Martial Arts Orgins, Where did they come from????

[47MartialMan]

By your answer I am guessing that you know of some targets and methods of attacking those targets that modern man does not possess. Could you elaborate - carefully avoiding modern art similarities - for me?

I am not stating that it does or does not resemble. I was posting that in ponderance. How can anything being passed from centuries be that conclusive?

Think about this. For sure, one civilization may not have had, per example, kicking, and when another came by and did this...it "wowed" them.

I mean, and don't get too carried away by this, per the series or movie Kung Fu with Carradine, Occidentals seeing such tactics whereas they had not used them, must be in awe to see another perform these.

Or a particular civilization extinguished before methods that are commonly known elsewhere, were introduced. Thus their art that they carried with them, may not resemble another art/culture.

If one is to state that anything can be a martial art because a fist is a fist, a kick is a kick, then per limbs/legs, carry these resemblences in those factors.

However, a different way to punch or kick will be different from culture to culture that span centuries.

 

[lonecoyote]

In regards to your reply to my post, well said. But, how about a rifle used to hunt game and then used to fight a revolution? A martial weapon of war. A sword one minute or a plowshare the next. A filipino machete used to cut sugar cane, mostly, is it not a martial arts weapon? Some here might disagree, there are even those on this board who practice the art of its use as a weapon. Of course a spear could not be used the same way in combat between humans as it is for hunting game, its use had to be adapted, first through trial and error and then through a system, probably consisting of just a few moves, but a system nonetheless. Fighting was taught, you can bet on it. gotta go. to be continued.

 

[47MartialMan]

In regards to your reply to my post, well said. But, how about a rifle used to hunt game and then used to fight a revolution? A martial weapon of war. A sword one minute or a plowshare the next. A filipino machete used to cut sugar cane, mostly, is it not a martial arts weapon? Some here might disagree, there are even those on this board who practice the art of its use as a weapon. Of course a spear could not be used the same way in combat between humans as it is for hunting game, its use had to be adapted, first through trial and error and then through a system, probably consisting of just a few moves, but a system nonetheless. Fighting was taught, you can bet on it. gotta go. to be continued.

Hey, you have to research the history/development of the firearm to come to that conclusion.

But fighting was taught, but did such man have the intelligence to teach it systematically?

 

[lulflo]

Now at home, a little more time...

I was just trying to preface some of the ideas that are out there. I have learned a great deal by reading the posts on this site, books, verbal stories, dreams, meditations. I have learned that people generally retain a fraction of what they read, x portion of what they see, and y portion of what they hear. So if one is presented 100% of information, it stands to reason that not only would it be impossible to pass down 100% of the knowledge, but that through the course of time, information is bound to be corrupted, forgotten, omitted, etc. So my guess is that in the beginning, there was a much larger base of knowledge and ability by superior (insert your word here, mine is beings) and they were able to teach only a fraction of their knowledge to a select few.

Those who learned this knowledge surely would have practiced it diligently, written it down and shown it to others. I could be wrong, but I haven't seen all of the information of Hwa Rang Do from JB Lee, and he is said to be the holder of the art. I am just imitating what was taught to the few people who have a fraction of his knowledge. Here we are saying that the arts are getting better and better, but it doesn't seem possible that we could possibly have as much knowledge as our predecessors. I would have to stand by my original conclusion that there is little possiblity that the information out there is being built from nothing. I think that is a great theory and can certainly understand that others would follow that because it is easier to think that way. I just have a hard time with the idea that these thoughts are original, I mean, I grew up learning that a hand is a hand because someone else pointed to it and said, call that a hand. That is pretty much the same with almost everything that is learned. It is through meditation that one can truly tap into original experience and thought. Going into the unknown and unknowable and not having words to describe what you experienced, that would be what I consider original thought.

By the way, I have seen a Kimoto dragon

Farang - Larry

 

[47MartialMan]

No the same...And what about a mirage-can you dink form it

 

[lonecoyote]

Sure, such a man had the intelligence to teach fighting other men systematically. He lived around 11,000 BCE but he was a homo sapiens, just like you and me. The same brain that programs computers nowadays resided in his head, and he used it to make ingenious tools and strategies for living in his environment. Can you make a clovis point? Could you bring down a mammoth with some buddies and a spear? My guess would be no. Doing these things required a systematized approach. Knowledge and technique had to build on knowledge and technique, same as with martial arts. He was resourceful and tough and how could you think he couldn't systematize a few moves to show his fellow members of his band how to survive when attacked by other men? From what I remember of an anthropology class, though, warfare as we think of it, even between tribes or villages was a little down the road, but I'm sure skirmishes between bands and the flat out need to just kill a man was extant during this time. I think lulflo is trying to say that skills degenerate over time, and that men of the past were therefore superior in martial knowledge, while I'm just saying that it is possible they were equal.

 

[Brother John]

I guess I would have to buy into the idea that we all came from the single cell amoebas to follow the logic of the caveman martial arts. I have done some pretty interesting reading from a guy named Zacharia Sitchin (The Twelvth Planet) and many other texts that support another answer.
Farang - Larry

Larry-
I mean you NO disrespect bro, but...
I do like to read books on metaphysics and the like, things that the gereral population would say "Huh?" toward.
:idunno:
But EVEN I have to say that Sitchin, in 'the Twelvth Planet' is so Far fetched as to be increadibly ludacris.
It doesn't 'support' anything but the importance of staying on psychotropic drugs once you begin them.

I don't see what this has to do with finding the 'origin' of the martial arts.

Your Brother
John

 

[lulflo]

Hi there.

I am just saying that I am not that smart. I can't imagine anyone being able claim that we here on earth are the only ones who had a hand in everything there is. I think that some divinity or intervention is possible. Maybe someone is smart enough to gather all the knowledge in the martial arts, but that would not be me. It's like another way to say, "let the man with no sin cast the first stone" I don't know ANYONE who is without sin, and I don't know anyone who has ALL of the knowledge of the martial arts, besides, I just think it is fascinating to read all of the information out there and argue it passionately to find more information from some good people here on MT. By the way, have you read anything about the Mer Ka Ba. Drunvalo Malchizadek has a great book called the ancient secret of the flower of life that is extremely interesting, I recommend it to anyone.

Peacefully Stay,

Larry

 

[VSanhodo]

I don't expect anything, just putting it out there. I believe that if you can imagine it, it can be. I also don't like the idea that we are the only intelligence out there. If we are, then we are in big trouble. Just another view my friend.


Farang - Larry

I have to say, I have enjoyed reading your posts. In the movie first contact there was line that I thought summed it up real well, The line said if there is no life out there then its alot of wasted space.
I truly believe the orgins of the Martial sciences is from God himself and were originally designed as the fighting sciences of the angels. Be they for the angels or for the angels to pass on to man, I dont know but either way the martial sciences are truly a gift from God.
Thanks again for everyones posts

 

[Miles]

Since I don't buy the notion that Technology Makes You God, I'd point out that our precursors in the many martial arts lived in far more-dangerous societies and often had to employ their arts in ways that may have given them an advantage or two.

Sorry if you thought I implied technology was the important point. It wasn't-progress is the point-things get better and since we are in better shape physically than our precursors, have had the benefit of studying fighting styles and physiology over time, I think martial arts skill is higher now than ever before.

I agree that society may have been more dangerous in the past (peace is another byproduct of progress), but the need to survive is a basic instinct.

Miles

 

[47MartialMan]

I have to say, I have enjoyed reading your posts. In the movie first contact there was line that I thought summed it up real well, The line said if there is no life out there then its alot of wasted space.
I truly believe the orgins of the Martial sciences is from God himself and were originally designed as the fighting sciences of the angels. Be they for the angels or for the angels to pass on to man, I dont know but either way the martial sciences are truly a gift from God.
Thanks again for everyones posts

Why would such a gift from God have man conflicting with man?

 

[VSanhodo]

Why would such a gift from God have man conflicting with man?

Hi Thanks for your post:

God has given us freedom of choice, Sadly some of us choose to be violent while others choose to be peace makers. Im not trying to turn this into a religious post. But since you asked and frankly Ive asekd the same question of myself. If figure if Lucifer and the armies of God fought in heaven, then it would seem to me we as mortal men are probably allowed to make a few mistakes as well. I also wrote that the Martial Sciences were the fighting arts of the angels either used by to given to them to be imparted to we as mortal men. Angels as seen by God and as written about in the bible are to be servants and guardian's of man. God holds us as mere mortals on a higher level than angels.
My first Instructor, Mr. Tanaka use to tell me simialar tales, Mr instructor in African arts, Ahaiti Kilindi Iyi feels the same as I and the head instructor of RYU-Te, Taika Oyata feels the same, that is the arts are a gift imparted from God himself either directly or though the instruction of angels to us mere mortal men.
Thanks so much for your post
San

 

[47MartialMan]

Hi Thanks for your post:

God has given us freedom of choice, Sadly some of us choose to be violent while others choose to be peace makers. Im not trying to turn this into a religious post. But since you asked and frankly Ive asekd the same question of myself. If figure if Lucifer and the armies of God fought in heaven, then it would seem to me we as mortal men are probably allowed to make a few mistakes as well. I also wrote that the Martial Sciences were the fighting arts of the angels either used by to given to them to be imparted to we as mortal men. Angels as seen by God and as written about in the bible are to be servants and guardian's of man. God holds us as mere mortals on a higher level than angels.
My first Instructor, Mr. Tanaka use to tell me simialar tales, Mr instructor in African arts, Ahaiti Kilindi Iyi feels the same as I and the head instructor of RYU-Te, Taika Oyata feels the same, that is the arts are a gift imparted from God himself either directly or though the instruction of angels to us mere mortal men.
Thanks so much for your post
San

Yes, I can see that some MA instructors have a spiritulity with their arts. However, in response, perhaps one may not agree or believe in God, therefore your point can be mute to an antheist.

 

[DRMiller]

That is the problem with most martial arts in America today, they are purely physical based. If a man or woman does not posess the moral character that comes from spiritual training couple with the physical in Karate then they cannot be trusted to know when or how to use it. That spiritual does not need to be of Oriental or Eastern origin, Karate can be taught from a Christian setting also as in my school.

VSanhodo, I too am a member of Taika Oyata's Ryu-Te associaition and train under Mr. Jandrakovic in Wichita, KS. My school is not associated with the association as it was started before I rejoined after 5 years absense. My shcool is a ministry of our Church and they let me use the basement for classes on Saturday's. Since I consider it a ministry I do not charge any monthly fees and try to keep all costs as low as possible so everyone who wishes can participate. I currently have about 22 regular students split between two classes.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

i think that by bringing god into the picture is like saying humans were not smart enough to come up with it. the way i see it, people have been trying to kill each other for a long time and we have been devising easier ways to enforce our will on others as the years have gone by. i dont believe in the whole angels fighting the minions of hell as the origins of martial art. a method or methods of fighting is simply not something that i believe an omnipotent being would come up with " I want you to love one another, but just in case you cant, twist his arm like this and punch him here."
not likely.
there are plenty of places on this planet earth that have no knowledge of god as some people know it, and would look at this idea as preposterous.

 

[47MartialMan]

i think that by bringing god into the picture is like saying humans were not smart enough to come up with it. the way i see it, people have been trying to kill each other for a long time and we have been devising easier ways to enforce our will on others as the years have gone by. i dont believe in the whole angels fighting the minions of hell as the origins of martial art. a method or methods of fighting is simply not something that i believe an omnipotent being would come up with " I want you to love one another, but just in case you cant, twist his arm like this and punch him here."
not likely.
there are plenty of places on this planet earth that have no knowledge of god as some people know it, and would look at this idea as preposterous.

I like this...as if no one cannot develop martial arts, morals, or spirituality, without God.....

 

[VSanhodo]

Over the years I have been fortunate enough to have traveled all over the world, met some interesting ppl and been to some pretty exotic places but everywhere that I have traveled weather the ppl use the name God or simply believe in a higher being. I woul venture to say there are not very many peoples that dont worship a higher being. I personally believe in what I call O.A or Original art, it was the first art. And yes if youve read my post you know where I personally believe the arts came from. I also believe in creation but also evolution, that is to say I believe we were created and since then we have evolved, just like the Martial sciences.
I certainly cant speak for others, but for me. I will simply say in my younger days I did some things that by most standards would be considered barbaric by most. (Good Ole Military) I have no regrets but at that time I didnt have the same value system I have now. Ive been blessed enough to have been afforded the opportunity to have been given the chance to be a student of the Martial sciences for just over 35 years now. I have to say, as Ive gotten older, perhaps a little wiser and yes certainly more spiritual. My morals, ethics and chararecter have developed more and hopefully I have become a good husband, Father and friend to those around me. My knowledge ability and what little skill I may have has become much much more refined. It seems the better I try to lead my life the easier and better martial knowldege comes to me. Yep, I see it and the martial sciences as a gift from God. If ppl dont believe its ok with me I still welcome and respect thier views, even if I believe they are wrong.

Thanks again for everyones posts.
San

 

[The Kai]

i think that by bringing god into the picture is like saying humans were not smart enough to come up with it. the way i see it, people have been trying to kill each other for a long time and we have been devising easier ways to enforce our will on others as the years have gone by. i dont believe in the whole angels fighting the minions of hell as the origins of martial art. a method or methods of fighting is simply not something that i believe an omnipotent being would come up with " I want you to love one another, but just in case you cant, twist his arm like this and punch him here."
not likely.
there are plenty of places on this planet earth that have no knowledge of god as some people know it, and would look at this idea as preposterous.

Thank you for stating the obvious, Martial arts started out slowly, simply and were added to all the time! Why, because man was fighting all the time

 

[Brother John]

I am just saying that I am not that smart.

By the way, have you read anything about the Mer Ka Ba. Drunvalo Malchizadek has a great book called the ancient secret of the flower of life that is extremely interesting, I recommend it to anyone.

Peacefully Stay,

Larry

(I like your initial confession. :asian: )
Yes Larry-
Actually I find the Kabbalah (preceded by the Merkaba mysticism) to be very very interesting.
I highly recomend: Gnosis of the Cosmic Christ, by Tau Malachi. It's interesting too.

BUT: Back to martial arts origins.
I don't think that the African martial arts left very much in the way of records or history. Too many people claim "Oral" instructions passed down, but there's so many 'broken lines' in the succession to make it an "origin" of anything being done today.

Your Brother
John

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Over the years I have been fortunate enough to have traveled all over the world, met some interesting ppl and been to some pretty exotic places but everywhere that I have traveled weather the ppl use the name God or simply believe in a higher being. I woul venture to say there are not very many peoples that dont worship a higher being.

you say in your statement that in your travels all over the world that people believe in a higher being although they may not call it god. as the son of a baptist mother (who is an elder in her church) and a catholic father, i was exposed to differing opinions on who or what god is. as far as the non catholic christian missionary point of view thing goes, most of the people i have met say something like, "well these people worship god, they just call Him something different."
this sort of opinion makes it easier for these people to accept and simultaneously push "there" version of the lord on someone. while the idea of a God that truely exists to people is all too real, here is once again an example of finding an end to justify the means. in the origins of many martial arts, the art was developed before any sort of spiritual philosophy was attached to it along with a set of morals to temper the artists actions or justify the use of said art, in order to make the artist feel better about the use of their art.
how many wars in the past 10 centuries were waged in the name of god?