Martial Arts Instructors and their fight experience

[thaiboxer]

I was thinking the other day. How many martial arts instructors out there can say they've used their knowledge in real combat? Usually not many id say. (from who i know around the traps)
I think this would adversely effect the real teaching of an art, as they wouldnt really know when to use the moves at their opportune moment, and hence wouldnt be able to teach their students how to correctly use them at the right times in a confrontation. What do you guys think about this and anything else youd like to add?

 

[GouRonin]

Dennis Conatser and I had this discussion a while back. I started that most of the stuff we learned in Kenpo for the bear hug from behind with the arms pinned I wouldn't do.

Once I was at a dance club and I was on the dance floor and this guy kept bumping into me. After a few times I gave him a shove. It wasn't hard but he went down due to lack of balance. His friend came from behind me and grabbed me in a bear hug to try and drag me away. I clasped both my hands on my chest holding his hands and held tight while I repeatedly bashed his face/nose/mouth with the back of my head. No matter how hard he tried to let go I kept bashing until we both fell and I landed on top. The head bash was a bit of a technique I learned from a Kenpo instructor taken out of the technique and used outside the system or art's prescribed use.

Dennis had the good point that Kenpo is also an ART. As an art you learn to pass the art on. So an instructor doesn't always have to be super seasoned in the street to do so. Hopefully they will take what they have learned and apply it. Conversely, a guy who can streetfight and no one can stop him won't always make a great teacher.

Note, anyone wanting to try this you will hurt the back of your head. There will be a lot of blood. Once you accept these issues, it's a great technique.

 

[arnisador]

I've had a few high-school bully type fights and one attempted mugging (three guys, one knife). It makes for good stories but doesn't have a big effect on what techniques I teach--though it has a bit of an effect on the general advice I give.

 

[Turner]

I read a letter to Black Belt magazine a year or so ago by some one stating that the Martial Arts are a fraud because most of the instructors have never been in a fight. Now, in my opinion... since I'm a Kenpo guy, I'll use an analogy... Let's say you want to take a driver safety course (I think Tony Bauer said this)... would you go in and be impressed with how many car crashes the instructor has been in? Of course not... you would want to see his clean driving record as proof that he is qualified to teach you how to stay safe. That is what the Martial Arts are about; teaching you how to stay safe and avoid trouble. So if I find out that my instructor has never been in a fight, I would assume that he is a pretty darn successful martial artist.

It is an unfortunate fact that I've been in fights, most of them are due to the topic of the thread "Martial Arts and the Male ego on the outside" Ignorant people learn that I am a martial artist and decide that they want to test me and so they throw a sloppy punch that doesn't come near to hitting me and laugh and say that I would have gotten clobbered and so I tell them that I didn't defend myself because I believe in the economy of motion and won't waste energy on something that I know isn't going to touch me... so they haul back and hit me and I take the punch and when they ask why I didn't block I tell them that half of the martial arts is learning how to take a punch... which I know is no part at all of some martial art schools, which is very sad... that mostly stops them, but if they up the level I'm going to open up on them. I've fought the school-yard bullies.. some times more than one and as an adult (18, I'm only 23 now) I've been jumped by three armed teen age punks who seemed to be gangbanger wannabes and I don't have any tolerance for that kind of attitude and didn't feel threatened so I showed them the error of their ways. I've had people that I know get drunk and get offended for some weird reason because I don't drink and they want to push and push to try to get me to "break" and it goes too far. I've been stabbed because of my race... Mostly ego stuff, y'know.. someone seeing me, a quiet guy that is kinda (ok..really super) geeky and they see someone that they think they can dominate and boost their ego so they start it up.

To say that because I've been in some fights I am better able to teach is pretty much just bull. I didn't think about strategy and tactics, I just thought about pressing the attack until the person was retreating so that I could cut and run. Throw a kick and show them that I will kick so that they move back and generally take a fake karate stance and give a little distance and I just use that distance as a headstart to run

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Turner

I read a letter to Black Belt magazine a year or so ago by some one stating that the Martial Arts are a fraud because most of the instructors have never been in a fight.

You've brought up a number of interesting points but I want to just comment on this one: These are the martial arts we're talking about. It's not always about self-defense--e.g., iaido or kendo, but furthermore many people practice Tai Chi only for the health benefits. More generally some people are interested in karate because they just plain like it; they enjoy the art and practice it for personal improvement. It's not just about fighting!

For a self-defense oriented art or teacher, yes, the feedback provided by real fights could help--that's clear. Of course, this raises many ethical issues.

 

[Turner]

I totally agree with you. Even though I teach a self defense oriented art, all - repeat ALL - of my current students are interested in learning from my for the health benifits. I've run into only a handful of people that were primarily interested in learning the martial arts for the martial aspect. Health and Character development have been the primary motivations for most of the people I have known and they turned to the martial arts instead of aerobics because of the secondary goal, which is self defense. So it is doubly wrong for someone to assume that martial artists are frauds because they have never been in a conflict. Yes, being in conflict does provide some insights that you might not find any where else. It taught me the extreme need to have contact in classes because I've seen too often someone get knocked silly with an untrained fighters first shot because they had never experienced a solid blow in class. It also made me aware of the need for a certain level of intensity because most fights are so intense that even the fighter in the best physical shape will be drained in less than a minute... so I push my students extremely hard... and that is why I get mostly people looking for health benifits because they are assured they are going to be drenched in sweat.

 

[Zoran]

Originally posted by arnisador

For a self-defense oriented art or teacher, yes, the feedback provided by real fights could help--that's clear. Of course, this raises many ethical issues.

It would depend on how they aquired that experience. If they were a Police Officer, MP, Bouncer or other such profession, they may have gained experience due to their job. I've had about 10 years of bouncing experience. Because of this, I've been in a number of physical altercations. Besides gaining practical self-defense experience, I've also learned how to avoid confrontations. I think the last can be the hardest to learn.

 

[arnisador]

I must agree with Turner--nowadays most people seem to take the martial arts for health reasons (adults at least).

Bouncing does seem like a good way to get fighting experience. I wish I had done it!

 

[Ty K. Doe]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that the martial arts was about staying out of fights. But it gave you a way to protect yourself if you had to. I never thought it was a means to be able to win every fight but a means to protect yourself enough so you don't get killed. If you happen to be good enough to win every altercation that's an added bonus.

I guess what I'm saying is that the martial arts should be for protecting yourself not for people who want to fight all the time. If there are students wanting to take martial arts to learn how to beat somebody up, shouldn't it be the instructors job to tell them that's not what we do here. You wouldn't want to change the art just because more people want to learn to beat people up. Perhaps I've misinterpreted some comments on this thread, but I believe that if I had an instructor that was getting into fights all the time I would try to find a different instructor. The general public should be given more credit. I think they understand what martial arts should be about.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Ty K. Doe

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that the martial arts was about staying out of fights.

You're wrong. Most Japanese arts developed before the 20th century--judo excepted--were for killing people. Virtually noone studied kenjutsu for self-defense--it was so the samurai could kill his enemy on the battlefield. You might be surprised by how many arts have or had offensive moves in them. (I remember seeing one from monkey kung fu on a web page recently, for example.) The pacifistic use/study of the martial arts is a relatively recent phenomenon. It's part of the change from jutsu arts to do arts that emphasize self-defense and character development.

 

[disciple]

Originally posted by arnisador

You're wrong.

Not necessarily. Maybe it is for Japanese arts...I don't know. But for Chinese arts, there are styles which are designed mostly for offensive attacks, but others are emphasizing in defending ourself. The priciple is like a willow tree, if you keep pushing, you will get knocked down.

salute

:asian:

 

[Zoran]

Nobody is wrong on what MA is for. MA is what you decide to make of it. For some it's spiritual, a sport, a fitness thing, self-defense, or what ever else it may be to the individual.

As I said, being in a profession, like bouncing and others, may give you practical experience for your MA. Bouncing is about 80% boredom, 10% Diplomat, 5% avoidance of confrontations (usually includes taking a lot of verbal abuse), 4% intimidation, and about 1% of actual fighting. I loved the movie "The Road House", it's nothing like that!

I think of jobs like PD, MP, and bouncing as self-defense on a wider scale.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Zoran

Nobody is wrong on what MA is for. MA is what you decide to make of it. For some it's spiritual, a sport, a fitness thing, self-defense, or what ever else it may be to the individual.

Today, I agree--very strongly, in fact. But for 100+ years ago, I don't. My point is in fact that most of these arts were developed for purely combative purposes, excepting perhaps some early Chinese arts, but nopw they're used mostly for health, character development, self-defense. They weren't always for these things, however, and many would still disagree that they'e about anything other than fighting (e.g. kenpoists and muay thai practitioners?).

 

[Zoran]

Originally posted by arnisador



Today, I agree--very strongly, in fact. But for 100+ years ago, I don't. My point is in fact that most of these arts were developed for purely combative purposes, excepting perhaps some early Chinese arts, but nopw they're used mostly for health, character development, self-defense. They weren't always for these things, however, and many would still disagree that they'e about anything other than fighting (e.g. kenpoists and muay thai practitioners?).

Agreed.

 

[tonbo]

My instructor's father, a 7th degree, has reportedly tested his material in the past in more than a couple of bar fights. From the stories, he was not convinced that some of the principles he learned would work, and so he went and tried them out.

My instructor has also reportedly been in a situation or two, but my money is against it. He is a quiet and humble man who can hit like a train and move like a blur.....but when he talks about what the techniques can *do*, I think it is, at least mostly, from what he has done in the studio and his own training, not personal combat.

Yes, the martial arts were originally that: MARTIAL. Nowadays, more people take them for health or competition reasons, rather than for life-preserving skills. Yes, most like the self-defense aspect, but I don't think that is foremost in *most* people's minds.

Personally, I don't *want* an instructor that is a brawler and calling out people to test his stuff. I want to learn ways to *avoid* fights, not how to decimate someone. Those who have gone before me (my instructor's father, Ed Parker, etc.) have tested the material and proven it. I don't need to test it myself, I just need to have it handy.

Peace--

 

[Battousai]

For me I've never been in a fight since the time I started taking martial arts, some 9 years ago.
In one sense this is really disappointing to me, but in another its great.
I was in a situation once, after some years of training. By this time I was an instructor for my school. I was trying to start up my own school in a different part of town and had advertized about a free class. About 8 guys came to my class and challenged me, said that their yellow belt student could trash me and such, etc, etc. I refused to fight, even when they offered to have everyone else leave the room so it would be "fair". I was angered and afraid at the same time, regardless of what they said I wouldn't fight. Fighting there, in the middle of the college campus, would have meant expulsion from school, regardless they offered to meet me somewere and fight there.
No matter what I'm determined not to fight unless there is a real physical threat. There wasn't, they didn't approach close enough to be a threat.
My instructor is pro-taking people down, any such challenge he would take up without thought. When I told him about what happened he was disappointed with me, he told me that I shouldn't of been afraid of them, that I could of taken them all out. He believes in my abilities even when I myself don't.
Even though I would love a legitimate chance to experience the martial arts within real life conflict, I believe totally that seeking out that conflict is morally wrong. And stepping into a fight that could of been avoided is equally wrong.

I understand the point of this thread. I would like to learn from a battle hardened individual myself (If I wasn't already).
The real issue is weather a person with no real life experience can be as good of a teacher as someone who has lots of experience. I think not. But the differences seem to be very minor. At least my instructor, in my case, tells me so.

 

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Battousai

About 8 guys came to my class and challenged me, said that their yellow belt student could trash me and such, etc, etc.

What system were these boneheads from?

 

[Cthulhu]

It also depends on environment and social conditions. Yip Man always told his students to not take his word for it...go out and test the system out. Many did just that, challenging other styles in challenge matches or using their skills on the streets. Supposedly, 50's and 60's Hong Kong was a perfect place for this type of activity.

Cthulhu

 

[Kirk]

I would love to test out what I've been taught. But I have a
family, and for the most part, the soul source of income. I'm
not going to risk any of that, just to settle my morbid curiosity.
I've met quite a few m.a.ists that all say they've only had to
use what they've been taught ONCE. And today, a friend of
mine that studies both Iaido(sp?) and Kendo said, in reference
to SCA guys that beat on each other with sticks and no training,
"to someone who studies, those guys move super slow".

Most guys that spar, defensive or otherwise ... can see a
standard non ma-ist punch coming a mile away. I don't doubt
that to a skilled ma-ist (not including myself in this bunch) what
they've been training for will work when need be. How many
people get the chance to punch and be punched outside of a
dojo or boxing ring, on a regular basis? No one I know of.

The style I train in, kenpo, teaches defense against m.a. style
attacks ... there's one where I'm curious. Where I live, there's
a LOT of thug boxers, that have been training a long time. If
ever I were to get into a fight with a trained fighter, I'd bet money
it'd be with one of these guys .. they go LOOKING for a fight.
But they also assume they're the only ones out there with any
skill. That being one advantage, I'm curious as to how my
training would match up (those dudes a FAST), once I've had
an equal amount of training. Again .. not curious enough to
unnecessarily take a stand. But curious nonetheless.

 

[Battousai]

Originally posted by Zoran



What system were these boneheads from?

Heh the local ninjutsu clan, they train in this one guys house and run around wooded areas.