"Marine Corps Martial Art"

loki09789

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I brought this point up in the past on the Modern Arnis format, I think and it didn't get much play. Maybe be too limited a format for the topic... but I wanted to know what others think about this:

The USMC has established a Martial art with belt rankings and curriculum and everything - similar to the Krav Magans and Republic of Korea (South) Marine TKD program (VERY different from the sport TKD here in the states). Those who are promoted through the belts also get points toward military rank promotion as well. The first belt, tan, is achieve in boot camp as part of the recruit training. After that, each unit is encouraged/expected to use the martial program to some degree as part of individual training and physical conditioning. To the best of my knowledge, those who are interested in becoming black belts/instructors are suppose to have prior martial training to the black belt level. I think this is a 'seeding' policy that could change once there is an established instructor corps. Also, black belts/instructors come from the NCO (Corporal and Sergeant ranks). Since it is part of an NCO job description to teach/train anyway, it is being used as a leadership development program as well.

Lots of stuff here but that is the background, my question is this:

How do you think these USMC martial arts instructors will fit into the civilian Martial arts market, when they get out or retire and throw up a shingle?

Things to consider that might put some of us on our toes:

The program works in conjunction with the Corps Values program, so there is a 'warrior' code of personal character/conduct linked to the art.

These artists will be the ONLY American martial artists who can claim a government sanctioned/recognized/verifiable lineage because their promotions/lineage and training/experience history is archived in records maintained by the government.

These instructors, at least the first generation of USMC vets/retirees, will be truly 'complete' martial arts trained: From battlefield tactics and skills, anti terrorism and weapons (ballistic/'cold' weapons) empty hand training all the way to force continuum and peace keeping type skills.

Granted, not all the instructors coming out to the civlilan world would be coming from the Combat jobs, some might be cooks, clerks... and so on, but since the USMC training is based on "Every Marine is a rifleman first" basic infantry skills are trained and maintained are part of everyones training. Not to mention that a cook,clerk... serving with a combat unit still has to go on patrols, pull perimeter duty, ... so it they could still have combat/operational experience.

Sorry for the volume, but lots to consider.

Paul M>
 
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loki09789

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Oh yeah,

I guess there is rumor that the US Army is likely to be implimenting the same type of program...

Paul M
 

theletch1

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There are already many MA instructors with a military background. I'm no instructor but am a former Marine myself. Hardheadjarhead on this forum is a former Marine also and is an instructor. The military mindset is, to some extent, toned down when dealing with civilians, even in a setting like a dojo. As for whether or not the MCMAP will fair well in the civilian world I think it will find a corps group :) of practitioners and if it proves useful in the street then it will flourish as well as any RBSD program. I for one wish we'd had this when I was on active duty.

As for the Army implementing something of their own...well, being an old leatherneck myself I just have to say that as usual the Corps was there first. :biggun: :)
 
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loki09789

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Semper Fi and all that HuYah!...

I know that many servicemen have taught martial arts, but what one of my concerns as far as competitiveness on a USMCMAP is the continuity of the art and instructor. Krav Magan's aren't teaching Krav Maga here, TKD instructors here are generally civilian instructors, not ROK Marines. This would be an art where the instructors grooming would be tied directly by lineage, philosophy and practice to the military source. This is different than what is out there now.

It could almost be coined the "new traditional art" because it would be like the jiujutsu instructors who came right out of the samurai class in Japan or the warrior monk who came right out of the temples. Autheniticy is the short of it I guess. That claim, could really give the rest of us a run for our money if this moves into the civilian market.

Even as a former Marine, I would be on the outside of this trend, and if I tried to say "Hey, I am a former Marine and am doing the same thing" it might come off as wannabeism. Just makes me think about the direction and trend of MA in the USA. In an age of terrorist watch/concern, this type of art could really take off. With the instructional sources already in the package, and not 'added on' or supplimenting an existing art, they could even say it is the only 'complete' system.

Paul M.
 
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loki09789

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"we would take the hill, turn it over to the army and they would give it right back..." (paraphrase of a former Marine/Korean war vet)...

After serving with both branches now, I still prefer the USMC model, but the US Army... of one:) definitely has proven itself over time as well.

Do you remember the "we have been doing so much with so little that now we can do anything with nothing" idea? I loved that one. Ah, memories...

Paul M.
 

Sapper6

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pickin on the Army huh...? thats like saying this Art is better than that Art. blah, blah, blah...im an army man myself, and here is my take on Army vs Marine stuff:

i think it's quite feasible to say that it is much CHEAPER to train a marine. in saying this, the US government has less money invested in your average Marine and that makes them more expendible than your average Army soldier. so yes, send them in first, let them die first, and then send in the Army to mop up the mess... :asian:

as for the Army MA program...there has been much talk about this in the Army world...will it ever happen...? i hope so...they need to find something else besides that watered down generic version of Goju Ryu they teach now.
 
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loki09789

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The red headed child of the military branches :(

"Just answer the question please, your under oath" (Matlock, episode 23):)

Paul M>
 

theletch1

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Sapper6 said:
pickin on the Army huh...? thats like saying this Art is better than that Art. blah, blah, blah...im an army man myself, and here is my take on Army vs Marine stuff:

i think it's quite feasible to say that it is much CHEAPER to train a marine. in saying this, the US government has less money invested in your average Marine and that makes them more expendible than your average Army soldier. so yes, send them in first, let them die first, and then send in the Army to mop up the mess... :asian:

as for the Army MA program...there has been much talk about this in the Army world...will it ever happen...? i hope so...they need to find something else besides that watered down generic version of Goju Ryu they teach now.
It is akin to the this art/ that art stuff but different in that when the crap hits the fan, you and I both know that we'd lay our lives down for each other just because we both got out of the rack under the same flag this morning. Don't call me cheap...just "low maintainance" :uhyeah:

I can see one of the new instructors trying to use the "complete" art advertisement but then there has to be truth in advertisement. Much of the training that takes place in the USMC in the vein of counter terror, NBC and such is done at different schools from each other. Will the appearance of legitimacy be a bonus? Sure, to some but no more so than anything else with a lineage. While I am interested in the MCMAP system I'd only cross train in it and certainly wouldn't change my art for it.
 

Nightingale

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I used to know a Marine Martial Arts Instructor Trainer.

Tan belt is the basic rank
Green belt is an instructor
Black belts train the instructors.

What he told me is that most of the "Instructor Trainers" are already black belts in other martial arts.
 
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littleyahiko

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I don't know any of the regulations or rules, so any military people out there, this is for you! I was curious, if these instructors are really getting some hardcore training, and all these anti-terrorism things, would they be allowed to become instructors at a school teaching the same stuff they taught in the military? Or would it be watered down for the public. I think if they did counter-terrorism scenarios and stuff it could be really cool. But maybe they won't be allowed to teach it to the general public. But like I said, I have no idea, anyone who would know?
 
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loki09789

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The type of 'anti-terrorism training' is the basic stuff that the general military gets: Basic briefings on the agenda, makeup and recruiting/operational tactics of terrorist groups and ways to reduce your chance of being targeted by terrorist groups, as well as what to do if you do get taken/attacked. I don't mean to imply the kicking down doors and taking on terrorists type of training, that is really 'counter terrorism' training. Maybe partially applicable, but not was I was meaning. Sorry if it came across that way.

Paul M
 
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loki09789

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Nightengale,

Did your friend mention any agreements or conditions that would keep trained instructors from taking the material and name into the general public?
 

Sapper6

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theletch1 said:
It is akin to the this art/ that art stuff but different in that when the crap hits the fan, you and I both know that we'd lay our lives down for each other just because we both got out of the rack under the same flag this morning. Don't call me cheap...just "low maintainance" :uhyeah:

you got it man...we all bleed green... :ultracool
 

Nightingale

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loki09789 said:
Nightengale,

Did your friend mention any agreements or conditions that would keep trained instructors from taking the material and name into the general public?

He didn't say. Sorry, I don't know, but he did show me some stuff, and I know he wouldn't if it had been classified, so there are probably no problems with it.
 
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loki09789

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Thanks,

What was the stuff he showed you, and what did you think of it.

From what I understand, it isn't a reinvention of the wheel. Pretty straight forward stuff. How was the quality of his movement. I am really curious because I haven't been able to get any details from my contacts so far... getting older and they are all getting older....

Paul M
 

Nightingale

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loki09789 said:
Thanks,

What was the stuff he showed you, and what did you think of it.

From what I understand, it isn't a reinvention of the wheel. Pretty straight forward stuff. How was the quality of his movement. I am really curious because I haven't been able to get any details from my contacts so far... getting older and they are all getting older....

Paul M

some of the stuff they teach is based on Parker Kenpo. He showed me the variations of some of the kenpo stuff I already knew. He moved like a kenpo black belt ought to.
 

Touch Of Death

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loki09789 said:
I brought this point up in the past on the Modern Arnis format, I think and it didn't get much play. Maybe be too limited a format for the topic... but I wanted to know what others think about this:

The USMC has established a Martial art with belt rankings and curriculum and everything - similar to the Krav Magans and Republic of Korea (South) Marine TKD program (VERY different from the sport TKD here in the states). Those who are promoted through the belts also get points toward military rank promotion as well. The first belt, tan, is achieve in boot camp as part of the recruit training. After that, each unit is encouraged/expected to use the martial program to some degree as part of individual training and physical conditioning. To the best of my knowledge, those who are interested in becoming black belts/instructors are suppose to have prior martial training to the black belt level. I think this is a 'seeding' policy that could change once there is an established instructor corps. Also, black belts/instructors come from the NCO (Corporal and Sergeant ranks). Since it is part of an NCO job description to teach/train anyway, it is being used as a leadership development program as well.

Lots of stuff here but that is the background, my question is this:

How do you think these USMC martial arts instructors will fit into the civilian Martial arts market, when they get out or retire and throw up a shingle?

Things to consider that might put some of us on our toes:

The program works in conjunction with the Corps Values program, so there is a 'warrior' code of personal character/conduct linked to the art.

These artists will be the ONLY American martial artists who can claim a government sanctioned/recognized/verifiable lineage because their promotions/lineage and training/experience history is archived in records maintained by the government.

These instructors, at least the first generation of USMC vets/retirees, will be truly 'complete' martial arts trained: From battlefield tactics and skills, anti terrorism and weapons (ballistic/'cold' weapons) empty hand training all the way to force continuum and peace keeping type skills.

Granted, not all the instructors coming out to the civlilan world would be coming from the Combat jobs, some might be cooks, clerks... and so on, but since the USMC training is based on "Every Marine is a rifleman first" basic infantry skills are trained and maintained are part of everyones training. Not to mention that a cook,clerk... serving with a combat unit still has to go on patrols, pull perimeter duty, ... so it they could still have combat/operational experience.

Sorry for the volume, but lots to consider.

Paul M>
There are a lot of people in love with the idea of the USMC. I think it would do just fine and certidied schools could recieve grants for members who join out of the program.
Sean
 

Tgace

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I did a little looking on the internet under the USMC martial arts program and saw there was a signifigant place for "body toughening". I saw photos of Marines trading roundhouse kicks to the thighs, forearm toughening etc. It was stated it was more for preparing the body for the experience of contact and not some sort of "iron shirt" training. Interesting...
 
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Black Bear

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Mr. Prime Minister, I just read the entirety of your post, and I certainly welcome anything that will raise the bar for MA/SD training in North America. It looks like this could.

I never would have seen it coming but it seems like a unique and excellent opportunity.
 
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loki09789

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THank you Madame Chairwoman the endorsement of you, and the parliment is very warming to my cockles... Doe princess's have cockles?

Seriously, this type of thing was the spring board for the current DEFENDO movement, that I believe has been revived by a Canadian LEO. The concept isn't original or unique, just interesting.

Nightengale,

I notice you mentioned that he moved like a Kenpo artist was 'suppose to move' and not just moved. Why the distinction, and do you think the direct 'combative' nature of the rest of your friends training/experience came into play?

Paul M
 
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