Locking Horns-Front Headlock

[MJS]

Thought we could discuss this technique as well as any variations you may have. Any Tracy stylists please feel free to discuss your version of this.

1) With feet in line with each other and body bent forward, step forward with your right foot towards 11 o'clock and deliver a right upward vertical reverse handsword to opponents groin while simultaneously having your left hand check opponents right thigh just above the knee and your chin turned, so as to keep your breathing constant.

2) Immediately follow up with a right vertical obscure elbow strike to opponents jaw while keeping in a low right neutral bow.

3) After snapping the elbow to opponents jaw, loop your right elbow and strike again, shuffling forward if needed, to the left side of opponents jaw as your left palm heel strike hits to the right side causing a sandwiching effect.

 

[JamesB]

Thought we could discuss this technique as well as any variations you may have. Any Tracy stylists please feel free to discuss your version of this.

ok I'll have a go

1) With feet in line with each other and body bent forward, step forward with your right foot towards 11 o'clock and deliver a right upward vertical reverse handsword to opponents groin....

Nature of the attack is quite important here I feel. I realise that this technique is always described this way (as above), but I feel it is important that when practising this technique that the defender should not 'offer' their head to the attacker.

The way we approach this technique, is for the defender to be standing straight, in a natural stance. The attacker then uses a distraction technique (punch to the body, kick to groin, whatever really) to force the defender into a posture where the front-headlock can actually be applied realistically.

I use a finger-whip to the groin (using the back of the hand/fingers) instead of the handsword as this is faster for me, and results in the arm already being aligned better (i.e chambered and your palm facing back) for the following obscure-vertical-elbow strike. The whip also seems more effective in terms of the effect you want, and also has a greater margin for error due to the surface-area of the weapon you have formed.

.....while simultaneously having your left hand check opponents right thigh just above the knee and your chin turned, so as to keep your breathing constant.

Might it be risky to use the palm of the left hand to check the attacker's knee? If you are fast enough then maybe you can get your hand down quick enough to keep the knee/leg from coming off the ground - this would be an ideal way to control the attacker's posture. However if the knee is already travelling up then trying to counter this with a palm would result in a broken wrist. Maybe emphasising the use of the outside of the forearm would be an option - this way you keep the attacker's knee from striking you as it glances harmlessly on your 'outside'. Thoughts on this anyone?

Thoughts on turning the head+chin to keep your breathing constant: I've been taught that because this is a head-lock attack and not a choke, breathing is not a major problem in this technique. Rather, the head should be kept facing forwards at all times, because to turn the head to the side actually aids the attacker as he is applying the headlock.

This is how I understand the attack: The attacker's right arm loops over the top of your head then circles underneath. He holds your head in the crook of his right arm, at the side of his chest rather than holding you in front of him. His left arm holds onto right wrist and is 'in tight' against his own body. His aim is to turn your head clockwise (his viewpoint) and to your right shoulder.

When he gets your head to this position you will find it very difficult to move as the strain on your neck is so large you will have to drop your left shoulder to compensate. Most of your weight will be on your left leg and at this point the defence cannot realistically be executed. By keeping your head turned to the center makes it difficult for the attacker to fully apply the lock. If you turn your chin even a little bit the attacker will use this against you and apply the lock.

That's what I've been taught, but I should point out that I've never had to try this out for real, although by training the attack this way it does seem very realistic when we train it in class - i.e. the attacker _really_ trying hard to get that lock on, and the defender executing the technique against a good deal of resistance.

2) Immediately follow up with a right vertical obscure elbow strike to opponents jaw while keeping in a low right neutral bow.

I always used to have difficulty with this part of the technique - always used to get tangled up with the attacker's arms. However I've been taught that because of the way the attacker is typically going to hold you in the lock - with his arms tight in against his own body (he will also be standing more on your right-side rather than directly in front), this elbow-strike tracks straight up on the outside of the attacker's arms and hits directly under the attacker's jaw, and is the ideal strike to be using here.

Also the timing from the groin-shot to the rising elbow is important. If you pause after the groin-shot the attacker may react by shifting his hips back, placing his body-wight on top of you, making standing up rather difficult. I 'bounce' the finger-whip straight to the vertical-elbow-strike as one move. I think about it like this: To be effective, the vertical-obscure-elbow must be chambered by dropping your arm straight down, so that the arm is aligned correctly prior to striking. The fingerwhip / handsword is just something you do whilst chambering the arm for the elbow-strike, it is not a distinct move in it's own right.

3) After snapping the elbow to opponents jaw, loop your right elbow and strike again, shuffling forward if needed, to the left side of opponents jaw as your left palm heel strike hits to the right side causing a sandwiching effect.

We've got an extra move in here. Directly after the lifting vertical-elbow strike (in #2) we pivot (and push-drag if necessary) into a right-forward-bow, simultaneously executing a left push-down block to the attacker's lower centerline, whilst chambering the right fist at the side of our chest. The chambering produces a better structured (stronger) upper-body and provides alignment for the pushdown block.

The effect of the pushdown-block is to check the attacker's height+depth in place, and forces the attacker into a posture with his head in line with our own shoulders. Following on from this we can then exectute the right inward-elbow-sandwhich you describe, to either side of the attacker's jawline.


James

 

[Doc]

ok I'll have a go



Nature of the attack is quite important here I feel. I realise that this technique is always described this way (as above), but I feel it is important that when practising this technique that the defender should not 'offer' their head to the attacker.

The way we approach this technique, is for the defender to be standing straight, in a natural stance. The attacker then uses a distraction technique (punch to the body, kick to groin, whatever really) to force the defender into a posture where the front-headlock can actually be applied realistically.

I use a finger-whip to the groin (using the back of the hand/fingers) instead of the handsword as this is faster for me, and results in the arm already being aligned better (i.e chambered and your palm facing back) for the following obscure-vertical-elbow strike. The whip also seems more effective in terms of the effect you want, and also has a greater margin for error due to the surface-area of the weapon you have formed.



Might it be risky to use the palm of the left hand to check the attacker's knee? If you are fast enough then maybe you can get your hand down quick enough to keep the knee/leg from coming off the ground - this would be an ideal way to control the attacker's posture. However if the knee is already travelling up then trying to counter this with a palm would result in a broken wrist. Maybe emphasising the use of the outside of the forearm would be an option - this way you keep the attacker's knee from striking you as it glances harmlessly on your 'outside'. Thoughts on this anyone?

Thoughts on turning the head+chin to keep your breathing constant: I've been taught that because this is a head-lock attack and not a choke, breathing is not a major problem in this technique. Rather, the head should be kept facing forwards at all times, because to turn the head to the side actually aids the attacker as he is applying the headlock.

This is how I understand the attack: The attacker's right arm loops over the top of your head then circles underneath. He holds your head in the crook of his right arm, at the side of his chest rather than holding you in front of him. His left arm holds onto right wrist and is 'in tight' against his own body. His aim is to turn your head clockwise (his viewpoint) and to your right shoulder.

When he gets your head to this position you will find it very difficult to move as the strain on your neck is so large you will have to drop your left shoulder to compensate. Most of your weight will be on your left leg and at this point the defence cannot realistically be executed. By keeping your head turned to the center makes it difficult for the attacker to fully apply the lock. If you turn your chin even a little bit the attacker will use this against you and apply the lock.

That's what I've been taught, but I should point out that I've never had to try this out for real, although by training the attack this way it does seem very realistic when we train it in class - i.e. the attacker _really_ trying hard to get that lock on, and the defender executing the technique against a good deal of resistance.



I always used to have difficulty with this part of the technique - always used to get tangled up with the attacker's arms. However I've been taught that because of the way the attacker is typically going to hold you in the lock - with his arms tight in against his own body (he will also be standing more on your right-side rather than directly in front), this elbow-strike tracks straight up on the outside of the attacker's arms and hits directly under the attacker's jaw, and is the ideal strike to be using here.

Also the timing from the groin-shot to the rising elbow is important. If you pause after the groin-shot the attacker may react by shifting his hips back, placing his body-wight on top of you, making standing up rather difficult. I 'bounce' the finger-whip straight to the vertical-elbow-strike as one move. I think about it like this: To be effective, the vertical-obscure-elbow must be chambered by dropping your arm straight down, so that the arm is aligned correctly prior to striking. The fingerwhip / handsword is just something you do whilst chambering the arm for the elbow-strike, it is not a distinct move in it's own right.



We've got an extra move in here. Directly after the lifting vertical-elbow strike (in #2) we pivot (and push-drag if necessary) into a right-forward-bow, simultaneously executing a left push-down block to the attacker's lower centerline, whilst chambering the right fist at the side of our chest. The chambering produces a better structured (stronger) upper-body and provides alignment for the pushdown block.

The effect of the pushdown-block is to check the attacker's height+depth in place, and forces the attacker into a posture with his head in line with our own shoulders. Following on from this we can then exectute the right inward-elbow-sandwhich you describe, to either side of the attacker's jawline.


James

Lots of things going on here James. First you need a stable stance. That's anothe issue addressed in person. If you're 'bending over' and there is any resistance, coming forward is impossible. Second, lets look at the 'headlock.' You're correct its not a 'choke' its a 'cervical lock and a strangle.' Keeping your head straight forward will insure failure, and once again you will be unable to move forward. Put5 this one on your list, and I will striaghten it out. Very complex because of the nature of the attack, and lots of mechanisms to learn to counter and survive. Claire will be over soon, and maybe I can pass a few things to her.

 

[JamesB]

Lots of things going on here James. First you need a stable stance. That's anothe issue addressed in person. If you're 'bending over' and there is any resistance, coming forward is impossible.

Ah ok... stable stances taken on board, but I understood that rather than stepping forwards, the attacker pulls you forward, or otherwise dictates where your feet are going more than you can (the defender)? Can't imagine what mechanisms+footwork would be needed here so I'll wait until I'm taught this technique at this level of detail

Second, lets look at the 'headlock.' You're correct its not a 'choke' its a 'cervical lock and a strangle.' Keeping your head straight forward will insure failure, and once again you will be unable to move forward. Put5 this one on your list, and I will striaghten it out. Very complex because of the nature of the attack, and lots of mechanisms to learn to counter and survive.

I was understanding 'headlock' to mean a direct hold onto the head - i.e. around the head and face, rather than around the neck which is what I think you are implying by saying this is a strangle? I've got to go back now and read my notes for this technique But I do find that with a headlock (using my description) turning the head does seem to help the attacker rather than help the defender. I guess the nature of the attack is not what I imagine it to be - i.e the strangle must be taken into consideration.

Claire will be over soon, and maybe I can pass a few things to her.

sounds good although it's unlikely we'll meet up until 'summer-camp'. Say 'hi' to her for me, won't you.

james

 

[MJS]

ok I'll have a go



Nature of the attack is quite important here I feel. I realise that this technique is always described this way (as above), but I feel it is important that when practising this technique that the defender should not 'offer' their head to the attacker.

The way we approach this technique, is for the defender to be standing straight, in a natural stance. The attacker then uses a distraction technique (punch to the body, kick to groin, whatever really) to force the defender into a posture where the front-headlock can actually be applied realistically.

Very good point! When learning this technique, I was taught the same thing...that the attacker had done something to cause us to bend over, such as a punch to the stomach. IMHO, I feel that teaching the student the nature of the attack is very important. We're certainly not going to 'offer' our hand to them if we're doing a wrist grab technique.

I use a finger-whip to the groin (using the back of the hand/fingers) instead of the handsword as this is faster for me, and results in the arm already being aligned better (i.e chambered and your palm facing back) for the following obscure-vertical-elbow strike. The whip also seems more effective in terms of the effect you want, and also has a greater margin for error due to the surface-area of the weapon you have formed.

Good point! I never thought about that.



['quote]Might it be risky to use the palm of the left hand to check the attacker's knee? If you are fast enough then maybe you can get your hand down quick enough to keep the knee/leg from coming off the ground - this would be an ideal way to control the attacker's posture. However if the knee is already travelling up then trying to counter this with a palm would result in a broken wrist. Maybe emphasising the use of the outside of the forearm would be an option - this way you keep the attacker's knee from striking you as it glances harmlessly on your 'outside'. Thoughts on this anyone?[/quote]

Agreed. I prefer the forearm block as well.

Thoughts on turning the head+chin to keep your breathing constant: I've been taught that because this is a head-lock attack and not a choke, breathing is not a major problem in this technique. Rather, the head should be kept facing forwards at all times, because to turn the head to the side actually aids the attacker as he is applying the headlock.

When doing techs. against a headlock or sleeper type choke from behind, I had always tucked and turned towards the crook of their arm while at the same time, using my hands to pull down a bit so as to create some breathing room. I'd imagine this would be possible to do with this tyupe of attack, however you would have to let go if the knee started to come. However as Doc pointed out, getting a stable base is important.

This is how I understand the attack: The attacker's right arm loops over the top of your head then circles underneath. He holds your head in the crook of his right arm, at the side of his chest rather than holding you in front of him. His left arm holds onto right wrist and is 'in tight' against his own body. His aim is to turn your head clockwise (his viewpoint) and to your right shoulder.

When he gets your head to this position you will find it very difficult to move as the strain on your neck is so large you will have to drop your left shoulder to compensate. Most of your weight will be on your left leg and at this point the defence cannot realistically be executed. By keeping your head turned to the center makes it difficult for the attacker to fully apply the lock. If you turn your chin even a little bit the attacker will use this against you and apply the lock.

That's what I've been taught, but I should point out that I've never had to try this out for real, although by training the attack this way it does seem very realistic when we train it in class - i.e. the attacker _really_ trying hard to get that lock on, and the defender executing the technique against a good deal of resistance.



I always used to have difficulty with this part of the technique - always used to get tangled up with the attacker's arms. However I've been taught that because of the way the attacker is typically going to hold you in the lock - with his arms tight in against his own body (he will also be standing more on your right-side rather than directly in front), this elbow-strike tracks straight up on the outside of the attacker's arms and hits directly under the attacker's jaw, and is the ideal strike to be using here.

Also the timing from the groin-shot to the rising elbow is important. If you pause after the groin-shot the attacker may react by shifting his hips back, placing his body-wight on top of you, making standing up rather difficult. I 'bounce' the finger-whip straight to the vertical-elbow-strike as one move. I think about it like this: To be effective, the vertical-obscure-elbow must be chambered by dropping your arm straight down, so that the arm is aligned correctly prior to striking. The fingerwhip / handsword is just something you do whilst chambering the arm for the elbow-strike, it is not a distinct move in it's own right.



We've got an extra move in here. Directly after the lifting vertical-elbow strike (in #2) we pivot (and push-drag if necessary) into a right-forward-bow, simultaneously executing a left push-down block to the attacker's lower centerline, whilst chambering the right fist at the side of our chest. The chambering produces a better structured (stronger) upper-body and provides alignment for the pushdown block.

The effect of the pushdown-block is to check the attacker's height+depth in place, and forces the attacker into a posture with his head in line with our own shoulders. Following on from this we can then exectute the right inward-elbow-sandwhich you describe, to either side of the attacker's jawline.


James

Good points! Thanks for taking the time to reply!

Mike

 

[MJS]

Lots of things going on here James. First you need a stable stance. That's anothe issue addressed in person. If you're 'bending over' and there is any resistance, coming forward is impossible. Second, lets look at the 'headlock.' You're correct its not a 'choke' its a 'cervical lock and a strangle.' Keeping your head straight forward will insure failure, and once again you will be unable to move forward. Put5 this one on your list, and I will striaghten it out. Very complex because of the nature of the attack, and lots of mechanisms to learn to counter and survive. Claire will be over soon, and maybe I can pass a few things to her.

Doc, I know there have been discussions regarding proper footwork, stances, etc. when defending against a bearhug. Considering we're not upright, but instead bent over, what foot position would you suggest to deal with the possible resistance? I'm thinking a forward bow may still work from here.

Mike

 

[JamesB]

When doing techs. against a headlock or sleeper type choke from behind, I had always tucked and turned towards the crook of their arm while at the same time, using my hands to pull down a bit so as to create some breathing room. I'd imagine this would be possible to do with this tyupe of attack, however you would have to let go if the knee started to come. However as Doc pointed out, getting a stable base is important.

yeah looks like I'm misunderstanding the head-turning aspect...although turning the head towards the crook of the arm (as you say) would seem to be a good way to: 1. keep the choke/strangle off and, 2. also prevent the attacker from applying the lock fully as I was trying to say in my initial response.

Doc, I know there have been discussions regarding proper footwork, stances, etc. when defending against a bearhug. Considering we're not upright, but instead bent over, what foot position would you suggest to deal with the possible resistance? I'm thinking a forward bow may still work from here.

I'll hazzard a guess here but I'm with you on the forward-bow - or at least a stance with the hips aligned forwards. I'll also take another chance and say that the right foot is placed in front of the left (i.e. a right-forward-stance). Also assume for the moment that the mechanisms for surviving the assult that are at least, if not more complex than the technique described up until this point

When the lock/strangle is applied you have four appendages (plus your head) which can be used to align yourself and misalign the attacker. So I'll guess that the direction your head is turned (i.e. which shoulder your chin is placed to) is paramount to obtaining a stable stance.

I'll go further and guess that your right-hand could be used to grip the attacker's own arm and try to ease off the choke. And your left hand could perhaps BAM somewhere on your body prior to moving to the checking position on the attacker's leg. Or the other way round (left/right) Maybe a BAM to one of your hips as you also PAM / position your feet??

Once you've attained a stable stance and survived the assault (i.e. the attacker must now change/reset in order to control you any further), the 'technique' that's been described so far can start from this point.

I'm stuck on this, will wait for further instruction

 

[Doc]

I'm with you on the forward-bow - or at least a stance with the hips aligned forwards.

I was under the impression that if you were 'bent over' forward, a 'forward bow' would not be possible? Forward bows are not an option nor are they structurally sound anywhere in the execution of this technique because the activity is 'under load.' The forward bow is not designed for structural integrity under a sustained load.

So I'll guess that the direction your head is turned (i.e. which shoulder your chin is placed to) is paramount to obtaining a stable stance.

It is a start.

I'll go further and guess that your right-hand could be used to grip the attacker's own arm and try to ease off the choke.

impossible. Consider your posture, and the attcker is 'locking' with one arm and 'bracing' his lock with the other.

I'm stuck on this, will wait for further instruction

Good idea. You have an advantage because of your excellent instruction so you understand some of the SL-4 Concepts, but even so the written word will not suffice in describing significany Body Align/Misalign Mechanisms. This one is a toughy and especially with someone who knows how to apply the lock. Unfortunately, this is one of those techniques where you are forced to presume the attacker knows what he is doing, and not just 'grabbing' you by the head.

 

[JamesB]

The forward bow is not designed for structural integrity under a sustained load.

Interesting, I'll add this to my list of things I need to get straightened out

....impossible. Consider your posture, and the attcker is 'locking' with one arm and 'bracing' his lock with the other.

you mean the attacker is going to be way too strong in his 'brace' for one to manipulate his arms directly or otherwise ease off the choke, right?

Good idea. You have an advantage because of your excellent instruction so you understand some of the SL-4 Concepts, but even so the written word will not suffice in describing significany Body Align/Misalign Mechanisms. This one is a toughy and especially with someone who knows how to apply the lock. Unfortunately, this is one of those techniques where you are forced to presume the attacker knows what he is doing, and not just 'grabbing' you by the head.

thanks for your time on this Doc. The one thing I'm learning more and more is how hard it is to have these discussions 'on paper', no matter how honest the intent is.

 

[AvPKenpo]

1) With feet in line with each other and body bent forward, step forward with your right foot towards 11 o'clock and deliver a right upward vertical reverse handsword to opponents groin while simultaneously having your left hand check opponents right thigh just above the knee and your chin turned, so as to keep your breathing constant.

Think also of the possibilities of the attacker. What are the trying to do? One is possible that they are going to choke you with an inner wrist choke or a guillotine choke. other possibilities are that they are going to knee you, or roll you (which involves the attacker falling backward with the individual in the head lock throwing them over their shoulder and landing in mount position while maintaining the lock - very dangerous.) You may find that the first strike you speak of may not work very well if the attacker has very thick thighs, you may be better off using a inverted horizontal thrust punch to the groin. Also making sure that you check at either the knee or hip. ( I find that if you check at the hip hard (almost pushing them back) that the attacker can not get the choke on effectively and also can not throw effectively because you have to have your hips forward to do both well.) Do not forget to turn the head at the beginning this will help with opening an airway because they are trying to collapse your trachea. There are a ton of reversals that can also be done with this technique as well but they veer more toward ground fighting and not getting out of the situation in a Kenpo Logical fashion.

2) Immediately follow up with a right vertical obscure elbow strike to opponents jaw while keeping in a low right neutral bow.
3) After snapping the elbow to opponents jaw, loop your right elbow and strike again, shuffling forward if needed, to the left side of opponents jaw as your left palm heel strike hits to the right side causing a sandwiching effect.

Though you did not state it always maintain your position checks and look for the possibilities of point referencing, and white zone awareness.
From a Warrior to Scholars.
Michael

 

[Doc]

you mean the attacker is going to be way too strong in his 'brace' for one to manipulate his arms directly or otherwise ease off the choke, right?

From your posture, and from your attacker's posture, it will be impossible for you to derive any relief from the lock/strangle with only one arm or even two if it's available.

 

[Doc]

Doc, I know there have been discussions regarding proper footwork, stances, etc. when defending against a bearhug. Considering we're not upright, but instead bent over, what foot position would you suggest to deal with the possible resistance? I'm thinking a forward bow may still work from here.

Mike

No sir, a forward bow would be impossible to achieve under load. Consider a structurally modified 'wide kneel' with proper Indexes and braced postures to Survive the Initial Assault.

 

[Doc]

With feet in line with each other and body bent forward, step forward with your right foot towards 11 o'clock .....

Not possible sir under load.

 

[Doc]

Consider gentlemen the physical dynamics and structure of the body changes significantly from "bending over," to being "bent over," to "being forced to bend over."

 

[HKphooey]

Best thing to do (especially with headlocks) is try all your suggestions on multiple training partners (different sizes and shapes). Posting on the forum is great place to get ideas/modifications to your training. But I would not be too quick to disgard/keep any options/suggestions before you try them on another person. Some things look wonderful and technical in writing, but on the mat things change. Certain things that work for you may not work for another (and remember the inverse is also true - things that do not work for one, may work for another).

 

[MJS]

I was under the impression that if you were 'bent over' forward, a 'forward bow' would not be possible? Forward bows are not an option nor are they structurally sound anywhere in the execution of this technique because the activity is 'under load.' The forward bow is not designed for structural integrity under a sustained load.

What would you suggest for footwork? Considering there's going to be movement on the attackers part, I'd think that you'd want to try to stablize yourself.

**edit** disregard this Doc. I posted this before I saw your reply a little further down.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Think also of the possibilities of the attacker. What are the trying to do? One is possible that they are going to choke you with an inner wrist choke or a guillotine choke. other possibilities are that they are going to knee you, or roll you (which involves the attacker falling backward with the individual in the head lock throwing them over their shoulder and landing in mount position while maintaining the lock - very dangerous.) You may find that the first strike you speak of may not work very well if the attacker has very thick thighs, you may be better off using a inverted horizontal thrust punch to the groin. Also making sure that you check at either the knee or hip. ( I find that if you check at the hip hard (almost pushing them back) that the attacker can not get the choke on effectively and also can not throw effectively because you have to have your hips forward to do both well.) Do not forget to turn the head at the beginning this will help with opening an airway because they are trying to collapse your trachea. There are a ton of reversals that can also be done with this technique as well but they veer more toward ground fighting and not getting out of the situation in a Kenpo Logical fashion.

Though you did not state it always maintain your position checks and look for the possibilities of point referencing, and white zone awareness.
From a Warrior to Scholars.
Michael

Thanks for your reply! You've brought up some great points! This is my intention when I start these discussions...to put the 'written' technique down, and open the discussion up, talking about variations people have, the 'what if' phase of the techniques, etc.

While I agree that its hard at times to get the mental picture of what someone is trying to say online, we should still be able to discuss things that I've mentioned above. :ultracool

Mike

 

[Ray]

1) With feet in line with each other and body bent forward, step forward with your right foot towards 11 o'clock and deliver a right upward vertical reverse handsword to opponents groin while simultaneously having your left hand check opponents right thigh just above the knee and your chin turned, so as to keep your breathing constant.

Locking Horns used to be one of my least favorite techniques. But then I visited a school in Colorado where they didn't just check the attacker's right leg above then knee with the left hand---IF you can, then blast {at or above} the knee (instead of check it) as you step, then you can lock the knee joint and send the attacker backwards towards 12:00. There were a couple other minor varations to what I had learned (and I learned it pretty much like MJS's description) but I don't recall them. I think they were affiliated with Mr. Pick's organization.

Now, for me, it's not such a gosh awful technique.

 

[AvPKenpo]

Thanks for your reply! You've brought up some great points! This is my intention when I start these discussions...to put the 'written' technique down, and open the discussion up, talking about variations people have, the 'what if' phase of the techniques, etc.

Mike

NP. I would also like to hear of any other possible escapes, reversals that do not end in taking someone to the ground, in a ground and pound situation. Of course with all of us being Kenpo guys and gals what are we doing in that position in the first place Has anyone out there had the experience of having this type of lock/choke put on them in a real-life (non dojo) situation? And if you have what was your experience with escaping.
The most important thing in this whole technique (IMHO) is that we check the leg/hip and punch(or inverted handsword strike) to the groin and if they don't let go rinse and repeat.
From a Warrior to Scholars
Michael

 

[AvPKenpo]

No sir, a forward bow would be impossible to achieve under load. Consider a structurally modified 'wide kneel' with proper Indexes and braced postures to Survive the Initial Assault.

You are right a forward bow would be impossible but a lowered forward bow (close kneel stance) would be the appropriate stance. Establishing a base is very important, you are not going to be in a picture perfect stance as the technique is executed because in all stances we are told to keep our back straight. In this paticular technique we are bent at the waist so any stance that we go into is only to stabilize. So I guess this would be a close kneel only from the waist down.
When pure fist meets pure face it is pure Kenpo.
From a Warrior to Scholars
Michael