Living The Martial Way

Tez3

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Its about taking full responsibility for your own actions, not praying for forgiveness. There is no heaven and hell in M.A.

This is how Judaism is, we don't do things in the name of God but to become better people, Ethics and the Law are more important parts of the belief than worshipping or spirituality. The idea is that we grow as people to be responsible adults not to be constantly children looking to be led all the time.
Christianity may have come from a small part of Judaism but there is very little in common, we have different thoughts, different practices, different writings and very different ways of expressing our beliefs. Judaism isn't Christianity without Jesus, the divergence is far bigger than that.

I don't think the lack of tolerance is on my side by the way, I don't believe my faith is the right one for everybody, we believe in free will and everyone being responsible for themselves. Whatever relationship they want to have with any or no deity is entirely their business and their choices should be respected as being every bit as valid as everyone elses.
 

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I vaguely remember a situation like that some years ago. I guess some people need to study Japanese customs. Bowing in Japan is like shaking hands. You will never be able to bow as deeply as an old lady who in her frailty venerates her fellow man to help her in everything.
Yes, this. Unortunately, in the Bible Belt (Southern US, for those outside the country) it is fairly common for folks to see things as anti-Christian simply because they don't understand them, are afraid of them, or don't like them.
 

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This is how Judaism is, we don't do things in the name of God but to become better people, Ethics and the Law are more important parts of the belief than worshipping or spirituality. The idea is that we grow as people to be responsible adults not to be constantly children looking to be led all the time.
Christianity may have come from a small part of Judaism but there is very little in common, we have different thoughts, different practices, different writings and very different ways of expressing our beliefs. Judaism isn't Christianity without Jesus, the divergence is far bigger than that.

I don't think the lack of tolerance is on my side by the way, I don't believe my faith is the right one for everybody, we believe in free will and everyone being responsible for themselves. Whatever relationship they want to have with any or no deity is entirely their business and their choices should be respected as being every bit as valid as everyone elses.
Posts like this make me all the more confused by the Messianic Jews. How do you combine those two things, at all?
 

Tez3

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Posts like this make me all the more confused by the Messianic Jews. How do you combine those two things, at all?

The 'Messianic Jews' are Christians not in the least Jewish, they are completely and utterly different, they are also borderline stalkers being keen to convert Jews. They can call themselves what they like but will never be Jewish nor do they believe as we do, it's a con quite frankly. Their doctrines are Jewish, their thoughts aren't, the way they look at the Law isn't, nothing is. Much of what they believe is diametrically opposed to what we believe in.
 
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Zero tolerance of what, precisely? So far, Tez has only put forth some explanations of her views, and an attempt to distinguish Judaism from Christianity (which I see as divergences from the same root, whatever that means).

If you have no tolerance for others mentioning their religion, then it would be best not to step into a discussion where they are in play. If you have no tolerance for people defending their views, perhaps you could express your own with some moderation.

I'm entirely areligious, so I'm not bothered by your attitude on religion. Not my fight. But you stepped into a discussion in a fairly un-civil manner.
No thank you, I have zero tolerance in debating religion. I let Tez know that I had no desire to debate religious views and she wished to continue anyway, you are right about stepping into it and from this point forward, I will not make that mistake again.
 

Gerry Seymour

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No thank you, I have zero tolerance in debating religion. I let Tez know that I had no desire to debate religious views and she wished to continue anyway, you are right about stepping into it and from this point forward, I will not make that mistake again.
Actually, you stepped in, said some fairly negative things about religion, then claimed not to want to get into a debate. That's pretty passive-aggressive.

But I don't want to get into a discussion of your behavior.
 
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Actually, you stepped in, said some fairly negative things about religion, then claimed not to want to get into a debate. That's pretty passive-aggressive.

But I don't want to get into a discussion of your behavior.
Excellent, so as far as this conversation goes(at least with me). Its over.
 
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Christianity may have come from a small part of Judaism but there is very little in common, we have different thoughts, different practices, different writings and very different ways of expressing our beliefs. Judaism isn't Christianity without Jesus, the divergence is far bigger than that.
That I will have to agree with.
 

Tez3

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No thank you, I have zero tolerance in debating religion. I let Tez know that I had no desire to debate religious views and she wished to continue anyway, you are right about stepping into it and from this point forward, I will not make that mistake again.

Do you think you are the only poster on here then or that the OP wouldn't want answers to his questions? To debate anything one has to know what one is talking about, as it was clear you didn't there was little point in debating with you.
 
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This is how human behaviour is looked upon in Judaism, it's down to you. There is the Law, whether you follow it is up to you as free will is given, how you behave is up to you. There is little 'worship' in Judaism, it's about how you behave so that has implications in everything you do. In martial arts it could be something like sharing a drink with someone who forgot to bring one, helping a beginner with something, being respectful towards people and the fixtures and fittings in the dojo, replacing the toilet the roll so the person after you has some :), very small simple things that inform our lives so that we act in a way that benefits others rather than spiteful things which detract from you as a person.
So what you're saying I believe is that your religion influences everything you do in life including your training in the martial arts and stuff you might do in your training such as sharing a drink with somebody or helping out a beginner and so forth. Is that right?
 

Tez3

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So what you're saying I believe is that your religion influences everything you do in life including your training in the martial arts and stuff you might do in your training such as sharing a drink with somebody or helping out a beginner and so forth. Is that right?

My religion, no. I chose to abide by the Law so that I consider everything I do. Judaism 101: Halakhah: Jewish Law

"Judaism is not just a set of beliefs about G-d, man and the universe. Judaism is a comprehensive way of life, filled with rules and practices that affect every aspect of life: what you do when you wake up in the morning, what you can and cannot eat, what you can and cannot wear, how to groom yourself, how to conduct business, who you can marry, how to observe the holidays and Shabbat, and perhaps most important, how to treat G-d, other people, and animals. This set of rules and practices is known as halakhah."
 

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I have attended services in a Synagogue, a Catholic Church, a Buddhist Temple, Episcopal, Pentecostal, Protestant, Presbyterian, Lutheran and a few others. No Mosques, as there weren't any to my knowledge in Boston when I was a kid.

What I concluded, my opinion mind you, was everyone was worshipping the same deity, just in different ways.

It so reminds me of the Martial Arts.
 

Tez3

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I have attended services in a Synagogue, a Catholic Church, a Buddhist Temple, Episcopal, Pentecostal, Protestant, Presbyterian, Lutheran and a few others. No Mosques, as there weren't any to my knowledge in Boston when I was a kid.

What I concluded, my opinion mind you, was everyone was worshipping the same deity, just in different ways.

It so reminds me of the Martial Arts.

We don't 'worship' though, we have a contract with our deity, a covenant, much more of an equal partnership.
 
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My religion, no. I chose to abide by the Law so that I consider everything I do. Judaism 101: Halakhah: Jewish Law

"Judaism is not just a set of beliefs about G-d, man and the universe. Judaism is a comprehensive way of life, filled with rules and practices that affect every aspect of life: what you do when you wake up in the morning, what you can and cannot eat, what you can and cannot wear, how to groom yourself, how to conduct business, who you can marry, how to observe the holidays and Shabbat, and perhaps most important, how to treat G-d, other people, and animals. This set of rules and practices is known as halakhah."

I see. Well I never said that you can't abide by the Law when you're training in martial arts and that's not what Morgan ever implies. What Morgan points out is that some people think that by taking up martial arts that you're getting involved in some sort of religion. Lots of people think that by training in martial arts you might be practicing eastern religion and some people are intimidated by that and are therefore reluctant to start martial arts training. Especially some of the rituals done in the martial arts such as bowing is associated with religion. Morgan makes the distinction that martial arts and religion are two different things.
 

Tez3

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I see. Well I never said that you can't abide by the Law when you're training in martial arts and that's not what Morgan ever implies. What Morgan points out is that some people think that by taking up martial arts that you're getting involved in some sort of religion. Lots of people think that by training in martial arts you might be practicing eastern religion and some people are intimidated by that and are therefore reluctant to start martial arts training. Especially some of the rituals done in the martial arts such as bowing is associated with religion. Morgan makes the distinction that martial arts and religion are two different things.


I don't think you get what any of us actually mean.


I didn't think people are intimidated by training in a martial art because they think it's a religion because the only ones who are against anything like that are a subset of Christians who are against anything they say isn't right including Judaism btw. Bowing isn't a ritual, it is a polite gesture still used by far more people than in martial arts of the East.
In Scottish and English country dancing there are bows from the men curtseys from the women, none of which has anything to do with religion. We bow when a funeral passes, we bow to the lowering of flags and Colours, we bow when laying wreaths. In fact in everyday life bowing is actually fairly common.
 

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I don't think you get what any of us actually mean.


I didn't think people are intimidated by training in a martial art because they think it's a religion because the only ones who are against anything like that are a subset of Christians who are against anything they say isn't right including Judaism btw. Bowing isn't a ritual, it is a polite gesture still used by far more people than in martial arts of the East.
In Scottish and English country dancing there are bows from the men curtseys from the women, none of which has anything to do with religion. We bow when a funeral passes, we bow to the lowering of flags and Colours, we bow when laying wreaths. In fact in everyday life bowing is actually fairly common.
What some schools do in their opening bow, IMO, rises to the definition of "ritual". That's neither good nor bad, but I think the word fits when the sequence is something like:
  1. Students bow as instructor moves to front of room.
  2. Students facing head instructor, bow to each other.
  3. Instructor and students turn to face kamiza, bow to kamiza.
  4. Head instructor faces associate instructors, bow to each other.
It somehow feels decidedly Catholic to me.:D
 

Tez3

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I've been watching the Olympic Judo, been brilliant so far with more to come in a couple of hours. Now, obviously with Judo being Japanese there's bowing but with so many nationalities and langauges involved bowing is such a good way of being polite and showing you understand etc.
 

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What some schools do in their opening bow, IMO, rises to the definition of "ritual". That's neither good nor bad, but I think the word fits when the sequence is something like:
  1. Students bow as instructor moves to front of room.
  2. Students facing head instructor, bow to each other.
  3. Instructor and students turn to face kamiza, bow to kamiza.
  4. Head instructor faces associate instructors, bow to each other.
It somehow feels decidedly Catholic to me.:D

Look at it like shaking hands but its just that they do it more often. It's about respect. I happen to know and was taught by the present headmaster of Ogasawara reiho. It was the Ogasawara ryu that introduced it methods in the Kamakura period in the late 1200's My founder lived to serve and his son was a retainer of the Lord Ogasawara. So we find it befitting to do the etiquette that was practiced at the time of my founder for continuity. Needless to say its rather more complicated than just bowing. I can assure you the family did not invent the system with religious intent.

Part of my job for many years was teaching Japanese etiquette to Japanese people in education. Few young people know anything about it and dont have the capability of sitting in seiza for more than a few minutes. It just that the ettiquette got mixed in with religion like everything else.

My founder said believe in god/the gods but dont rely on them. If you can fit all of or part of your religion to go alongside your MA ? All well and good. But the death concept? That's something else as we dont fight to the death any more. And this is the the reason people that fought to the death identified with a concept that would go hand in hand with their life/death.
 

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Look at it like shaking hands but its just that they do it more often. It's about respect. I happen to know and was taught by the present headmaster of Ogasawara reiho. It was the Ogasawara ryu that introduced it methods in the Kamakura period in the late 1200's My founder lived to serve and his son was a retainer of the Lord Ogasawara. So we find it befitting to do the etiquette that was practiced at the time of my founder for continuity. Needless to say its rather more complicated than just bowing. I can assure you the family did not invent the system with religious intent.

Part of my job for many years was teaching Japanese etiquette to Japanese people in education. Few young people know anything about it and dont have the capability of sitting in seiza for more than a few minutes. It just that the ettiquette got mixed in with religion like everything else.

My founder said believe in god/the gods but dont rely on them. If you can fit all of or part of your religion to go alongside your MA ? All well and good. But the death concept? That's something else as we dont fight to the death any more. And this is the the reason people that fought to the death identified with a concept that would go hand in hand with their life/death.

My point was simply that if you take anything - even shaking hands - and make it too structured, it becomes a ritual. Many older fraternities have complicated challenge handshake rituals designed to identify members of the fraternity. They often get complex enough to be called "challenge rituals".
 
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PhotonGuy

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Bowing isn't a ritual, it is a polite gesture still used by far more people than in martial arts of the East.
I am aware of the purpose of bowing in the martial arts. As you said, its a polite gesture nothing more. Bowing is more or less much like a handshake in how it is used. But, there are people who do think its a religious ritual. There are people who think that just about anything foreign or of another culture is religious. I know of a case of an instructor who used to require students to know the Japanese words for the techniques but he stopped doing that because some of the parents of the children who he was teaching were getting concerned in that they thought he was teaching a religion when in fact he wasn't, he was teaching a sport that was from a different culture but since the parents were getting concerned and thought it had religious overtones since he was requiring students to know the Japanese words for the techniques he stopped requiring that.
 

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