Looking for the truth

[IcemanSK]

Today I came across this item: http://www.taekwondo-4self-mastery.com/sabamnim.html
which says that to be elligible for the title Sabum (for Kukkiwon graded folks) one needs to be a 4th Dan & have completed the Kukkiwon Instructor's training program. I've heard the former, but not the latter. Can anyone shed light on this? Is that simply this guy's idea, or is there any truth to it?

Also, if you've been to the KKW Instructor's training course, please talk about it. There's little info on the KKW web site. I assume it's a great opportunity. What does that course afford one after it's completed?

 

[Last Fearner]

...to be elligible for the title Sabum (for Kukkiwon graded folks) one needs to be a 4th Dan & have completed the Kukkiwon Instructor's training program...

Can anyone shed light on this? Is that simply this guy's idea, or is there any truth to it?

Iceman,

I looked that website over, and could not find any reference as to who the author was, or what affiliation they had with any organization (a bit odd). I noticed that they attempted to provide general information about many different Taekwondo organizations (Kukkiwon, WTF, ITF, A.T.A., etc), and they used the logos from those organizations. I wonder if they had permission to use those logos (I doubt it). I tend to be skeptical about an alleged authority on Taekwondo who calls a Dojang a "Dojung." The phonetic spelling of Sabeom (사&#48276 has created many translations, but to use "Sabam" is completely the wrong vowel.

I think I wrote something about this topic of titles in another thread awhile back, but to the best of my knowledge, the Kukkiwon has nothing to do specifically with titles such as "Jokyo" 조교 (Jo-kyo-nim: assistant) Kyosa 교사 (Kyo-sa-nim: Instructor) or "Sabeom" 사범 (Sa-beom-nim: Master). These titles, along with the permission to assist instruction, teach classes, or open a school, comes from your Grandmaster (unless a person goes off independently, and teaches without permission or authority). If your teacher is legitimate, then your title and authority to teach is probably legitimate.

Check the entire Kukkiwon website. Unless I am mistaken, you will find no mention of the title of Sabeom at all. You will find no requirements listed for teaching, opening a school, or anything other than BLACK BELT DAN RANK. There is one mention of the term Kwanjangnim, but as I recall, it is a vague reference to recommendation for promotion. Technically, anyone who heads an organization is a Kwanjang (Dean of schools) by default.

If that person's rank, and organization is not recognized by the Kukkiwon, then any Sabeom title, or any Dan rank within that organization is based solely on the authority (if any) from the Kwanjang. However, if that person's rank and organization is recognized by the Kukkiwon (example: Sr. Grandmaster Edward B. Sell, Kukkiwon 9th Dan, Kwanjangnim of the U.S. Chung Do Kwan Association), then every instructor's title within that organization carries the backing of the Kukkiwon without specifically being certified from the Kukkiwon.

Many Koreans of the Kwan era, scoffed at the notion that they need "Kukkiwon permission" to teach or hold their rank. They note that they were a high ranking Dan and Master Instructors before the Kukkiwon was even created, and they get their permission from their own teacher who is authorized through direct lineage of one of the five original Kwans.

Keep in mind, the recent improvements in organization at the Kukkiwon, and opening up training and certification to Black Belt instructor's around the world have made instructor courses (hence certification) from the Kukkiwon a reality. However, to open a Taekwondo Dojang in Korea might require the permission of the Korean government as well as the Kukkiwon, but outside of Korea, permission rarely extends beyond that of your own Kwanjang. Times are changing, and with all of the imposters, it might be good thing to have teaching credentials required by the Kukkiwon above and beyond Dan rank so people learn that there is a difference. However, I know of no such requirements outside of Korea as of yet.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

as of yet.

I feel expense coming our way...

 

[IcemanSK]

Iceman,

I looked that website over, and could not find any reference as to who the author was, or what affiliation they had with any organization (a bit odd). I noticed that they attempted to provide general information about many different Taekwondo organizations (Kukkiwon, WTF, ITF, A.T.A., etc), and they used the logos from those organizations. I wonder if they had permission to use those logos (I doubt it). I tend to be skeptical about an alleged authority on Taekwondo who calls a Dojang a "Dojung." The phonetic spelling of Sabeom (사&#48276 has created many translations, but to use "Sabam" is completely the wrong vowel.

I think I wrote something about this topic of titles in another thread awhile back, but to the best of my knowledge, the Kukkiwon has nothing to do specifically with titles such as "Jokyo" 조교 (Jo-kyo-nim: assistant) Kyosa 교사 (Kyo-sa-nim: Instructor) or "Sabeom" 사범 (Sa-beom-nim: Master). These titles, along with the permission to assist instruction, teach classes, or open a school, comes from your Grandmaster (unless a person goes off independently, and teaches without permission or authority). If your teacher is legitimate, then your title and authority to teach is probably legitimate.

Check the entire Kukkiwon website. Unless I am mistaken, you will find no mention of the title of Sabeom at all. You will find no requirements listed for teaching, opening a school, or anything other than BLACK BELT DAN RANK. There is one mention of the term Kwanjangnim, but as I recall, it is a vague reference to recommendation for promotion. Technically, anyone who heads an organization is a Kwanjang (Dean of schools) by default.

If that person's rank, and organization is not recognized by the Kukkiwon, then any Sabeom title, or any Dan rank within that organization is based solely on the authority (if any) from the Kwanjang. However, if that person's rank and organization is recognized by the Kukkiwon (example: Sr. Grandmaster Edward B. Sell, Kukkiwon 9th Dan, Kwanjangnim of the U.S. Chung Do Kwan Association), then every instructor's title within that organization carries the backing of the Kukkiwon without specifically being certified from the Kukkiwon.

Many Koreans of the Kwan era, scoffed at the notion that they need "Kukkiwon permission" to teach or hold their rank. They note that they were a high ranking Dan and Master Instructors before the Kukkiwon was even created, and they get their permission from their own teacher who is authorized through direct lineage of one of the five original Kwans.

Keep in mind, the recent improvements in organization at the Kukkiwon, and opening up training and certification to Black Belt instructor's around the world have made instructor courses (hence certification) from the Kukkiwon a reality. However, to open a Taekwondo Dojang in Korea might require the permission of the Korean government as well as the Kukkiwon, but outside of Korea, permission rarely extends beyond that of your own Kwanjang. Times are changing, and with all of the imposters, it might be good thing to have teaching credentials required by the Kukkiwon above and beyond Dan rank so people learn that there is a difference. However, I know of no such requirements outside of Korea as of yet.

I appreciate your words on this sir. This guy did seem to be a bit scattered in his thoughts & a bit unclear. My thought that, if what he said was true, it would have come up before somewhere that I might have heard of it before. The item that you brought up about one's GM's word being all the credential one needs makes more sense.

Thanks!

 

[Steel Tiger]

Iceman,

I looked that website over, and could not find any reference as to who the author was, or what affiliation they had with any organization (a bit odd). I noticed that they attempted to provide general information about many different Taekwondo organizations (Kukkiwon, WTF, ITF, A.T.A., etc), and they used the logos from those organizations. I wonder if they had permission to use those logos (I doubt it). I tend to be skeptical about an alleged authority on Taekwondo who calls a Dojang a "Dojung." The phonetic spelling of Sabeom (사&#48276 has created many translations, but to use "Sabam" is completely the wrong vowel.

I too have looked over the site and found some references to the author, not by name, mind you. He said he is a 35 year student of Chun Kae Bae and is the Contact Us section there is a button marked ContactMasterNaples. Don't know if this helps identify the author or his organisation, however.

I hope for the sake of all you who do TKD that the KKW does not add any offical qualifications to earning the title Sabum. Good Luck.

 

[Last Fearner]

He said he is a 35 year student of Chun Kae Bae and is the Contact Us section there is a button marked ContactMasterNaples.

Thanks for finding that. I looked hard, but I guess I didn't look thorough enough.

I did a quick internet search and found the following:

http://www.grandmasterchuntkd.com/MasterSamNaples.html

http://www.taekwondo-4self-mastery.com/hoshinsul.html

It seems that Master Sam Naples is a 7th Dan with the Jidokwan. His credentials and lineage seems legit, and rather impressive from what I can see. I spent many years getting to know some of the top Jidokwan Grandmasters, and I can see some of the biased perspectives in his writings. I've heard Korean Grandmasters in America continue to set themselves above American Masters by first saying you had to be 4th Dan to be called a "Master" or run a school. Then when too many Americans rightfully became 4th Dan, they would say, no, a "Master" is a 5th Dan. Next, I would hear them say, "In Korea, no one can open a school unless they are 6th Dan, and they are considered the lowest level of Master. You must be a 6th Dan to be a Sabeom!" Wait another decade, I'm sure it will be 7th or 8th Dan soon!

Anyhow, this page here: http://mysite.verizon.net/res740pt/id13.html

contains a tribute written to the late Ernest H. Lieb, a Jidokwan Master from Muskegon, Michigan (actually not far from me), which was written by Master Sam Naples. 10th Dan Ernie Lieb died in a train crash in Germany on September 26, 2006. The whole page is an interesting read, but you can search the page for "Naples" with your own browser's find feature, and locate his comments.

On the subject of Kukkiwon requirements, I still think Master Naples is speaking from a Jidokwan influence, and his own Grandmaster's interpretation, without actually quoting genuine written rules of the Kukkiwon.

 

[kik]

As of right now, You are considered a master at 4th dan. But from what I have heard, the KKW is going to be changing that standard as soon as 2008. When that happens you will need to be a 5th dan to be considered Master. Of course the consensus is that all existing 4th dans will be grandfathered in as masters.

Kik

 

[Miles]

Today I came across this item: http://www.taekwondo-4self-mastery.com/sabamnim.html
which says that to be elligible for the title Sabum (for Kukkiwon graded folks) one needs to be a 4th Dan & have completed the Kukkiwon Instructor's training program. I've heard the former, but not the latter. Can anyone shed light on this? Is that simply this guy's idea, or is there any truth to it?

Also, if you've been to the KKW Instructor's training course, please talk about it. There's little info on the KKW web site. I assume it's a great opportunity. What does that course afford one after it's completed?

In Korea, to be able to get a business license to open a Taekwondo dojang, one must be 4th dan and pass the 3rd class instructor course at Kukkiwon.

Outside of Korea, different countries and states have their own requirements as to when someone is qualified to be a Taekwondo instructor. I live in Michigan where there is no license requirement to teach Taekwondo, but one must be licensed to hold other occupations, such as lawyer, physician, barber, undertaker, etc.

The Kukkiwon Instructor Course is a great opportunity and I recommend that anyone interested in teaching take the course. The course teaches you how to perform Taekwondo in the standardized manner in which the Kukkiwon propagates. It also teaches you how to teach.

When you have graduated (i.e. passed the exams), you get a certificate which says you are a 3rd class instructor. It does not mention "master" or "sabum." I saw a statistic that only about 1/2 of the attendees pass.

If anyone is interested, I have my "diary" which I kept during the Instructor Course and would be happy to either post it as a thread or email.

Miles

 

[IcemanSK]

If anyone is interested, I have my "diary" which I kept during the Instructor Course and would be happy to either post it as a thread or email.

Miles

I would love it if you emailed it to me here, sir.

 

[terryl965]

Iceman there is an old saying

The Truth
You can't handle the truth
​

Ok since that is out of the way, it is one man opinion so why does this bother you so much, you have a great GM in Sells and you have a greta organization. I guess I'm just a little concern about all this endevour you are on. I hope your training can help you find the right path. Remember every single person has there ideals and remember it is there ideals.​

 

[Last Fearner]

When you have graduated (i.e. passed the exams), you get a certificate which says you are a 3rd class instructor. It does not mention "master" or "sabum."

That is my understanding that there is no mention of those terms. You just pass a course that proves you have been trained on how to teach Taekwondo according to Kukkiwon standards. "Master" or "Sabeom" are titles bestowed on you by your own Grandmaster.

That is very generous of you to offer to share your diary, exile.

In Korea, to be able to get a business license to open a Taekwondo dojang, one must be 4th dan and pass the 3rd class instructor course at Kukkiwon.

Here is another point that goes beyond any certification or official course. If you are a legitimate Black Belt, especially in Korea, then you are studying under a Grandmaster. Regardless of your rank, or any certificates, you are going to need their blessings to open your own school. You don't just go out like many "McDojang" Black Belts and say, "I think I'll open up my own school here and start teaching!" You could be a 4th, or 5th Dan, and your Grandmaster says, "No, I need you to assist instruction at my Dojang instead."

As of right now, You are considered a master at 4th dan. But from what I have heard, the KKW is going to be changing that standard as soon as 2008. When that happens you will need to be a 5th dan to be considered Master.

Ok, here is where I believe we need credible citations and references as to sources of information. No disrespect to you, kik, but just because one person comes on the internet and says it, does not make it true. Where did you hear this, and where is it written in any rules, or official documentation? I have heard many high ranking Korean Grandmasters, from many different organizations and Kwans say different things, If you say you must be a 4th Dan to be a "master," by whose authority, and where is that officially stated for all to see?

I would not be surprised if the Kukkiwon comes up with a new course, with training, tests, and certification (plus additional fees) for the title of "Master" or any other such title in the future! However, I have never seen of it being officially in use as of yet. BTW, for those who are not familiar with the USCDKA, Sr. Grandmaster Sell does have test requirements separate from Dan rank, specifically for each title of instructorship from assistant, to instructor, Sr. Instructor, Master, Chief Master, Professor, etc, and you must upgrade your Instructor Title separately from your rank.

 

[IcemanSK]

Iceman there is an old saying

The Truth
You can't handle the truth​

Ok since that is out of the way, it is one man opinion so why does this bother you so much, you have a great GM in Sells and you have a greta organization. I guess I'm just a little concern about all this endevour you are on. I hope your training can help you find the right path. Remember every single person has there ideals and remember it is there ideals.​

I really don't worry that I'm "missing out" on anything great, Terry. I'm quite confident in what I have in GM Sell. I just read this gentleman say something I'd never heard before & I was curious as to whether this was a new thing from the KKW. I value Miles' experience that it's a good & worthwhile course to take (although not manadatory outside of Korea). Besides, the title Sabum doesn't excite me. I'm waiting to be refered to as "Grand Poohbah" by my students.:mst:

 

[terryl965]

I really don't worry that I'm "missing out" on anything great, Terry. I'm quite confident in what I have in GM Sell. I just read this gentleman say something I'd never heard before & I was curious as to whether this was a new thing from the KKW. I value Miles' experience that it's a good & worthwhile course to take (although not manadatory outside of Korea). Besides, the title Sabum doesn't excite me. I'm waiting to be refered to as "Grand Poohbah" by my students.:mst:

The thing that worries me a little is this Sabanum does not mean Master at all, the defination is Head Instructor, so why can't any of these folks get it right in the first place.
Iceman I know you have a great org. and you was just wondering, but like everything else in TKD every tom dick and harry is trying to better themself with people jumping aboard there way of thinking. Well me for one is staying with the KKW and that is it. The WTF is not promoting and offering club a chance to be something, they just over seee the rules for the sport of TKD. So many people need to really get a handle of what is truth and what is fiction in the world of TKD.

 

[Laurentkd]

Here is another point that goes beyond any certification or official course. If you are a legitimate Black Belt, especially in Korea, then you are studying under a Grandmaster. Regardless of your rank, or any certificates, you are going to need their blessings to open your own school. You don't just go out like many "McDojang" Black Belts and say, "I think I'll open up my own school here and start teaching!" You could be a 4th, or 5th Dan, and your Grandmaster says, "No, I need you to assist instruction at my Dojang instead."[/quote]

Funny you mention this as it is the exact situation I am in now (except I am in the US, not Korea)!!

 

[Last Fearner]

Funny you mention this as it is the exact situation I am in now (except I am in the US, not Korea)!!

Yeah, that's what happens when you study under legitimate high ranking authority (wherever you are), and you respect their input. Of course, some people would rather spend their entire teaching careers as the number one or two senior instructors under a well respected Grandmaster rather than opening their own Dojang. After the GM retires or dies, that adds up to a pretty good set of credentials either way, and the close contact supervision can really pay off! :mst: :ultracool