Man Mugs 101 Year Old Woman and Punches Her in The Head Three Times
- Thread starter Jonathan Randall
- Start date
Shaderon
Master of Arts
I for one would like to see a relative of the old lady catch up with him.... what goes round comes round.... as soon as possible before he does it again.
This kind of creature (not I didn't say man) doesn't deserve a decent life, yea Kreth, I hope he resists arrest too... against a copper with a problem with old lady beaters.
This kind of creature (not I didn't say man) doesn't deserve a decent life, yea Kreth, I hope he resists arrest too... against a copper with a problem with old lady beaters.
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
Ancient world poetic punishments are sometimes appropo. Cut off his hands so he can neither steal again, nor punch another old woman.
Barbaric and horrid, I know. And I stand behind it.
Dave
Barbaric and horrid, I know. And I stand behind it.
Dave
I hope you're writing your congressman and senators demanding a repeal of the Eigth Amendment prohibition on cruel and unusual punishments, then. If Islamic law is what's best for this country, endorse it.
You wouldn't rather wait until it's learned whether he's mentally ill or not before doing this, or is that irrelevant?
I really don't understand why people feel the law is incapable of addressing this. What's the maximum sentence possible for (felony, I presume?) assault & battery & robbery in NY? It appears there would be two counts (two victims)? The age and infirmity would likely be considered aggravating circumstances? Is ther ereally a concern that he'll get a six-month suspended sentence?
I realize that this is somewhat off-topic, but I do think it is relevant in the context of where the conversation has gone, and why so many people feel that the US Justice System may not be enough in this case. Nationally, the vast majority of all felony cases are plea-bargained - see here, here, here, and here, found in a google search that I ran based on several news stories I recall hearing.
In addition, many felony convictions that result in incarceration end in early release, as described here:
This article describes some of the problems early release has led to. These articles, and many others, came from a google search as well, also triggered by news articles I have either seen or read.
So, to answer your question... no, I do not have that much faith in the Justice System's ability to catch, contain, and properly prevent recidivism by this person, or those like him.
Lazyness is the Hallmark of a true criminal.
Sean
I understand Arnisador's points completely on this one, as there is nothing more terrifying than the fully understandable backlash of emotions for something like this crime.
I'm not saying that anyones responses are 'wrong' per se, for my own reaction was of the "Give me and my shinken ten seconds with him" ilk. However, if 'we' (realising I'm not American) are to be even remotely civilised as a society, to be accused should not be the same as to be guilty.
If there is video evidence that is clear, then try the slime in a state with capital punishment (assuming he's not mentally ill) as anyone capable of that has no right to walk amongst his fellows.
______________________________________
For the record, that was me being reasonable and balanced, fighting against any moral person's instinctive outrage against such an unforgiveable atrocity - if I gave my keyboard fingers free rein, I'd be indistingushable from Kacey in the tone of my resonses.
I'm not saying that anyones responses are 'wrong' per se, for my own reaction was of the "Give me and my shinken ten seconds with him" ilk. However, if 'we' (realising I'm not American) are to be even remotely civilised as a society, to be accused should not be the same as to be guilty.
If there is video evidence that is clear, then try the slime in a state with capital punishment (assuming he's not mentally ill) as anyone capable of that has no right to walk amongst his fellows.
______________________________________
For the record, that was me being reasonable and balanced, fighting against any moral person's instinctive outrage against such an unforgiveable atrocity - if I gave my keyboard fingers free rein, I'd be indistingushable from Kacey in the tone of my resonses.
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
I don't know anything about New York. In California, with Jail overcrowding and whatnot, about the only thing that would ensure he didn't get a ridiculously light sentence, or only serve a small portion of the sentence that he did get, would be the media scrutiny of the case and it's extenuating circumstances (age of the victims driving the coverage).
We had a murder here in Nor. Cal. recently...witnessed by half a dozen people, rising out of a half-dozen gangstas harassing a double date of thiry-forty somethings in a garage in a medium sized town, not known for it's gang activity or high crime rate. They started verbal harassment, followed by a grabbing of one of the women's backsides, followed by a fight, followed by shooting the male combatant to death because he was winning. I met the victim of the heiny grab and cousin of the deceased at a recent social function; nice lady. Several of the perps are walking around, free. AFTER being released from hospitals, because of the whooping the dead guy was putting on them.
I have personally been the target of assaults by folks who were supposed to still be behind bars, but were not. Jail as a firm deterrent has been ineffective and costly, not only to tax-payers, but to the victims of recitivist crimes.
I was in Saudi Arabia for a short time after Storm 1. In the open-air gold market, the vendors walked away from their carts without locking up, or fear of theft, to answer the call to prayer. I was amazed, until I learned the Religious Police usher all bystanders into a particular part of the town square to witness the punishments meded out to offenders...lopping off a hand. Turns out, it's hard to find a citizen who hasn't directly witnessed this, or the effects of it (i.e., guy with a stub cleaning dishes).
I interviewed my hosts as to what deterred crime...severity, or surety. They answered...surety of severity. Crooks know they're gonna get tooled; no appeals, no lack of Miranda rights, no shortened sentences due to over-crowding, etc. They were joking about the U.S. justice system that could have video evidence of wrongdoing with positive I.D. and arrests, and the perp still walks.
Do I have faith in the justice system to provide deterrence from these sorts of crimes? No. I do not. This hideousness is too prevalent, and the courts (at least on the Left coast) too lenient. Does this mean I endorse an Islamic revolution? No. False dichotomy; you can do better, including seeking clarification or elaboration.
Dave
Mark L
Brown Belt
I think it is irrelevant, if it's provable that he did it and a conviction results, then he should be punished to the full extent of the law. Do you imagine any victim would be less physically and emotionally traumitized simply because the attacker is ill? We are all responsible for our own actions, whether we're sane, schitzophrenic, sociopathic, drunk, drugged, depressed, PMSed, or just in a bad mood.
Hmmm, insanity and involuntary drunkness (someone else slipped you a drug and you did something illegal while under its influence) are usually defenses. I can't agree with what you've written.
Yes, early releases due to this are an issue. We've had a lot of that in Indiana too. I'm not sure that the earlier proposed solution of encouraging other inmates to mete out additional extra-judicial punishment is the best solution. (This is not what you suggested, but is what started this part of the discussion.) You propose amputation in lieu of jail? Is that right?
My point, though, is that if you don't have faith in your own country's criminal justice system then this is a serious problem and should be dealt with in a way that will lead to meaningful changes.
I said Islamic law (post #24), not an Islamic revolution. Straw man argument.
I understand your points about the effectiveness of the punishments in Islamic countries. (Non-Islamic nations have at times had similar punishments.) Are you suggesting changing the law to allow for amputation as a punishment for certain crimes in the U.S.?
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
I have always had a hard time finding a party affiliate; the dems think I'm too soft on some issues, and the publican's think I'm too hard-core on others. Nobody wants me, cuz they all think I'm too extreme.
In my own pea-little brain, there are some crimes which are mroe hideous than others. I am for castration of rapists; it's basically an act of murder (stripping away an individuals freedom of existence by force), and should be met with with an act of stripping away something by force. Not chemical cstration, but shears. Wide awake.
I am for the death penaltry for rapists. It was there in our nation once, but racial prejudices caused more men of color to hang or get gassed then WASP's...a sign of abuse, which would be the devil in the deatils we would have to work out. As a wasp, I do not know, nor have I known, a owman who was not sexually abused or assaulted at some time in her life. It's pandemic in the extreme, and seems to cross all social strata and SES categories. If you knew for ab-so-friggin-lutely sure that your "boys" were gonna swinfg from a string if you followed that impulse, because uncle Harry already has a high voice, the surety of that detereent may decrease the amount of sexual violence in this nation.
According to FBI crime clock stats, 1 out of three women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime, and report it to the authorities for statistical indexing. According to polls, less than half of women assaulted report; meaning we're up to 2 out of 3 women. That's a plague, and it exists because we permit it.
Amputation for thieves: Not all thievery is on the same plane, and many law canon's have a ratability system. A child taking candy from an opened bin is not the same as someone beating an old woman or killing a bum in the course of taking his bag of weed. Depending on the special circumstance, yes. For this guy, yes. Let's say he and his kids are starving, and due to some snafu in the system, he's unable to get relief. Let's assume his mother is also at home, dying painfully of cancer, and he needs money for meds to ease her passing. He could have snatched the old womans purse without beating her up. She's old. One startling slap would have been overkill.
Mental illness? A roommate works at a State Mental Hospital, where criminally unwell are maintained. A staff of thousands are kept to watch a couple hundred folks in crisis. Some need attention to heal, some are just .07 cent solutions waiting to happen, and will either never get out, or go right back to criminal activity upon release. As an oddball no political party wants...I strongly advocate for the betterment of care for the people who live there (typical liberal). The conditions are horrific; not much better than third world prisons. I wouldn't place my dog in one of those facilities. I'm also for the summary execution of about half the people in there (too extreme even for the neo-cons); they are angry, violent, crazy people with no hope of recovery, some who have gotten close on meds then declined meds in exchange for the high of insanity, and so on.
In our ridiculously liberal society, we have stopped matching punishments to fit the crime. A 3-striker in this state can be put away for life for stealing bread to feed his family, while murderers walk despite fingerprints, DNA evidence and witnesses, because their civil rights were violated by not being read their miranda. Criminal immigrants are released into the streets instead of deported, because the jails are too full, and Immigration to busy to come get them or process them.
So, yeah. For the extreme cases, cut them off.
D.
In my own pea-little brain, there are some crimes which are mroe hideous than others. I am for castration of rapists; it's basically an act of murder (stripping away an individuals freedom of existence by force), and should be met with with an act of stripping away something by force. Not chemical cstration, but shears. Wide awake.
I am for the death penaltry for rapists. It was there in our nation once, but racial prejudices caused more men of color to hang or get gassed then WASP's...a sign of abuse, which would be the devil in the deatils we would have to work out. As a wasp, I do not know, nor have I known, a owman who was not sexually abused or assaulted at some time in her life. It's pandemic in the extreme, and seems to cross all social strata and SES categories. If you knew for ab-so-friggin-lutely sure that your "boys" were gonna swinfg from a string if you followed that impulse, because uncle Harry already has a high voice, the surety of that detereent may decrease the amount of sexual violence in this nation.
According to FBI crime clock stats, 1 out of three women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime, and report it to the authorities for statistical indexing. According to polls, less than half of women assaulted report; meaning we're up to 2 out of 3 women. That's a plague, and it exists because we permit it.
Amputation for thieves: Not all thievery is on the same plane, and many law canon's have a ratability system. A child taking candy from an opened bin is not the same as someone beating an old woman or killing a bum in the course of taking his bag of weed. Depending on the special circumstance, yes. For this guy, yes. Let's say he and his kids are starving, and due to some snafu in the system, he's unable to get relief. Let's assume his mother is also at home, dying painfully of cancer, and he needs money for meds to ease her passing. He could have snatched the old womans purse without beating her up. She's old. One startling slap would have been overkill.
Mental illness? A roommate works at a State Mental Hospital, where criminally unwell are maintained. A staff of thousands are kept to watch a couple hundred folks in crisis. Some need attention to heal, some are just .07 cent solutions waiting to happen, and will either never get out, or go right back to criminal activity upon release. As an oddball no political party wants...I strongly advocate for the betterment of care for the people who live there (typical liberal). The conditions are horrific; not much better than third world prisons. I wouldn't place my dog in one of those facilities. I'm also for the summary execution of about half the people in there (too extreme even for the neo-cons); they are angry, violent, crazy people with no hope of recovery, some who have gotten close on meds then declined meds in exchange for the high of insanity, and so on.
In our ridiculously liberal society, we have stopped matching punishments to fit the crime. A 3-striker in this state can be put away for life for stealing bread to feed his family, while murderers walk despite fingerprints, DNA evidence and witnesses, because their civil rights were violated by not being read their miranda. Criminal immigrants are released into the streets instead of deported, because the jails are too full, and Immigration to busy to come get them or process them.
So, yeah. For the extreme cases, cut them off.
D.
Mark L
Brown Belt
How would you console the victim in the case of the former? Sorry you got beaten, we know who did it, but he's been diagnosed with ailment A, so you just have to get over it while we get him some help with your tax dollars. The latter smacks of "He made me do it.", there'd have to be some pretty slick lawyering backed up with overwhelming hard evidence to get me to bite on that.
I place great weight on personal responsibility, I don't believe our justice system does. I'll agree to disagree with you.
Is the purpose of a justice/penal system to console the victims?
Inability to form intent is part of the reason insanity is a defense. Being convicted of a crime usually (not always) requires having had the intent to commit it. That's why young children are often not convicted of crimes. If a 2 year old pushes another 2 year old out a window, is it murder if the latter dies? The usual analysis is that the former lacked the intent to commit murder, in part because he likely failed to understand the fundamentals of physics and the permanence of death; hence, no jail sentence for the 2 year old (but maybe for a negligent parent). Now what if it's an adult with a child's IQ or so insane that he can't reason straight? He could be a danger to society and hence it would be necessary to separate him from society, but would he be a criminal? Criminalizing mental illness concerns me. There are people who are mentally ill through no fault of their own. If they can still tell right from wrong, punish them. If they can't...what's the sense of punishing people who don't know what they're doing? What does such punishment accomplish?
Fair enough!
Mark L
Brown Belt
No, the purpose is to ensure that justice is served. Perhaps console was the improper word to use. How would you explain to that woman that justice has been served if the man whos' fists so clearly struck that womans' head isn't punished according to the laws of that jurisdiction? And I do believe the justice systems should be held accountable for its' actions.
Minors are not held to the same standard as adults by our system, so no, I wouldn't expect a jail sentence. I also wouldn't allow him or her to be near any other children without domineering adult supervision for quite a long time.
If they have commited a crime, then by definition they are a criminal.
I'm not suggesting we criminalize mental illness, simply that we don't use it as an excuse to let someone off. I guess I'm bothered by the notion that some who are victimized (through no fault of their own, like this old woman) are denied justice by the very system that is in place to ensure it. I wish I had a blueprint for a system that answers both of these viewpoints, but I don't ...
In Spokane the mental health industry is ridiculously underfunded. When a patient does somthing while in some mania or delussion. I know there are people all over who would just love to see the guy fry, but maybe just maybe the State should be held responsible just a little, and that means the voting public. I.E. you get what you pay for. That goes for the Child protection service as well. If the people really cared they would get kids out of problem homes, but hey lets all throw a big party watching those parents get convicted. Too bad for the dead kid though... maybe we should have done something when the problem was originaly brought to our attention.:soapbox:
Sean
Sean
Blotan Hunka
Master Black Belt
Why are we already making excuses for this guy? mental illness? Why? For all we know hes a mentally healthy as anybody else and just morally corrupt. Patch that hole in your heart, its bleeding a little too much. Here we are turning this thread into "what if the poor mugger is ill?" What about the poor old lady, no drops of blood for her? Justice should be served for the VICTIM not ON the perpetrator. This crap really irks me. Perhaps hes just a misunderstood, poor downtrodden, abused child that had no choice to beat up little old ladies. Have him move in with ya then.
Absolutely. In total agreement.
It was too calculating a crime for it to have been the result of a delusional state. I have some familiarity with Bipolar and Schizoaffective Disorder and, IMO, "real" delusions demonstrate themselves in quick impulses - not calculated assault and robbery. In other words, a person suffering mania and delusion might strike out at someone near them, and thus, for the safety of themselves and others, require hospitalization - but that is a sudden occurence where they truly are "not there" and not cases of stalking for robbery as this lowlife did. That is why the legal definition of insanity is NOT supposed to consider cases of pre-meditation and with attempts to avoid capture or discovery as valid insanity defense cases. That is why even deranged serial killers are usually not "criminally insane" from a defense standpoint.
Similar threads
