Hi, I'm looking to join a Japanese martial arts school in my area but need advice first

[Silverblade8]

I love Japanese fighting arts like aikido, judo, jiu-jitsu and karate but I want to learn from someone that teaches the real deal and not just looking to make quick cash. I looked up this place near my area and says they teach self defense, combine all the different Japanese arts, have taught their moves to police veterans and so forth. And the Shihan master says he's been teaching for over 30 years and has many different instructors at his school. Does anyone know anything about this place? The Shihan seems like he has many levels of training.

Anyone know anything about this style on the site because I'm thinking of joining but I just want to make sure I get some feedback from other martial artist who know how to tell if the credits are good or not. I hope it's ok I'm asking this on here, sorry I'm new.

Goshinkan Jujitsu Dojo Family Self Defense Center

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I knew that name looked familiar! Took me a bit to realize it's close by me. Sadly I don't know anyone who trains there. I know a few that train (or used to train, it's been a couple years since I spoke to them) at a place called nokado self defense, and one of them I trained with for a bit and he was much better at grappling then me. There were a few locations (commack and kings park are what I know) but they seem to be closed down now-not sure if that's a COVID thing, or a business thing. If you live close to there I'd give them a call to double check (here's the website Traditional Jiu Jitsu Martial Arts | Kings Park | Northport | Nokado).

If you're interested more in a fighting art that teaches the real deal, and don't care as much about the japanese specific arts aspect, I can help you out. If you're interested in a traditional place that teaches the real deal, and are willing to travel a bit away from merrick, I can probably help you with that too. But with all 3 (location, effective and japanese) I don't have any personal recommendations.

 

[drop bear]

By the way always Facebook stalk them as well. You get bit more of an insight in to their day to day rather than their promotional stuff.

And then do kudo.

 

[Silverblade8]

I knew that name looked familiar! Took me a bit to realize it's close by me. Sadly I don't know anyone who trains there. I know a few that train (or used to train, it's been a couple years since I spoke to them) at a place called nokado self defense, and one of them I trained with for a bit and he was much better at grappling then me. There were a few locations (commack and kings park are what I know) but they seem to be closed down now-not sure if that's a COVID thing, or a business thing. If you live close to there I'd give them a call to double check (here's the website Traditional Jiu Jitsu Martial Arts | Kings Park | Northport | Nokado).

If you're interested more in a fighting art that teaches the real deal, and don't care as much about the japanese specific arts aspect, I can help you out. If you're interested in a traditional place that teaches the real deal, and are willing to travel a bit away from merrick, I can probably help you with that too. But with all 3 (location, effective and japanese) I don't have any personal recommendations.

Oh that place is far. I'm not close to Kings Park. I'm in Wantagh. Do you know anyone who knows about the place in Merrick? And I'd love to know more about the traditional place that teaches the real deal that you know of.

And sure why not, let me know about the fighting art with the real deal that you know about too

Thanks

 

[Silverblade8]

By the way always Facebook stalk them as well. You get bit more of an insight in to their day to day rather than their promotional stuff.

And then do kudo.

I forgot about that. I just wanted to ask others who are familiar about it and know what it was like to train there or what their experience was like.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Oh that place is far. I'm not close to Kings Park. I'm in Wantagh. Do you know anyone who knows about the place in Merrick? And I'd love to know more about the traditional place that teaches the real deal that you know of.

And sure why not, let me know about the fighting art with the real deal that you know about too

Thanks

So first: Sadly I don't know any traditional japanese dojos that are good in your area. I do know some but they'd be over a 40 minute drive from wantagh.

Second: I also don't know anyone who's trained there, so I wouldn't be able to help you. I've heard of it, but its name is literally all I've heard.

Now on to the (hopefully) useful stuff.

Close by you in farmingdale, they've got an MMA place that's supposed to be top notch. Long Island MMA and Fitness Center

There's also a place that has a traditional teacher (he teaches silat so a bit of a different take on traditional, along with JKD). Used to have a place in New Hyde Park, but that place closed down (as many do) and he's now listed as a silat instructor in Tactics. They seem to separate a couple different arts by style, all of which are traditional, but none are japanese. The only instructor I know there is Greg, can't vouch for the others. The Tactics Martial Arts Instructors

Depending on if you'd consider BJJ a japanese art, you've also got Emerson Souza's place. He's a great instructor (is actually my instructor's instructor) and AFAIK the only 5th degree BJJ Black Belt on long island. Emerson Souza Brazilian Jiu Jitsu | Baldwin, NY

Someone I used to train with (and competes at least in BJJ, I think MMA but not 100% sure) now goes to bellmore kickboxing mma specifically for striking, and last we spoke he only had good things to say. Been a couple years though so that could easily change. https://www.bellmorekickboxingmma.com

I'd offer my own place as well, which I guess is technically a traditional dojo but it doesn't have the 'traditional' feel if that's what you're looking for, but it's half an hour away in no traffic, which I'm guessing is too far.

 

[JR 137]

By the way always Facebook stalk them as well. You get bit more of an insight in to their day to day rather than their promotional stuff.

And then do kudo.

Highly doubtful Kudo is around him. Not very big in the States for some reason unbeknownst to me, and a shame. There was talk of starting Kudo in NYC and I think there was a visit and push by Azuma himself, but I don’t think much came of it.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Looked at the site and did a little digging around YouTube and Facebook. A few thoughts...

If it matters to you, this is not a traditional Japanese system. It's a modern American system created, as far as I can tell, by the head instructor. It's not clear who his instructors were, but based on the info he gives in his bio I'm guessing the arts he originally trained in* were also mostly modern American systems. If you go back a few generations, I'm sure it mostly derives from some combination of karate, judo, and aikido.

(None of the above necessarily indicates anything good or bad about the quality of the instruction or the art.)

I found a few clips of demos and belt tests for the school. My personal reaction is … meh. I've seen much worse and I've seen much better. Not a place I'd personally go for at this point in my development, but then again I could say that about most schools. Once they're open again check them out for yourself and see if you like the atmosphere.

*He lists dan ranks in the following:
Goshin-Budo Ju-Jitsu. This is a name currently used by Shoto Tanemura for one of the arts he created, but the date is a number of years before Tanemura did so. I expect it was someone else using the same, fairly generic, terminology.
Hara-Ha Buke Budo Kyokai. Never heard of it and can't find any info on it.
Rensei-Do. Never heard of it and can't find any info on it.

 

[Silverblade8]

So first: Sadly I don't know any traditional japanese dojos that are good in your area. I do know some but they'd be over a 40 minute drive from wantagh.

I understand. Actually now that I think about it, maybe the distance won't be so bad. You can tell me the places and I'll see what I can do!

Second: I also don't know anyone who's trained there, so I wouldn't be able to help you. I've heard of it, but its name is literally all I've heard.

It's np. I actually checked the site more and looked on FB and I'm feeling a bit skeptical about it now and not sure why? It doesn't look bad and it is very close to me, just not sure if they offer what I'm looking for.

Now on to the (hopefully) useful stuff.

Close by you in farmingdale, they've got an MMA place that's supposed to be top notch. Long Island MMA and Fitness Center

I actually heard from someone that this is a very good and reputable place. I'll definitely look more into it. If you're not skilled at fighting, will they help you out?

There's also a place that has a traditional teacher (he teaches silat so a bit of a different take on traditional, along with JKD). Used to have a place in New Hyde Park, but that place closed down (as many do) and he's now listed as a silat instructor in Tactics. They seem to separate a couple different arts by style, all of which are traditional, but none are japanese. The only instructor I know there is Greg, can't vouch for the others. The Tactics Martial Arts Instructors

Interesting, there was a guy I heard that used to teach a mixed hybrid traditional art but with fighting in my area and also closed down a while ago. I heard from someone once that he was really good also. Why do so many good places end up closing down? But I see many places around NY that are like mcdojo's still around? It's hard finding a good Japanese style school. Anyway, that Tactical school looks pretty awesome, I'll also look into it.

Depending on if you'd consider BJJ a japanese art, you've also got Emerson Souza's place. He's a great instructor (is actually my instructor's instructor) and AFAIK the only 5th degree BJJ Black Belt on long island. Emerson Souza Brazilian Jiu Jitsu | Baldwin, NY

I'm definitely going to consider it. I'm also looking for a great instructor and it's basically like jiu-jitsu right?

Someone I used to train with (and competes at least in BJJ, I think MMA but not 100% sure) now goes to bellmore kickboxing mma specifically for striking, and last we spoke he only had good things to say. Been a couple years though so that could easily change. https://www.bellmorekickboxingmma.com

Thanks! And it's very close by too.

I'd offer my own place as well, which I guess is technically a traditional dojo but it doesn't have the 'traditional' feel if that's what you're looking for, but it's half an hour away in no traffic, which I'm guessing is too far.

It might be, but I'm definitely willing to hear more about it, because I may consider far places if I can't find any good Japanese art style near by.

Thank you again.

 

[Silverblade8]

Looked at the site and did a little digging around YouTube and Facebook. A few thoughts...

If it matters to you, this is not a traditional Japanese system. It's a modern American system created, as far as I can tell, by the head instructor. It's not clear who his instructors were, but based on the info he gives in his bio I'm guessing the arts he originally trained in* were also mostly modern American systems. If you go back a few generations, I'm sure it mostly derives from some combination of karate, judo, and aikido.

(None of the above necessarily indicates anything good or bad about the quality of the instruction or the art.)

I found a few clips of demos and belt tests for the school. My personal reaction is … meh. I've seen much worse and I've seen much better. Not a place I'd personally go for at this point in my development, but then again I could say that about most schools. Once they're open again check them out for yourself and see if you like the atmosphere.

*He lists dan ranks in the following:
Goshin-Budo Ju-Jitsu. This is a name currently used by Shoto Tanemura for one of the arts he created, but the date is a number of years before Tanemura did so. I expect it was someone else using the same, fairly generic, terminology.
Hara-Ha Buke Budo Kyokai. Never heard of it and can't find any info on it.
Rensei-Do. Never heard of it and can't find any info on it.

Thank you for the info. Yeah, I can't say much about it myself as I have no idea about the place, but I was feeling a bit skeptical when I checked it out. Not sure what it is, just not feeling it. Not really a fan of that type of system. Maybe I'd check it when they're open one day, but I might look into something else instead.

I have a question though, why do I still see many places that teach stuff that doesn't always teach the arts the way they were meant to be? Or have kids with brown or black belts? Is that a bad thing?

 

[CB Jones]

why do I still see many places that teach stuff that doesn't always teach the arts the way they were meant to be?

How are they meant to be?

 

[Silverblade8]

How are they meant to be?

That was my mistake, I meant some that change the system and Americanize it or sometimes water it down?

But there are places I heard that evolve into an American system that are still very good.

 

[CB Jones]

I meant some that change the system and Americanize it or sometimes water it down?

Alot if not most of the time it happens when retaining quantity of paying students is more important than retaining quality of training.

 

[skribs]

Alot if not most of the time it happens when retaining quantity of paying students is more important than retaining quality of training.

Another thing to consider is that a student will learn a lot more at half-speed over 5 years than they will at full speed over 5 months. If they burn out and quit right away, then it doesn't matter how hard you train, because they're not going to get as far as if you gently push them over an extended period of time.

When I first started teaching, I was quite frustrated with some of the quality of our lower-level belts, and even some of our higher-level colored belts. At my old school, we got very detailed information starting from white belt as to what your stances should be, exactly how to do every technique, and we focused on building good habits in the technique from the start. At my current school, we just start students off doing an approximation of the technique, and refine it over time. It was easy for me to look back on what I knew as a lower belt at my old school and compare it to my new school.

It took a couple of years for me to see the results. It took me seeing students that started under me as a white belt, and see them when they're going for their red belt and black belt, to really see the effects of my Master's teaching style. And 90% of those things that frustrated me were usually ironed out by black belt. Most of that which remained; gone by 2nd degree. Those students made it a lot farther in 3 years and 5 years, than they would have if I was stricter for a couple months, and then they burn out. My plan might involve us having better skilled purple belts and green belts...but might also result in us having significantly less black belts.

Yes, having less students burn out is also good for finances. But it's also good for the students. It's a mutually beneficial situation.

 

[Flying Crane]

Another thing to consider is that a student will learn a lot more at half-speed over 5 years than they will at full speed over 5 months. If they burn out and quit right away, then it doesn't matter how hard you train, because they're not going to get as far as if you gently push them over an extended period of time.

When I first started teaching, I was quite frustrated with some of the quality of our lower-level belts, and even some of our higher-level colored belts. At my old school, we got very detailed information starting from white belt as to what your stances should be, exactly how to do every technique, and we focused on building good habits in the technique from the start. At my current school, we just start students off doing an approximation of the technique, and refine it over time. It was easy for me to look back on what I knew as a lower belt at my old school and compare it to my new school.

It took a couple of years for me to see the results. It took me seeing students that started under me as a white belt, and see them when they're going for their red belt and black belt, to really see the effects of my Master's teaching style. And 90% of those things that frustrated me were usually ironed out by black belt. Most of that which remained; gone by 2nd degree. Those students made it a lot farther in 3 years and 5 years, than they would have if I was stricter for a couple months, and then they burn out. My plan might involve us having better skilled purple belts and green belts...but might also result in us having significantly less black belts.

Yes, having less students burn out is also good for finances. But it's also good for the students. It's a mutually beneficial situation.

Do you have reason to believe that those beginners would have burned out if you were more strict and demanded higher quality from them in the early stages? It looks to me like you are making an assumption that may not bear out. Might be that you could have better quality purple and green belts which would lead to more solid black belts, without losing any significant number of students.

 

[skribs]

Do you have reason to believe that those beginners would have burned out if you were more strict and demanded higher quality from them in the early stages? It looks to me like you are making an assumption that may not bear out. Might be that you could have better quality purple and green belts which would lead to more solid black belts, without losing any significant number of students.

Well for one, I saw it when I was stricter (before my Master had talks with me) and people did leave.

But it's not just me and my experience with Taekwondo. Here's a video I saw a long time ago from Chewjitsu, a BJJ guy:

The whole video is a good story about what I'm talking about, but at 6 minutes in he literally says what I said. He'd rather train a kid for years than have someone win a tournament right away and then quit because they're being pushed too hard.

He does have other videos talking about smashing white belts if they get cocky. But he's also said in other videos your job as a white belt is just to show up and survive.

It also plays into the concept of increasing resistance over time in a grappling art, or sparring just above their level (instead of way above their level) in a striking art. The way it manifests in technical demonstration (as is common in TKD or Karate in the form of forms), it's increasing the level of detail you expect to see.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I understand. Actually now that I think about it, maybe the distance won't be so bad. You can tell me the places and I'll see what I can do!



It's np. I actually checked the site more and looked on FB and I'm feeling a bit skeptical about it now and not sure why? It doesn't look bad and it is very close to me, just not sure if they offer what I'm looking for.



I actually heard from someone that this is a very good and reputable place. I'll definitely look more into it. If you're not skilled at fighting, will they help you out?



Interesting, there was a guy I heard that used to teach a mixed hybrid traditional art but with fighting in my area and also closed down a while ago. I heard from someone once that he was really good also. Why do so many good places end up closing down? But I see many places around NY that are like mcdojo's still around? It's hard finding a good Japanese style school. Anyway, that Tactical school looks pretty awesome, I'll also look into it.



I'm definitely going to consider it. I'm also looking for a great instructor and it's basically like jiu-jitsu right?



Thanks! And it's very close by too.



It might be, but I'm definitely willing to hear more about it, because I may consider far places if I can't find any good Japanese art style near by.

Thank you again.

Ill send you a pm later tonight or tomorrow with details on the other places.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

That was my mistake, I meant some that change the system and Americanize it or sometimes water it down?

But there are places I heard that evolve into an American system that are still very good.

Changing and "Americanizing" (or Brazilianizing or Britishising or Koreanizing or whatever) doesn't necessarily meaning watering down a system or making it worse. It's just another form of the change that just about every martial art goes through over time.

Here are some reasons that an art can change:

• Generations of instructors and/or practitioners have actual fighting experience which they incorporate the lessons from into the art.
• Generations of instructors don't have actual fighting experience and so they incorporate new elements into the art based on what they imagine might work.
• Instructors have experience in multiple martial arts and attempt to blend the techniques/principles/training methods into one system. This can be done anywhere from extremely well to extremely badly.
• If the art has (or adds) a competitive sport aspect, then the rules and requirements of that sport can drive developments in the technical foundation of the art.
• An instructor may change an art based on the techniques and tactics which work well for that individual's body type, personality, or personal goals.
• An instructor may never have learned the full original system and so they fill in the gaps based on other experiences, their imagination, and/or trial and error.
• The full original system may have had significant gaps, which the instructor fills in based on other experiences, their imagination, and/or trial and error.
• An art may move to a new country, where there are different cultural tendencies and situational needs.
• An art may move to a new country where it is deliberately altered for nationalistic reasons.
• An instructor may deliberately water down the training experience for commercial reasons - to make the art more accessible to the casual practitioners who make up the majority of the paying student body.
• An instructor may create a new art in order to break away from their own instructor so they can be the head of a new system. This may involve major or minor changes to the original curriculum or it may just mean changing the name of the art. Often this involves jumping up in rank - either self-awarded or awarded via an outside organization which exists to cash checks and provide a fig leaf of legitimacy.
• An art can shift over time as practitioners happen to get good at a particular technical specialty, which they then practice more because it's fun and effective to do what you're already good at, so they get even better and teach others and it forms a feedback loop.
• and so on

Often the evolution of an art may involve a number of these factors.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So still going to PM you probably tonight (technically tomorrow, it'll be like 1am probably), but wanted to address a couple things in here.

I actually heard from someone that this is a very good and reputable place. I'll definitely look more into it. If you're not skilled at fighting, will they help you out?

My gut says yes. I don't know of a single place that produces good fighters, and does not help out their beginners. This place could be the exception though-those that say it's top notch are already fighting, so I don't really have a noobs perspective on the place.

Interesting, there was a guy I heard that used to teach a mixed hybrid traditional art but with fighting in my area and also closed down a while ago. I heard from someone once that he was really good also. Why do so many good places end up closing down? But I see many places around NY that are like mcdojo's still around? It's hard finding a good Japanese style school. Anyway, that Tactical school looks pretty awesome, I'll also look into it.

Because being good at martial arts does not equal being good at business. I've known plenty of good martial artists that have opened up places but either they don't do any marketing, they don't have any online presence, they're bad at selling themselves when people come in, or they're not fiscally literate. Doesn't mean what they taught was bad.

The other part of it is that the real money makers are kids. So if you don't have a kids program, you're probably not going to be able to afford rent/live off it. And if you're not good at teaching children, it doesn't matter how good your adult program is. Coincidentally, most parents don't care about legitimacy or fighting ability for their kids. They're concerned with will my kid have fun, will he use his aggression, will he gain confidence, and will I be able to brag about him (in the form of new belts/quick black belt). Less coincidentally, those seem to be the things that McDojos sell the best.

 

[Silverblade8]

Alot if not most of the time it happens when retaining quantity of paying students is more important than retaining quality of training.

Is this the case with the Goshinkan dojo? Because I checked them out and it says they've been around for almost 40 years. And looked at some of their videos and one shows them doing a live demo in front of everyone, with the head shihan saying they have the best training and instructors on Long Island. I'm just curious on how that works.

Changing and "Americanizing" (or Brazilianizing or Britishising or Koreanizing or whatever) doesn't necessarily meaning watering down a system or making it worse. It's just another form of the change that just about every martial art goes through over time.

Here are some reasons that an art can change:

• Generations of instructors and/or practitioners have actual fighting experience which they incorporate the lessons from into the art.
• Generations of instructors don't have actual fighting experience and so they incorporate new elements into the art based on what they imagine might work.
• Instructors have experience in multiple martial arts and attempt to blend the techniques/principles/training methods into one system. This can be done anywhere from extremely well to extremely badly.
• If the art has (or adds) a competitive sport aspect, then the rules and requirements of that sport can drive developments in the technical foundation of the art.
• An instructor may change an art based on the techniques and tactics which work well for that individual's body type, personality, or personal goals.
• An instructor may never have learned the full original system and so they fill in the gaps based on other experiences, their imagination, and/or trial and error.
• The full original system may have had significant gaps, which the instructor fills in based on other experiences, their imagination, and/or trial and error.
• An art may move to a new country, where there are different cultural tendencies and situational needs.
• An art may move to a new country where it is deliberately altered for nationalistic reasons.
• An instructor may deliberately water down the training experience for commercial reasons - to make the art more accessible to the casual practitioners who make up the majority of the paying student body.
• An instructor may create a new art in order to break away from their own instructor so they can be the head of a new system. This may involve major or minor changes to the original curriculum or it may just mean changing the name of the art. Often this involves jumping up in rank - either self-awarded or awarded via an outside organization which exists to cash checks and provide a fig leaf of legitimacy.
• An art can shift over time as practitioners happen to get good at a particular technical specialty, which they then practice more because it's fun and effective to do what you're already good at, so they get even better and teach others and it forms a feedback loop.
• and so on

Often the evolution of an art may involve a number of these factors.

Thank you. I now understand this much better.

So still going to PM you probably tonight (technically tomorrow, it'll be like 1am probably), but wanted to address a couple things in here.

It's cool, whenever you get the chance.

My gut says yes. I don't know of a single place that produces good fighters, and does not help out their beginners. This place could be the exception though-those that say it's top notch are already fighting, so I don't really have a noobs perspective on the place.

I'll be looking into it, since I'm open to trying MMA. But I'm still focused on trying to find a good traditional Japanese style school, which seems hard to find.

Because being good at martial arts does not equal being good at business. I've known plenty of good martial artists that have opened up places but either they don't do any marketing, they don't have any online presence, they're bad at selling themselves when people come in, or they're not fiscally literate. Doesn't mean what they taught was bad.

That I can understand.

The other part of it is that the real money makers are kids. So if you don't have a kids program, you're probably not going to be able to afford rent/live off it. And if you're not good at teaching children, it doesn't matter how good your adult program is. Coincidentally, most parents don't care about legitimacy or fighting ability for their kids. They're concerned with will my kid have fun, will he use his aggression, will he gain confidence, and will I be able to brag about him (in the form of new belts/quick black belt). Less coincidentally, those seem to be the things that McDojos sell the best.

Is that the kind of place that Goshinkan school is? I'm not trying to put anyone in a bad light by asking all these questions if it seems that way and if anyone on here happens to of gone there before so I apologize. I'm just trying to get all my information and facts straight before making any choices. Considering it's one of the closest Japanese martial art schools near me with all four Japanese arts combined from what it says on there.