Man Refuses To Remove Flag From His Home

[MA-Caver]

Now this guy... heh... wants to fly a historical flag in the front of his home. I guess nothing is wrong with that however; the essential message of the flag, which is the famous Gadsden "Don't Tread On Me" flag from the American Revolution.

From Wiki: Since the Revolution, the flag has seen times of reintroduction as a symbol of American patriotism, a symbol of disagreement with government, or a symbol of support for civil liberties.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag

Seems that he has a right via AZ state statues that allow him to fly this particular flag... which he has done since January of this year until recently he gotten a notice in the mail asking him to remove debris from his house. ? Debris ?
Watching the video the guy is claiming innocence as to the WHYS they are asking him to remove the flag and he innocently states he wanted to honor the founding fathers and blah blah blah.

Arizona has a state statute that allows Arizonans to fly "the Stars and Stripes, the [COLOR=#366388 ! important][COLOR=#366388 ! important]state [COLOR=#366388 ! important]flag[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR], flags representing Indian nations as well as the official flags of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines and Coast Guard," the Times reports.
McDonel's homeowners' association is strictly interpreting that law to ban the flying of any other flags, including the Gadsden. The American Civil Liberties Union is defending McDonel, saying the homeowners' group is taking too strict a view of the statute and restricting McDonel's right to free speech.
McDonel is chronicling his struggle on a blog, where he is asking for donations for a potential legal battle.
McDonel isn't the only person to run into a dispute over the historic flag.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upsho...on-me-flag-starts-disputes-around-the-country

Yeah, right in Arizona of all places which just HAPPEN to be the place where immigration issues and arguments are going on. Your message isn't wholly lost upon us fella.

Still, as long as he is following the law then those who are offended by the flag can just argue about it next time the issue comes to vote.
This is a historical flag and while it's being used by other people for slightly different reasons than originally intended it still is the flag that represents opposition against tyranny.

Also from Wiki: Beginning in 2009, the Gadsden Flag has become an adopted symbol of the American Tea Party movement.[6][7] Tea Party activists have embraced the "Don't Tread on Me" flag and its message.[8] Nationwide it serves as an alternative to the stars and stripes[9] for Tea Party protesters upset at the current government yet still feeling patriotic. [10] It was also seen being displayed by members of Congress at Tea Party rallies.[11] Some lawmakers have dubbed it a political symbol due to the Tea Party connection,[9] and the political nature of Tea Party supporters.[12]

So is the guy illegally making a political statement? Or is he honestly wanting to honor our founding fathers? Is the HOA wrong to determine this flag is offensive?



What you think?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag#cite_note-11

 

[chrispillertkd]

I was unaware that people in this country needed laws to "allow" them to fly certain flags. Seems a bit odd, to me.

Pax,

Chris

 

[MA-Caver]

I was unaware that people in this country needed laws to "allow" them to fly certain flags. Seems a bit odd, to me.

Pax,

Chris

I found it odd too which is why I started this thread.
I can understand if it's anything related to a past enemy, i.e. Nazi, Japanese battle flag, Vietnamese, et al. Sure that would be insulting to fly anywhere in this country... but one of our own?
I think if the guy really wants to make a statement... he can take the current stars and stripes and fly it upside down.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I could be wrong, but when I first read this story, I was under the impression that the guy was not violating any laws, he was in violation of the rules of his Homeowners Association rules. Many residential areas have HOA's, and many of them have fairly strict rules about all sorts of things, including what kind of flags can be flown, how high, what kind of flagpole, when, and so on.

Hey, if you don't like the rules of the HOA, don't move into a HOA area that will forbid you to fly the flag of your choice. It's kind of like Sharia Law for the Homeowner's Associations - they want to have their own rules for their own neighborhoods, and everybody agrees to them when they move into the neighborhood; they always have the choice to go live somewhere else, or to join the HOA board and try to change the rules themselves.

I also read that this guy had been VP of the local HOA and decided to leave after getting in an argument with other members - as I recall - and now they're coming after him for minor violations. OK, I get it. Peyton Place politics.

But I don't think it's really about the Gadsden Flag. I've heard similar complaints about people getting in trouble for flying Marine Corps flags and other kinds of flags.

Heck, one guy got into trouble for flying the Mexican flag over his house. Seems some people don't like that much - they say you can fly the state flag or the US flag, but NO OTHER FLAG over your house. So the Gadsden Flag is, uh, not OK with them. Unless it is. I guess it depends on which side your bread is buttered, eh?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

3 houses near me fly Confederate flags. I've seen a half dozen flying MIA/POW flags. I'm ok with it.

Facebook is however deleting accounts of anyone who posts the Gadsden flag I heard.

 

[Carol]

I suspect the chain of events went like this:

Homeowner flies Gadsden flag.

Other residents complain to HOA.

HOA checks bylaws, to find that they do not have a bylaw that forbids flying the Gadsden flag.

HOA uses AZ state law as a crutch to make up for the fact that they can't find anything in writing to specifically preclude the homeowner from flying the Gadsden flag.

Ironically, the namesake of the flag, Christopher Gadsden, had a grandson named James Gadsden...also from South Carolina. James Gadsden successfully negotiated negotiated a piece of land from Mexico that is now part of Southern Arizona -- the Gadsden Purchase -- which made it possible for a railway to be built from the Mississippi out to California...leading to the growth of the American Southwest.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2010/08/gadsen_flag_shouldnt_be_banned.php

McDonel says he started flying the flag in front of his Laveen home in January because it looks cool and symbolizes his patriotism. A couple of weeks after he quit the HOA board of directors, he received a letter ordering him to remove the flag or face a fine. He's not sure what prompted the HOA to go after his flag.

I think he ticked off someone on the HOA board and they went looking for something to gig him with.

As far as Arizona state law goes:

What's especially troubling about this case is the HOA's refusal to budge even though a state law seems to block HOAs from banning military flags. As the ACLU's Meetze notes, though, the law isn't perfectly clear. It states, in part, that HOAs can't prohibit:
The American flag or an official or replica of a flag of the United States army, navy, air force, marine corps or coast guard...
Clearly, the Gadsden flag was once used by branches of the military. The law doesn't say anything about historical military flags, but the Gadsden seems to fit the spirit of the law.

Frankly, I find the entire thing a bit amusing. People who live in the suburbs started HOAs way back when. The government didn't come up with them, residents and homeowners did. They did it to protect the value of their property, to ensure they were living in the kind of neighborhoods they wanted to live in; even for less-wholesome reasons like racism (back in the day). HOA's are US!!! Now they're the evil bad guy. Oh please.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeowner_association

People love HOAs when they make the slob down the street quit parking Chevys on his lawn or make him mow the grass before it's three feet high. They love HOAs when it keeps their nutty neighbor from painting his house that garish shade of purple or keeping their Christmas lights up year 'round. Then they make some guy take down a flag and everyone thinks the devil just came right down to earth and wiped his bottom with that flag. Can we grow up a little bit here? It's not a big deal.

 

[terryl965]

I just want to know why does anybody give a **** about a flag in someone yard? What the **** has our country gone to, when you cannot fly an American flag? Lets go and become a country of doing what the man say because lord knows we are not smart enough to figure it out by ourself. Last things is simple will someone go and put their foot up the HOA *** so it will not be so tight.....

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I just want to know why does anybody give a **** about a flag in someone yard? What the **** has our country gone to, when you cannot fly an American flag? Lets go and become a country of doing what the man say because lord knows we are not smart enough to figure it out by ourself. Last things is simple will someone go and put their foot up the HOA *** so it will not be so tight.....

It's like this. People often want to live the way they want to live. They created HOAs so that they could, to the extent possible, live in a neighborhood that reflected their own values. These have been around forever. Most people like them when they're doing things like making sure that the neighbor doesn't paint his house a ghastly shade of purple.

Now imagine this same guy was flying a flag that others found offensive, maybe even you. Perhaps a KKK flag, or a Nazi flag. Would you think it was OK then? Perhaps, but if you had to live next door to the guy? If you thought what it might do to property values?

So the HOA maybe has a no-flag rule that means no flags that are not the US flag, the state flag, or the flags of the various branches of service. They don't particularly care about the Gadsden flag one way or another, but if they try to make a rule for each and every kind of flag out there, they'll be at it forever, so they just have a general no-flag rule.

And this rule existed when the guy moved in. He had a copy of the agreement, he signed it. He's free to move out of the area and fly whatever flag he likes.

It's not really about the Gadsden flag. It's about people having the right to control how they live, in cooperation with those around them. The HOA would never have existed if people of like mind hadn't created them. And the HOA can change whatever rule they wish to, like any quasi-government corporation; just vote and it's done. So they don't want the flag in the neighborhood. Wah. Big deal. They also don't want cars parked on lawns with no wheels on them. That's how it goes.

 

[terryl965]

Bill that is a great way of saying it but for the record I do not care about HOA and what they do. They where invented so the few could manipulate the many and make money. I was in California when they started this **** and it was prityful. I wish people would have enough common sense to let people live their lives and worry about themself and yes you sre right the HOA can and will change rules when they need them to be. Alot of the times it was never a rule when you bought the house but because someone finds it offensive they make a new rule and even when they do not have enough votes they still finds way of making things happen. Not trying to piss in anybody corn flakes but we need to worry more about the economy and the fallen job rate in this country not a flag.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill that is a great way of saying it but for the record I do not care about HOA and what they do. They where invented so the few could manipulate the many and make money.

No, they were invented so that people would not have to worry about having a jerk move in next door to them and destroy the resale value of their home. I live in such an area now. It doesn't allow trucks with lettering on the sides to be parked permanently in the streets. Not a big deal for me. I suppose it would be for some guy who runs a business that has such a truck as his personal vehicle, but it's not like he would not know about the rule before moving in.

With regard to condos and that kind of thing, they were invented so that common areas would be maintained; parking lots repaved, lines painted on parking spots, abandoned cars not kept in lots, etc.

I was in California when they started this **** and it was prityful. I wish people would have enough common sense to let people live their lives and worry about themself and yes you sre right the HOA can and will change rules when they need them to be. Alot of the times it was never a rule when you bought the house but because someone finds it offensive they make a new rule and even when they do not have enough votes they still finds way of making things happen. Not trying to piss in anybody corn flakes but we need to worry more about the economy and the fallen job rate in this country not a flag.

Do people have the right to live as they wish or not? That's all a HOA is. School boards do it, every municipality does it. One town near hear doesn't let people park cars on the street at night, period. I don't care for that - so I don't live there. Life goes on.

Again, if the guy was flying a Nazi flag, then you'd want the HOA to 'do something' about it if he was your neighbor. It all depends on whether you like his flag or not, instead of whether or not a rule that the HOA agreed upon should be followed. It's silly business.

 

[Nomad]

So far, my neighbours have not complained about the Canadian flag flying in my backyard (clearly visible from the street) in San Diego.

Of course, it will be time to take it down soon (pretty sun-faded at this point anyway), and replace it with the Jolly Roger, at least until after Halloween.

Yeah, he's probably making a political statement with the flag. Um... ok. Last time I checked this was still theoretically a free country. Did I miss the memo?

 

[seasoned]

Sad thing is no matter what we do nowadays we will offend someone. My neighbor flies a beer flag, it's a good thing I'm not a teetotaler.

 

[terryl965]

Bill just for the record and I believe you to know this, I am Jewish and if somebody wanted to fly a Nazi flag on there property so be it. Little things such as that really does not effect me at all. Since somethings have been brought up remember when they did not allow high school to fly the confederate flag, I do because I went to a school called South Grand Prairie, we did not care about the south vs. the north it was about two rival high schools having fun. Did they change the name of the school no just made us stop waving a southern flag, what a waste of good fun for all the high schools. To many groups complaining about other groups, let us live as we always have free from fear,anger and free of being free.

 

[WC_lun]

Personally I don't care if or what flag someone flies on thier personal property. Heck, if they are flying something like a nazi flag, it tells me something about them without having to meet them. The thing is though, if he is part of a HOA that has rules against it and he was the vice pres of said organization, he knew the rules. So while he was vice pres he supported following the HOA, but now that he doesn't like one of those rules, he feels he doesn't have to follow the HOA rule. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I could be wrong, but when I first read this story, I was under the impression that the guy was not violating any laws, he was in violation of the rules of his Homeowners Association rules. Many residential areas have HOA's, and many of them have fairly strict rules about all sorts of things, including what kind of flags can be flown, how high, what kind of flagpole, when, and so on.

Hey, if you don't like the rules of the HOA, don't move into a HOA area that will forbid you to fly the flag of your choice. It's kind of like Sharia Law for the Homeowner's Associations - they want to have their own rules for their own neighborhoods, and everybody agrees to them when they move into the neighborhood; they always have the choice to go live somewhere else, or to join the HOA board and try to change the rules themselves.

HOAs are evil.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

HOAs are evil.

Here's the deal. I don't care for HOA's either, for the most part. Given my choices, I would not live in an area that had one.

However, they are still voluntary; if you don't want to live in an area where there is an HOA, don't. If you don't like their rules, read the bloody agreement before signing it and if you find it restrictive, don't sign and don't live there.

And like it or not, they reflect the desire of the people who DO live there to live as they wish and to set rules which reflect their own values. Freedom means not only the freedom to live as one wishes, but to group together with others who feel the same way.

Most people hate HOAs until the neighbor parks a chevy with no wheels on his lawn and the place starts looking like hell. Then they call the city and find out there's no public nuisance law in their own and gee if they only had an HOA, they could make the guy get rid of the car.

And HOA is also similar to apartment renting. In my former apartment complex, they had rules against things like BBQ grills on the patio. Many people complained about how EVIL that rule was. Then some idiot burned down the building with a hibachi on the patio. Suddenly everyone wanted to know what the apartment wasn't vigorously enforcing the rules!

Anyway, HOA evil? Not hardly. They're voluntary. Don't like it, don't live there. How hard is that?

 

[geezer]

Anyway, HOA evil? Not hardly. They're voluntary. Don't like it, don't live there. How hard is that?

er, OK then. They're a voluntary evil.

 

[Carol]

I think one issue with HOAs is that some buyers (not all) do not take HOA contracts seriously enough. I had 70 pages of association paperwork to look over with my condo.

Most folks would rather not sign a 70 page employment contract unless they have had a chance to discuss the matter with an attorney or similar mentor.

So why is it that people see fit to sign in to 70 page HOA contracts, without the advice of a similar subject matter expert to guide them?

A HOA can do more to affect the property value of your house -- for good, or ill, or both -- than any other factor of the property. Not all associations are alike. Some are definitely better than others.

It is very important for the buyer to understand what makes a good association/contract and what makes a bad one before the commitment of a mortgage. Easier said than done.

Personally, I like being in an HOA. It best fits my needs at this moment in time.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Personally, I like being in an HOA. It best fits my needs at this moment in time.

For a condo, it absolutely makes sense. If the HOA lets the parking lots go to heck, or don't paint and take care of the common areas, or lets trash pile up, or don't take steps to keep people from doing auto repair work in the parking spots, etc, etc, your value in your home plummets with the appearance of the place. And you're trapped in there; not like you can put up a privacy fence or grow a hedge or something. I totally get it.

I chafe a bit under the constraints where we're at now. We're renting a house; but the HOA here has already been 'round to tell us that we're not fertilizing enough, my $500 car is 'unsightly' and so on. Urgh.