind without ego, greed or prejudice. (Yeah, I peed my pants writing that.)

Screw all these people.

 

[HighKick]

It was never going to happen before I left. He was already starting to cut me out of the school, didn't have time to give me private lessons, didn't spend any time on me in class. How long do you get strung along before you bail?

That's not what we're discussing at all. Nobody has faked any documents.

He made documents that strongly resembled the KKW application form, which led me to believe I was filling out KKW paperwork.

My KKW certificate for 3rd Dan is real, as his his KKW rank.

Sorry, I'm not going back to him after that abuse of power, and your suggestion that I should willingly be a victim is just psychotic.

Clearly, you completely misunderstand. And refuse to acknowledge who is/was holding the cards at this intersection in your life. Sometimes you just have to see the bigger picture, see what you have to gain, and suck it up. As distasteful as it is sometimes, we all have to do it. This is the impetus of being the bigger person in many cases. Big swing and a miss there.
Let me give you a descriptive to think about: I can (and have) play nice with the sleeziest snakes in my business, a cobra or a grizzly bear to get what I want or need. And Never compromise my integrity. NEVER. This goes back to your 'psychotic' reference which is WAY out of bounds my friend.

Look, I don't know you or your instructor, but you have been quite overt for some time that the two of you do not get along. And your recent endeavor with a couple other schools infer that it isn't all the original instructor's/school's fault. Would you acknowledge that is a reasonable assumption?

Absolutely, it should have and could have happened before you left. That is on you.

I never said your 3rd Dan was not legit (I have no way or want to check it). All the more reason to suck it up and get your 4th Dan with the path of least resistance (including the shortest amount of time). If you were availed the chance to do a legit test in that small of a window? C'mon man. Doesn't pass the smell test.

Can you start your own brand of MA's? Absolutely. But it is a Much harder row to hoe for anyone. At least anyone wanting to run a commercial sized school. Especially starting from scratch with No parent school to fall back on. You have truly put yourself on an island. Brand (WT) recognition is huge, whether you ever really follow/use the brand or not. If you want to be a TKD school that goes to tournaments, you are either a school who practices/trains for WT tournaments AND is recognized/federated with said tournament circuit or go to open tournaments (which may have some of the same restrictions). They are very, very different creatures and do not overlap or play well together. Never have, never will.

This is part of why I said in my last post ever T & I should have been checked. It is a lot of money and time investment, so isn't that a reasonable expectation from both sides. It smells and sounds like you were the one trying to do an end-around and it did not work.
You have tried to shortcut the process at every step. And frankly as a long-time practitioner and lover of the martial arts I find it cringe-worthy and offensive.

You have already come out lambasting your old instructor and the whole test preamble. So, what good is it, really? How will it help you in the bigger picture? How does it better you as a martial artist or person? How can you feel remotely good about it? I could keep going, but do you see where I am going?
If your old instructor and school are so bad, why were you willing to go back to them in the first place? It just doesn't make sense.
In fact, you realize the bridge you (mostly) burned and ran back across it before it was too late was the only choice you had. And would have any time soon.
Bad form dude.

That said, I hope it lights a hell of a fire under you. One the allows you to stop talking and start training, the right way.