Martial arts shouldn't take years to learn.

[drop bear]

I'm very impressed! I love Aikido, my dad wants to take it up. I'm constantly encouraging him to do it, but he's got TOO much damn pride. When he was young, he took up a few Judo classes, & a girl ended up throwing him to the ground. He was so embarrassed, he never went back!

He's just a street fighter.

May I ask what your favourite art is, if you have a preference for one of them, that is?

I've HEARD that if you do a lot of martial arts at once, it can sometimes get confusing, as you're using a different approach every time. Is that true? Or is it subjective?

Yeah look i really hate that approach that you can only do one martial art. I do three or four within my school.

I just dont understand how people can learn 8 different lanuages, 5 different dance disciplines. Shoot different guns. Go to athletics and compete in different jumps or different running styles. paint a picture in different styles.

Everything else you can get your brain around different nuances of the same concept exept martial arts.

I refuse to believe it is any more complicated or the people doing martial arts are any less capable.

 

[Encho]

I'm very impressed! I love Aikido, my dad wants to take it up. I'm constantly encouraging him to do it, but he's got TOO much damn pride. When he was young, he took up a few Judo classes, & a girl ended up throwing him to the ground. He was so embarrassed, he never went back!

He's just a street fighter.

May I ask what your favourite art is, if you have a preference for one of them, that is?

I've HEARD that if you do a lot of martial arts at once, it can sometimes get confusing, as you're using a different approach every time. Is that true? Or is it subjective?

Dear Tarry it really is not difficult to do many different arts as each art has its own methods of doing things, You may see in other art similar things. I enjoy doing different arts.

 

[Chris Parker]

And thank you for sharing your's. I think I read in some other post briefly where you shared your experience. I commend you for your experience and insight.

No problem.

My apologies for lumping in and incorrectly pairing some quotes together, but I really just want to give one answer. Thank you for the clarification on the tactical vs godai discussion. I didn't mean to sound as if I was implying one should internally change their energy based on the technique, but as you described, doing it from a tactical perspective. As I mentioned before, I'm not familiar with Stephen Hayes' principles on the godai. I did find your explanation on the Gogyo to be very well explained though.

Thank you again.

Thanks. When it comes to "internally chang(ing) energy", I didn't read that in your answer at all... I was simply attempting to clarify that your description of a tactical application of elemental concepts was not the same as Tarrycat appears to be describing... so all good there!

One thing I didn't mention is that, despite the common English translations, the same "elements" in the Godai and Gogyo aren't necessarily the same.... most notably Earth. In the Godai, "earth" is chi (地), with the intent being more in line with the ground, or the surface of the Earth (as distinct from the Heavens), whereas the Gogyo uses the term Do (土), which has more of a meaning of "the soil/dirt", instead of simply the ground (as a surface). Take that for what it's worth....

Thank you for the time & the effort you've put into your diligent response, Chris. I very much appreciate it & yes, I would gladly turn to you if I need any information, advice, or guidance, as I can see that you are very experienced. I will keep you on my list. I really didn't mean to cause any confusion, or mean to be rude to some people on here. Some comments I feel was a bit overwhelming & I felt like I had to defend myself, naturally.

Yeah, I figured that was likely the case... just remember, this is a text-based format... and tonality and body language can be easily missed and misunderstood... often posts aren't as harsh as they first appear...

I will make a mental note of everything.

Cool.

I have spoken to some of the students in my class - we do some To-Shin-Do in-between (given the Godai), but we train under the Bujinkan.

Hmm... this is not so much the case. You are either a part of the Bujinkan, or you're not. You're either a part of Toshindo, or you're not. And you can't be both.

And when it comes to your school, the Facebook page is full of mentions of Toshindo South Africa, the introductory video (dated August 12th this year) starts with the words "Toshindo South Africa Presents...", mentions Toshindo South Africa at the end, and gives a website address of www.toshindosa.co.za... the school address I found is www.ninkaibujutsu.co.za, which mentions your teacher being awarded a Shodan in "ninjutsu" (no organisation) from a Emanuel Maisel in 1989... which itself raises a few questions, as the only mention I can find outside of this is a mention of him beginning with Roy Ron Shihan of the Genbukan in 1991, and leaving in 1995... followed by a Nidan in Toshindo in 2010 from Stephen Hayes and (your teacher's personal teacher in the US) Brett "Dotoshi" (a Toshindo "warrior name" given to yudansha, for some reason...) Varnum, who attained a Godan in the Bujinkan in 2003 (before the split between Hayes and the Bujinkan), and later a 7th Dan in Toshindo in 2011... making him a Toshindo practitioner and teacher.

In other words, pretty much everything points to your dojo being part of the Toshindo (Stephen Hayes') organisation... as that is where the bulk of your teachers authority comes from (Shodan is not a teaching grade in the Bujinkan or Genbukan, so that conveys no authority there). There is also the distinct possibility, knowing some of South Africa's "ninjutsu" community that Emanuel Maisel, when awarding the Shodan in "ninjutsu" was teaching one of the more fraudulent "Koga-ryu" groups that seem to pop up there semi-regularly, hence no organisation being mentioned... and no mention of Maisel's prior training to the Genbukan, which he began training in after awarding your teacher a Shodan.

None of this is to disparage your teacher, although I will also say, and this is kinda a side note, that there are some rather unusual, or questionable things I find on your website... mostly in terminology and use of Japanese. Your schools name, for instance, is a bit unusual... but before I say anything about it, can you give me a translation/meaning for Ninkai Bujutsu (忍海武術), and tell me what the kanji on the other side of the badge is meant to say (忍法貫)? If you can't, that's okay... honestly, I don't expect you to be able to... but I'd be interested in your teachers answers if he is happy to answer.

I'm aware that we are not allowed to cross-train, due to the politics involved, & I respect that, but I'm not the type of person to disregard people in my personal life just because they belong to another organisation (I will not cross train, though). I care about the fact that we all share the same passion, & that's just not how my mind or my heart works. To me, there will always be a place for everyone. You never know what the next person may teach you; just like you have taught me now. Your knowledge overflows & that makes you very valuable. I appreciate your gentle approach, as I AM very sensitive.

Yeah, I didn't suggest disregarding anyone or what they say... simply to be aware that different organisations and teachers have different perspectives on these arts... for example the Santo Tonko no Kata from Togakure Ryu has been taught as a Menkyo level of Gyokko Ryu in the Genbukan, but not anywhere else... Manaka of the Jinenkan teaches that the Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu and Jutaijutsu are two syllabus' of the same school, but others teach that they are two separate lineages (which is a view I subscribe to, by the way)... there are different contents to some of the arts (Takagi Yoshin Ryu being the main one, as it's the Mizuta-den in the Bujinkan, and the Ishitani-den in the Genbukan... although both are known there, one is the "official" line)... and this is well and truly before we get to differences in the interpretation of kata, kamae, waza, and more... so a Genbukan practitioner and a Bujinkan practitioner can be in disagreement, but both be "right" according to the teachings of each organisation. Makes it a bit difficult for those caught in the middle, of course... but if you remember that what anyone says is right in their organisation only... then you should be okay.

I guess you can say that yes, I do think highly of Tanemura & of Hatsumi, because if it weren't for them passing on the art from Takamatsu, we would never have known about it, or be able to do what we love doing. I'm beyond passionate about it & passionate about the Japanese culture. I'm not so sure if the Japanese love us Westerners? I've heard that they frown upon us, but you know what, that doesn't matter. What matters is what I feel. What they've created is what makes me happy in life, so I don't really care. I don't see them as Gods or anything like that, I just respect them. I respect anyone who has put in the effort to be high up or just very knowledgeable. I was raised to be respectful of people like that, I come from a very stern upbringing.

Tha Japanese are interesting... there is a sense of superiority, certainly... but masked by a public politeness that, unless you're quite in tune with the culture, you'd probably mistake for them liking you... tatemae and honne are important concepts to be familiar with... that said, martial art teachers (particularly classical art teachers... and I do not really count any of the Takamatsuden teachers in that, for the record) are more and more excited by Westerners coming along... there are still pockets of resistance and racism, but it's much better than it used to be.

Thanks again. *

My pleasure.

I've taken the next question and a few of the answers out separately, as I felt it deserved to be looked at away from the other topics...

I've HEARD that if you do a lot of martial arts at once, it can sometimes get confusing, as you're using a different approach every time. Is that true? Or is it subjective?

Yes, it can be quite confusing, on a few levels... for one thing, a martial art should be a cohesive, synthesised approach to addressing combative questions within it's context... as a result, it's meant to be unified in it's approach to things like tactical weaponry, power sources, range(s), context, and so on... to bring in something else that contradicts that is rather difficult.

To put it this way... say you're training in an art that relies on staying out at a range and kicking, using a power source of pivoting on the support leg to whip the hips around, using the full extension of the leg (say, TKD)... and you then start training in system that teaches you to move in, and employ kicks sparingly, with a power source of driving the hips forwards, and kicking low with minimal extension... you've now trained two opposing and contradictory methods for applying kicks. Now, the "common sense" thing to say here is "well, I'll just use the most appropriate at the time... if they're out, I'll use the TKD approach... if they're closer, I'll use the close quarters one"... except it doesn't work that way.

It's not a matter of using the range you're in... both arts teach you to move to the distance that they work best from... their tactical range... and you can't move forwards and back at the same time... you can't use a full extension whipping kick by moving in past their hands... and you can't drive your hips forwards with a low kick while whipping your hips around for a high, long-extension kick. You have to do one or the other. So which one do you do? Well, that decision is often made on an unconscious level... basically, your unconscious (trained) response will be to select the option that your unconscious believes is the most powerful of the two... which might be the right one, and might not... and might or might not be based in reality. You see, if you spend years watching bad Kung Fu films where everyone seems to do these big kicks, you may have taught your unconscious that that is the most powerful method... even if you haven't developed much skill in that area, compared with the other or not.

At best, you have two options that will never be utilised, so half of your training is wasted... at worst, you have two options that contradict each other, so you have simply taught yourself the entire time that neither of them are powerful, as the other method contradicts them, and you end up with nothing in your toolbox that you can rely on, as your unconscious mind believes neither are good enough to actually work.

Now, that's one case... where the two arts are relatively similar. Let's look at another scenario... where there is little cross-over, and the application of each are clearly separated. Let's look at a close-quarters grappling system and a mid-range striking one... such as Judo or BJJ and Boxing. The rise of MMA would seem to indicate that this is a good approach... after all, many MMA gyms teach this quite successfully, and MMA competitors don't seem to have the issues described above... so why does that seem to work?

Well, a lot of it is that these aren't approached as actual martial arts... they're approached as skill sets... and, as such, are adapted with the individual to limit, or even eliminate problems such as contradictory power sources. This leads to alterations such as the MMA practitioner taking a slightly deeper (wider) stance when boxing than a boxer normally would, being a bit slower, but more geared up to launch grappling attacks as well as defend against them (which a boxer doesn't need to worry about). The skills are also drilled together... boxing into a takedown, into a submission sequence, or kicking into a takedown defence, and moving into boxing, so on and so forth. As a result, these skill sets are combined to create a new training methodology, rather than being distinct martial arts themselves. You will also note that this is most successful in sporting systems.

After I have killed someone by my punch, on

- Monday, I will stand on his dead body and post "White crane flap wings" to prove I'm a Taiji guy.
- Tuesday, I will stand on his dead body and post "Pi Chuan" to prove I'm a XingYi guy.
- Wednesday, I will walk around his dead body as "Circle walking" to prove I'm a Bagua guy.
- Thursday, I will stand on his dead body and post "Jab on golden rooster stance" to prove I'm a long fist guy.
- Friday, I will stand on his dead body and post "YJKYM" to prove I'm a WC guy.
- Saturday, I will stand on his dead body and post "Left and right double Yin Yang" to prove I'm a preying mantis guy.
- Sunday, I will lift that dead body over my head as "Firemen's carry" to prove I'm a Chinese wrestler.

My simple punch is just a simple punch. Which MA style should deserve that credit depend on the day of the week.

John, all this does is confirm to me that you have little more than a superficial grasp of what makes something a martial art, and what the differences are. You train skill sets, not martial arts. And none of that is anything to do with training in different systems... it's superficial misunderstanding, and at the same level of a video game grasp of "systems" (with a single distinct "move" used to define them). And seriously, the bizarre fantasy you have about the amount of damage your punch can do, often talking about them "killing" people, is worrying and rather sick. Just so you know how you're coming across.

Yeah look i really hate that approach that you can only do one martial art. I do three or four within my school.

I'd be willing to bet you don't... you do three or four skill sets drawn from particular systems, but not actual systems in the main. At most, you may do BJJ as a separate system, but the rest is more likely skill sets.

I just dont understand how people can learn 8 different lanuages, 5 different dance disciplines. Shoot different guns. Go to athletics and compete in different jumps or different running styles. paint a picture in different styles.

I know you don't... we've tried to cover this with you before... the issue with the language one (which is the closest) is that you end up trying to speak French with the grammatical structure of Japanese, and a German accent. By the same token, dancers do often have issues with disparate forms of dance... they tend to specialise in one or two, and are competent in another, but the fact that they are a tango dancer first and foremost shows when they go to do some hip-hop dancing, and vice versa. Different guns don't shoot all that different to each other, and is again just an adapted skill set, and in running, again, typically athletes specialise... the marathon runner doesn't do 100 meter sprints...

In other words, while you don't understand it, there are some major pitfalls, and each of your examples are susceptible to them... although, given the nature of martial arts, it's a bit different (closest to the language one, but without the time to think things and try to remember the right word in this particular dialect).

Everything else you can get your brain around different nuances of the same concept exept martial arts.

It's not your mind that has to get around it, though... that's the issue.

I refuse to believe it is any more complicated or the people doing martial arts are any less capable.

Which is you missing that it's the fact that it's martial arts that are the difference...

Dear Tarry it really is not difficult to do many different arts as each art has its own methods of doing things, You may see in other art similar things. I enjoy doing different arts.

Hi Encho,

This is quite an unusual thing to hear from a Koryu practitioner... it's often us who are the most vocal against training in more than one thing at a time... as Koryu training is about shaping the practitioner in all ways to the thinking and mindset of the ryu in question, and having a number of contradictory mindsets is not good for the ryu or practitioner in question... I'm not saying it's impossible (I train in a few myself), but it's typically frowned upon until the student at least has quite a few good years under their belt. Do you mind if I ask what ryu-ha you study, and who with? I wanted to ask in the Aikijutsu thread, but that's becoming quite a train wreck... ha!

On the topic, from a Koryu perspective, the following I feel is quite a good representation of the issues and pitfalls from Ellis Amdur, a senior practitioner of two classical systems: Studying More than One Koryu – 古現武道

 

[Encho]

Hi Chris,
I have not met any other Koryu guys who practice only one art or have not practiced a previous koryu art.
I completely agree that different Koryu have different mindsets, I may say that in the same art different teachers have different mindsets.
I can send you PM about my teachers

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Chris,
I have not met any other Koryu guys who practice only one art or have not practiced a previous koryu art.
I completely agree that different Koryu have different mindsets, I may say that in the same art different teachers have different mindsets.
I can send you PM about my teachers

Practicing a previous art and practicing simultaneously are two different things, of course... that said, provided it's approached correctly (with each ryu being kept separate and distinct), it's certainly possible... but not easy. Most who train more than one aren't really doing the best for each... often there's a dominant system... it works best when different disciplines (one sword, one jujutsu etc), and/or when the arts are separated by a few years in terms of when study is commenced.

And please feel free to send through the PM... always happy to see more Koryu members on board!

 

[Encho]

Hi Chris
I would say that I personally see myself as a Daito ryu guy, it was my first exposure.

 

[Chris Parker]

Cool. Daito Ryu is a very interesting art... sadly I'm doing too much already, ha! But there are a few training groups around here... and I do enjoy seeing the embu...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

John, all this does is confirm to me that you have little more than a superficial grasp of what makes something a martial art,

You have not changed. All your posts are personal attacks.

Please stay on the topic and leave "me" and "you" out of the discussion.

 

[Tarrycat]

No problem.



Thanks. When it comes to "internally chang(ing) energy", I didn't read that in your answer at all... I was simply attempting to clarify that your description of a tactical application of elemental concepts was not the same as Tarrycat appears to be describing... so all good there!

One thing I didn't mention is that, despite the common English translations, the same "elements" in the Godai and Gogyo aren't necessarily the same.... most notably Earth. In the Godai, "earth" is chi (地), with the intent being more in line with the ground, or the surface of the Earth (as distinct from the Heavens), whereas the Gogyo uses the term Do (土), which has more of a meaning of "the soil/dirt", instead of simply the ground (as a surface). Take that for what it's worth....



Yeah, I figured that was likely the case... just remember, this is a text-based format... and tonality and body language can be easily missed and misunderstood... often posts aren't as harsh as they first appear...



Cool.



Hmm... this is not so much the case. You are either a part of the Bujinkan, or you're not. You're either a part of Toshindo, or you're not. And you can't be both.

And when it comes to your school, the Facebook page is full of mentions of Toshindo South Africa, the introductory video (dated August 12th this year) starts with the words "Toshindo South Africa Presents...", mentions Toshindo South Africa at the end, and gives a website address of www.toshindosa.co.za... the school address I found is www.ninkaibujutsu.co.za, which mentions your teacher being awarded a Shodan in "ninjutsu" (no organisation) from a Emanuel Maisel in 1989... which itself raises a few questions, as the only mention I can find outside of this is a mention of him beginning with Roy Ron Shihan of the Genbukan in 1991, and leaving in 1995... followed by a Nidan in Toshindo in 2010 from Stephen Hayes and (your teacher's personal teacher in the US) Brett "Dotoshi" (a Toshindo "warrior name" given to yudansha, for some reason...) Varnum, who attained a Godan in the Bujinkan in 2003 (before the split between Hayes and the Bujinkan), and later a 7th Dan in Toshindo in 2011... making him a Toshindo practitioner and teacher.

In other words, pretty much everything points to your dojo being part of the Toshindo (Stephen Hayes') organisation... as that is where the bulk of your teachers authority comes from (Shodan is not a teaching grade in the Bujinkan or Genbukan, so that conveys no authority there). There is also the distinct possibility, knowing some of South Africa's "ninjutsu" community that Emanuel Maisel, when awarding the Shodan in "ninjutsu" was teaching one of the more fraudulent "Koga-ryu" groups that seem to pop up there semi-regularly, hence no organisation being mentioned... and no mention of Maisel's prior training to the Genbukan, which he began training in after awarding your teacher a Shodan.

None of this is to disparage your teacher, although I will also say, and this is kinda a side note, that there are some rather unusual, or questionable things I find on your website... mostly in terminology and use of Japanese. Your schools name, for instance, is a bit unusual... but before I say anything about it, can you give me a translation/meaning for Ninkai Bujutsu (忍海武術), and tell me what the kanji on the other side of the badge is meant to say (忍法貫)? If you can't, that's okay... honestly, I don't expect you to be able to... but I'd be interested in your teachers answers if he is happy to answer.



Yeah, I didn't suggest disregarding anyone or what they say... simply to be aware that different organisations and teachers have different perspectives on these arts... for example the Santo Tonko no Kata from Togakure Ryu has been taught as a Menkyo level of Gyokko Ryu in the Genbukan, but not anywhere else... Manaka of the Jinenkan teaches that the Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu and Jutaijutsu are two syllabus' of the same school, but others teach that they are two separate lineages (which is a view I subscribe to, by the way)... there are different contents to some of the arts (Takagi Yoshin Ryu being the main one, as it's the Mizuta-den in the Bujinkan, and the Ishitani-den in the Genbukan... although both are known there, one is the "official" line)... and this is well and truly before we get to differences in the interpretation of kata, kamae, waza, and more... so a Genbukan practitioner and a Bujinkan practitioner can be in disagreement, but both be "right" according to the teachings of each organisation. Makes it a bit difficult for those caught in the middle, of course... but if you remember that what anyone says is right in their organisation only... then you should be okay.



Tha Japanese are interesting... there is a sense of superiority, certainly... but masked by a public politeness that, unless you're quite in tune with the culture, you'd probably mistake for them liking you... tatemae and honne are important concepts to be familiar with... that said, martial art teachers (particularly classical art teachers... and I do not really count any of the Takamatsuden teachers in that, for the record) are more and more excited by Westerners coming along... there are still pockets of resistance and racism, but it's much better than it used to be.



My pleasure.

I've taken the next question and a few of the answers out separately, as I felt it deserved to be looked at away from the other topics...



Yes, it can be quite confusing, on a few levels... for one thing, a martial art should be a cohesive, synthesised approach to addressing combative questions within it's context... as a result, it's meant to be unified in it's approach to things like tactical weaponry, power sources, range(s), context, and so on... to bring in something else that contradicts that is rather difficult.

To put it this way... say you're training in an art that relies on staying out at a range and kicking, using a power source of pivoting on the support leg to whip the hips around, using the full extension of the leg (say, TKD)... and you then start training in system that teaches you to move in, and employ kicks sparingly, with a power source of driving the hips forwards, and kicking low with minimal extension... you've now trained two opposing and contradictory methods for applying kicks. Now, the "common sense" thing to say here is "well, I'll just use the most appropriate at the time... if they're out, I'll use the TKD approach... if they're closer, I'll use the close quarters one"... except it doesn't work that way.

It's not a matter of using the range you're in... both arts teach you to move to the distance that they work best from... their tactical range... and you can't move forwards and back at the same time... you can't use a full extension whipping kick by moving in past their hands... and you can't drive your hips forwards with a low kick while whipping your hips around for a high, long-extension kick. You have to do one or the other. So which one do you do? Well, that decision is often made on an unconscious level... basically, your unconscious (trained) response will be to select the option that your unconscious believes is the most powerful of the two... which might be the right one, and might not... and might or might not be based in reality. You see, if you spend years watching bad Kung Fu films where everyone seems to do these big kicks, you may have taught your unconscious that that is the most powerful method... even if you haven't developed much skill in that area, compared with the other or not.

At best, you have two options that will never be utilised, so half of your training is wasted... at worst, you have two options that contradict each other, so you have simply taught yourself the entire time that neither of them are powerful, as the other method contradicts them, and you end up with nothing in your toolbox that you can rely on, as your unconscious mind believes neither are good enough to actually work.

Now, that's one case... where the two arts are relatively similar. Let's look at another scenario... where there is little cross-over, and the application of each are clearly separated. Let's look at a close-quarters grappling system and a mid-range striking one... such as Judo or BJJ and Boxing. The rise of MMA would seem to indicate that this is a good approach... after all, many MMA gyms teach this quite successfully, and MMA competitors don't seem to have the issues described above... so why does that seem to work?

Well, a lot of it is that these aren't approached as actual martial arts... they're approached as skill sets... and, as such, are adapted with the individual to limit, or even eliminate problems such as contradictory power sources. This leads to alterations such as the MMA practitioner taking a slightly deeper (wider) stance when boxing than a boxer normally would, being a bit slower, but more geared up to launch grappling attacks as well as defend against them (which a boxer doesn't need to worry about). The skills are also drilled together... boxing into a takedown, into a submission sequence, or kicking into a takedown defence, and moving into boxing, so on and so forth. As a result, these skill sets are combined to create a new training methodology, rather than being distinct martial arts themselves. You will also note that this is most successful in sporting systems.



John, all this does is confirm to me that you have little more than a superficial grasp of what makes something a martial art, and what the differences are. You train skill sets, not martial arts. And none of that is anything to do with training in different systems... it's superficial misunderstanding, and at the same level of a video game grasp of "systems" (with a single distinct "move" used to define them). And seriously, the bizarre fantasy you have about the amount of damage your punch can do, often talking about them "killing" people, is worrying and rather sick. Just so you know how you're coming across.



I'd be willing to bet you don't... you do three or four skill sets drawn from particular systems, but not actual systems in the main. At most, you may do BJJ as a separate system, but the rest is more likely skill sets.



I know you don't... we've tried to cover this with you before... the issue with the language one (which is the closest) is that you end up trying to speak French with the grammatical structure of Japanese, and a German accent. By the same token, dancers do often have issues with disparate forms of dance... they tend to specialise in one or two, and are competent in another, but the fact that they are a tango dancer first and foremost shows when they go to do some hip-hop dancing, and vice versa. Different guns don't shoot all that different to each other, and is again just an adapted skill set, and in running, again, typically athletes specialise... the marathon runner doesn't do 100 meter sprints...

In other words, while you don't understand it, there are some major pitfalls, and each of your examples are susceptible to them... although, given the nature of martial arts, it's a bit different (closest to the language one, but without the time to think things and try to remember the right word in this particular dialect).



It's not your mind that has to get around it, though... that's the issue.



Which is you missing that it's the fact that it's martial arts that are the difference...



Hi Encho,

This is quite an unusual thing to hear from a Koryu practitioner... it's often us who are the most vocal against training in more than one thing at a time... as Koryu training is about shaping the practitioner in all ways to the thinking and mindset of the ryu in question, and having a number of contradictory mindsets is not good for the ryu or practitioner in question... I'm not saying it's impossible (I train in a few myself), but it's typically frowned upon until the student at least has quite a few good years under their belt. Do you mind if I ask what ryu-ha you study, and who with? I wanted to ask in the Aikijutsu thread, but that's becoming quite a train wreck... ha!

On the topic, from a Koryu perspective, the following I feel is quite a good representation of the issues and pitfalls from Ellis Amdur, a senior practitioner of two classical systems: Studying More than One Koryu – 古現武道

Yes, it's difficult to interpret the meaning behind people's responses on here. I think that's what got me so frustrated, but so you live & learn. At least the more experienced people on here are more understanding, so I appreciate that & I can learn from that. I am very sensitive in nature, perhaps a bit over-sensitive at times.

This makes a lot of sense to me. I cannot begin to fathom the movement of Ninjutsu, it's very, very, VERY difficult for someone who is just starting. I struggle a lot with the energy, & keeping my body small, & low. The kicks are unlike anything I've ever experienced - it's not a kick in the beginning where you can say "1,2, OKAY DONE!" - it's sooooo complicated! The weight that needs to rest on the hind leg so you are able to pick up the front leg, just all of those tiny details are a LOT to take in for me. It's not an easy art to tap into - It's going to take a while for me to get used to it. I can't imagine doing more than one art... I'll end up like a pretzel!



What I DO know is that we train according to the curriculum of the Bujinkan (the nine classic schools) - I'm not sure if To-Shin-Do follows that curriculum too? I'm not at all familiar with the different curriculums, except that of the Bujinkan.

I have seen the video, yes. It did indeed state that it was To-Shin-Do, it was taken quite a few years ago. The reason I joined, is because everyone said it's a legitimate organisation; which feels to me like it is. My teacher is extremely good at what he does & passionate about it too.

That's all information that I can provide at this moment. There are pictures of Hatsumi Sensei & Takamatsu mounted all over the walls, some personal pictures of Steven K. Hayes are also mounted on the walls. My teacher likes both the approaches of Bujinkan & Genbukan, he's quite liberal in that sense. Regardless, I will still ask him if we are To-Shin-Do, or Bujinkan. Most likely we are To-Shin-Do, given all of the references you mentioned - that's what makes the most sense to me logically.

There are Genbukan dojo's, but not close to me. I don't live in Johannesburg, I also don't plan to - Dojo Locator

There are Bujinkan dojo's in our region, but it's too far away from me. It's out on the highway, & as a woman, this country isn't safe for me to drive all that way at night. So really, the quality of life here isn't that good. It's not like overseas where everything is controlled, there is no justice here. Jaco Zwanepoel, the instructor at the Centurion branch, I have investigated, died back in 2003 during a robbery. Here you can read about it - Bujinkan Shidoshi Killed - I don't know if anyone has taken over since the incident.

The only thing that I feel I'm missing out on is my connection to all of the other Ninjutsu students out there in the world. It makes me sad, because I would have loved to be part of the Bujinkan or Genbukan, & like they do, gather from all over the world to train (Tai Kai).

Okay our logo, I will try my best to explain it to you, hopefully it makes sense.



A fellow student explained it to me like this:


The "tomoe" represents a storm, or just a very strong wind. It is a metaphor used to reflect your environment, & all of the challenges that you are faced with. To further investigate the meaning behind the "tomoe" - Tomoe - Wikipedia - it was at one stage adopted by the Samurai as their symbol.



In the middle of the storm, is you. It represents change, adaption, enlightenment, basically everything you will learn in the art to help you conquer those difficulties.



That's the best way I can describe it, perhaps there is a better description. That's also something I will enquire on in class. I will let you know about the questions I intend to ask in class.



As to what the Japanese language on the logo means, I don't know. I will find out.



Tell me Chris, how do you know you're suited for the Bujinkan, Genbukan, or Juninkan? I've heard the Genbukan uses a more aggressive approach?



I'm interested, because if I decide to immigrate, I'll know which organisation to join.



May I ask which organisation you train with & why you joined that organisation in particular? I'm curious as to what your preferences are.



I read that Steven K. Hayes is still affiliated with Bujinkan, only he doesn't teach it? Not too sure.



I'm going to follow you on this website, so whenever I have any questions, I can ask without creating any threads.

 

[drop bear]

It's not your mind that has to get around it, though... that's the issue.

Which is you missing that it's the fact that it's martial arts that are the difference...

Yeah we are all masters of a discipline so special that is cannot even be compared to every other physical, mental or artistic pursuit.

Yet we can still do this pursuit around our work and social lives.

Sorry not going to buy that one.

Oh wait I realise the comparison.

Religion.

Of course. Makes sense now.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yeah look i really hate that approach that you can only do one martial art. I do three or four within my school.

This is why you have major and minor as you did in school. For example, if the long fist is your major and WC is your minor, you will end with

- long fist with long fist flavor, and
- WC with also long fist flavor.

The reason is simple. You ether believe in

- body rotation, or no body rotation.
- stand side way with 30% weight forward and 70% weight backward, or stand in YJKYM.
- ...

You can only do one. You can't do both at the same time.

 

[drop bear]

This is why you have major and minor as you did in school. For example, if the long fist is your major and WC is your minor, you will end with

- long fist with long fist flavor, and
- WC with also long fist flavor.

The reason is simple. You ether believe in

- body rotation, or no body rotation.
- stand side way with 30% weight forward and 70% weight backward, or stand in YJKYM.
- ...

You can only do one. You can't do both at the same time.

You are not doing both at the same time. I assume they are going to be trained at different times. Not doing two classes at once.

If you aplied them they would be done at different times.

And even if you wanted to do a hybrid they would be done at different times.

So. Get this for a crazy idea, change your stance mid fight.

The mechanics of a jab is different to the mecanics of a cross. So which one do you train?

The answer is of course the scorpion punch.

 

[drop bear]

This is why you have major and minor as you did in school. For example, if the long fist is your major and WC is your minor, you will end with

- long fist with long fist flavor, and
- WC with also long fist flavor.

The reason is simple. You ether believe in

- body rotation, or no body rotation.
- stand side way with 30% weight forward and 70% weight backward, or stand in YJKYM.
- ...

You can only do one. You can't do both at the same time.

lets look at lomenchenco because he is awesome. His whole structure changes from double jab to jab cross. Feet, positioning, rotation. Everything.

His style changes when he is in close. It changes again when he is just moving around the ring not throwing punches.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

John, all this does is confirm to me that you have little more than a superficial grasp of what makes something a martial art, and what the differences are. You train skill sets, not martial arts. And none of that is anything to do with training in different systems... it's superficial misunderstanding, and at the same level of a video game grasp of "systems" (with a single distinct "move" used to define them). And seriously, the bizarre fantasy you have about the amount of damage your punch can do, often talking about them "killing" people, is worrying and rather sick. Just so you know how you're coming across.

Chris, I think you entirely missed both the tongue-in-cheek nature of the post and its actual point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You are not doing both at the same time. I assume they are going to be trained at different times. Not doing two classes at once.

If you aplied them they would be done at different times.

And even if you wanted to do a hybrid they would be done at different times.

So. Get this for a crazy idea, change your stance mid fight.

The mechanics of a jab is different to the mecanics of a cross. So which one do you train?

The answer is of course the scorpion punch.

Agreed. I don't think there's such a conflict between most arts (at least, not the ones I've seen).

I can honestly say that when I was doing FMA, there was a bit of an NGA flavor. My NGA now has some FMA flavor. It also has some Judo flavor, etc. Why? Because my movements are influenced by all of them. I'm not trying to replicate a pure art, even when I'm trying to exactly replicate a movement in a new style I'm learning. I learn the new movement, and when I get to working with it at any speed, what else I know shows up in some small way in the application. Even my teaching is "flavored" by all my other training, because I simply teach what I've found to work. In my case, NGA is simply the container of primary principles I teach within.

 

[Yamabushii]

Yes, it's difficult to interpret the meaning behind people's responses on here. I think that's what got me so frustrated, but so you live & learn. At least the more experienced people on here are more understanding, so I appreciate that & I can learn from that. I am very sensitive in nature, perhaps a bit over-sensitive at times.

This makes a lot of sense to me. I cannot begin to fathom the movement of Ninjutsu, it's very, very, VERY difficult for someone who is just starting. I struggle a lot with the energy, & keeping my body small, & low. The kicks are unlike anything I've ever experienced - it's not a kick in the beginning where you can say "1,2, OKAY DONE!" - it's sooooo complicated! The weight that needs to rest on the hind leg so you are able to pick up the front leg, just all of those tiny details are a LOT to take in for me. It's not an easy art to tap into - It's going to take a while for me to get used to it. I can't imagine doing more than one art... I'll end up like a pretzel!



What I DO know is that we train according to the curriculum of the Bujinkan (the nine classic schools) - I'm not sure if To-Shin-Do follows that curriculum too? I'm not at all familiar with the different curriculums, except that of the Bujinkan.

I have seen the video, yes. It did indeed state that it was To-Shin-Do, it was taken quite a few years ago. The reason I joined, is because everyone said it's a legitimate organisation; which feels to me like it is. My teacher is extremely good at what he does & passionate about it too.

That's all information that I can provide at this moment. There are pictures of Hatsumi Sensei & Takamatsu mounted all over the walls, some personal pictures of Steven K. Hayes are also mounted on the walls. My teacher likes both the approaches of Bujinkan & Genbukan, he's quite liberal in that sense. Regardless, I will still ask him if we are To-Shin-Do, or Bujinkan. Most likely we are To-Shin-Do, given all of the references you mentioned - that's what makes the most sense to me logically.

There are Genbukan dojo's, but not close to me. I don't live in Johannesburg, I also don't plan to - Dojo Locator

There are Bujinkan dojo's in our region, but it's too far away from me. It's out on the highway, & as a woman, this country isn't safe for me to drive all that way at night. So really, the quality of life here isn't that good. It's not like overseas where everything is controlled, there is no justice here. Jaco Zwanepoel, the instructor at the Centurion branch, I have investigated, died back in 2003 during a robbery. Here you can read about it - Bujinkan Shidoshi Killed - I don't know if anyone has taken over since the incident.

The only thing that I feel I'm missing out on is my connection to all of the other Ninjutsu students out there in the world. It makes me sad, because I would have loved to be part of the Bujinkan or Genbukan, & like they do, gather from all over the world to train (Tai Kai).

Okay our logo, I will try my best to explain it to you, hopefully it makes sense.



A fellow student explained it to me like this:


The "tomoe" represents a storm, or just a very strong wind. It is a metaphor used to reflect your environment, & all of the challenges that you are faced with. To further investigate the meaning behind the "tomoe" - Tomoe - Wikipedia - it was at one stage adopted by the Samurai as their symbol.



In the middle of the storm, is you. It represents change, adaption, enlightenment, basically everything you will learn in the art to help you conquer those difficulties.



That's the best way I can describe it, perhaps there is a better description. That's also something I will enquire on in class. I will let you know about the questions I intend to ask in class.



As to what the Japanese language on the logo means, I don't know. I will find out.



Tell me Chris, how do you know you're suited for the Bujinkan, Genbukan, or Juninkan? I've heard the Genbukan uses a more aggressive approach?



I'm interested, because if I decide to immigrate, I'll know which organisation to join.



May I ask which organisation you train with & why you joined that organisation in particular? I'm curious as to what your preferences are.



I read that Steven K. Hayes is still affiliated with Bujinkan, only he doesn't teach it? Not too sure.



I'm going to follow you on this website, so whenever I have any questions, I can ask without creating any threads.

Tarry, if you don't mind, I'm going to make a recommendation. I feel you're too young to be posting here about Ninpo. I'm not speaking about your age but your experience with the art. I'm not in the Bujinkan, but still close enough. It's great you trust and respect your sensei so much, but allow your teaching to come directly from him, not from people on the web. I made the same mistake on another forum a few years back. I thought I knew it all and tried to use whatever my teacher told me against people with far more years of experience. It just won't work. After I came to that realization, I stopped posting on martial arts forums for a few years until I learned much, much more.

You'll even be surprised at where you may agree or disagree with yourself in a couple years. There's nothing wrong with engaging in discussions but you also have to understand that a lot of people here have been through that initial honey moon period that you're in. Just focus on learning in your own school and allow your teacher to answer your questions. No need to prove yourself online - regardless of if you're right or wrong.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You'll even be surprised at where you may agree or disagree with yourself in a couple years.

Definitely this. There are conclusions and ideas I put in my notes 15 years ago that seem almost foreign to me now.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm not trying to replicate a pure art, ...

The reason that you want to cross train a different MA style is not because you want to relearn how to kick/punch all over again, but how to add some new

- strategies,
- training methods,
- ...

into your own knowledge base. You only need to develop "foundation (engine)" from your major MA systems. But you can apply "strategy" from many different minor MA systems.

 

[drop bear]

Definitely this. There are conclusions and ideas I put in my notes 15 years ago that seem almost foreign to me now.

Which is not in any way a bad thing.

 

[Tarrycat]

Tarry, if you don't mind, I'm going to make a recommendation. I feel you're too young to be posting here about Ninpo. I'm not speaking about your age but your experience with the art. I'm not in the Bujinkan, but still close enough. It's great you trust and respect your sensei so much, but allow your teaching to come directly from him, not from people on the web. I made the same mistake on another forum a few years back. I thought I knew it all and tried to use whatever my teacher told me against people with far more years of experience. It just won't work. After I came to that realization, I stopped posting on martial arts forums for a few years until I learned much, much more.

You'll even be surprised at where you may agree or disagree with yourself in a couple years. There's nothing wrong with engaging in discussions but you also have to understand that a lot of people here have been through that initial honey moon period that you're in. Just focus on learning in your own school and allow your teacher to answer your questions. No need to prove yourself online - regardless of if you're right or wrong.

I'm young in the art, yes. There is no denying that. I even spelled Jinenkan wrong ...don't know anything about it.

Can someone tell me more about it?

I 100% understand where you're coming from & thank you. I appreciate your input. x