Linear and Circular Techniques

[vincehardy3]

Question: What type of footwork is incorporated into Wing Chun--is it linear, circular, or both? Also, are their circular hand techniques somewhat like the techniques of BaGua? Lastly, are grappling/chin-na and throwing techniques incorporated in chi-sao training? I've seen chi-sao done before and while the practitioners were training they just burst into a flurry of chain punches. I could see where grappling could be employed with chi-sao sense it is a sensitivity exercise somewhat like Tai Chi's push-hands. Could someone please educate me? Thank you.


CH (1LT) V. Hardy

 

[Tensei85]

Just a few points to make either Mook or Geezer will have awesome ideas to add. So I'll make it brief.

In Wing Chun that I studied we utilized both Circular & Linear footwork.

Hyun Ma- was a circular footwork, not the same as Bagua's Jao Bou or Circle walking.

Biu Ma, Bik Ma, Ding Ma, etc... were all linear footworks.

Hyun Ma is also seen in the opening of the Biu Ji form similar in some appearances to the Hung Gar or Southern Shaolin forms that utilize the circle step opening in their salutation.

As far as Sau Faat we use Hyun Sau, or a Gan Sau upper/lower which are semi-circular in appearance.

Chi Sau- is similar to tui shou. We utilize structure, concepts, energetics and sensitivity are all key elements for chi sau practice.

But to note Chi Sau is not just common to only Wing Chun but most CMA's have some form or conception of Chi Sau.

Hope some of this helps,

 

[zepedawingchun]

Question: . . . . Lastly, are grappling/chin-na and throwing techniques incorporated in chi-sao training? I've seen chi-sao done before and while the practitioners were training they just burst into a flurry of chain punches. I could see where grappling could be employed with chi-sao CH (1LT) V. Hardy

Yes, chin na and grappling can be employed (and developed) while performing chi sao. I teach my students to use them (if they so desire) in chi sao. Chi sao is a sensitivity training drill which allows you to feel whatever the attack may develop into, be it stand up striking, attempting to be taken to the ground, or getting thrown, and handle the situation. Why not?

 

[geezer]

Question: What type of footwork is incorporated into Wing Chun--is it linear, circular, or both? Also, are their circular hand techniques somewhat like the techniques of BaGua? Lastly, are grappling/chin-na and throwing techniques incorporated in chi-sao training? I've seen chi-sao done before and while the practitioners were training they just burst into a flurry of chain punches. I could see where grappling could be employed with chi-sao sense it is a sensitivity exercise somewhat like Tai Chi's push-hands. Could someone please educate me? Thank you.CH (1LT) V. Hardy

Hmmmm. Wing Chun/Wing Tsun is a lot of different things to different people. I'd say look around, visit schools, meet people. You'll see that there is a surprising amount of breadth and complexity to this supposedly "bare bones" system. Nevertheless, I'll hazard a few generalizations...

WC/WT favors simplicity and economy of motion. That usually translates as a preference for linear techniques, as "a line is the shortest distance between two points". But, if something gets in the way, you have to go around it. So we do have the "circle-steps" (huen-bo) and "circling-hand" (huen-sau) movements that Tensei mentioned. Also hook punches.

You know, it's kinda like the whole yin-yang thing. If you have straight lines, you also have to have circles... it's just that in WC/WT we strive for that economy of motion, so we only use circles when necessary, and keep them as small as possible. Sometimes the circles get so small that they are no more than a point of rotation. And, if I remember my high school geometry correctly, a point is not only the center of a circle, it is also a section of a line.

 

[Tensei85]

Hmmmm. Wing Chun/Wing Tsun is a lot of different things to different people. I'd say look around, visit schools, meet people. You'll see that there is a surprising amount of breadth and complexity to this supposedly "bare bones" system. Nevertheless, I'll hazard a few generalizations...

WC/WT favors simplicity and economy of motion. That usually translates as a preference for linear techniques, as "a line is the shortest distance between two points". But, if something gets in the way, you have to go around it. So we do have the "circle-steps" (huen-bo) and "circling-hand" (huen-sau) movements that Tensei mentioned. Also hook punches.

You know, it's kinda like the whole yin-yang thing. If you have straight lines, you also have to have circles... it's just that in WC/WT we strive for that economy of motion, so we only use circles when necessary, and keep them as small as possible. Sometimes the circles get so small that they are no more than a point of rotation. And, if I remember my high school geometry correctly, a point is not only the center of a circle, it is also a section of a line.

Actually very good point:

In Wing Chun and other CMA's that I've studied we used the training methodology that if the opponent uses a straight line attack we go around him and if he uses a circular attack we go straight through him. (Center Line)

This is seen quite prevalent in the "jip sau-jao sau" training platform in Luk sau.

Just wanted to add

 

[mook jong man]

Can't disagree with anything that anyone has said.
You can certainly experiment with grappling in Chi Sau , one of my friends was an ex Hapkido guy turned Wing Chun and he was always trying to put me in arm locks from Chi Sau , usually it earned him a kick in the shins.

I've also used a particular arm drag takedown from Dos Pares , and also put people in arm locks , figure four etc. The thing to remember is that they are best applied when you have pivoted the opponent off to the side and you are on his blindside so that you have control of his nearside arm and his other arm is way out of range , slap it on real quick and be prepared to jam a low kick from his close leg as you put the pain on.

Don't even think about trying to apply them when you are both square on because while you are busy trying to set up the particular wrist lock or arm lock to immobilise his arm your eating 15 punches in the face or getting the crap kicked out of your legs.

With chokes and throws I've found that I can pierce through up past the neck with the Tan Sau and put people in a head/arm strangle then take down with a circle step sweep from Bil Jee and then into the knee ride position or full mount .
Or even go from Bong Sau into a headlock and sweep or throw etc.

So all the tools are already in there for you to penetrate their defences and get into grappling range , particularly using the Tan Sau and also the Bong Sau. Its just how far you want to take it.

The problem is that you can only make them work when someone is worse at Chi Sau than you , when they work they are great , but when they don't the penalty is too great.

If you try it on someone with greater skill in Chi Sau than you what happens is you either get pivoted off to the side and peppered with punches on your blind side , or you walk into an elbow or a punch , or end up getting trapped.

Trying it on a dude thats at a high level in Chi Sau is suicide , you can't get any purchase on his arms its like trying to grab smoke or water , you try to push his arm somewhere and his arm then becomes a trap or a strike.

I pretty much know as soon as I start doing Chi Sau with someone whether I can apply grappling concepts on them , usually they are using a lot of force and are very tense which means I have a fair chance of being able to parry their arm aside without eating an elbow in the face whilst getting body to body.

You have to have a pretty good idea that you can pull it off , there is a time and a place , you have to be able to gauge when that time and place is.

Another thing to remember is once you start to get into the realm of adding grappling to Wing Chun then you are starting to disobey one of the principles of Wing Chun which is the minimum use of brute strength.

Also the Wing Chun way of controlling and striking , using up to 3 limbs simultaneously to overwhelm the opponent as well as the projection of force from the stance to unbalance the opponent sort of makes grappling redundant .

Wing Chun is purely an aggressive self defence art , knock em down , drag em out , get the job done quick. The problem is with Wing Chun there is no setting your Phasers to stun.

Which is why I added grappling to my Wing Chun for those situations where it may not be appropriate for me to use pure Wing Chun and batter someones face in or maim them so that they will never walk properly again , you know like the drunken brother in law syndrome etc.

We have to have some way of handling these situations with compassion when a low level of aggression calls for a low level response such as a takedown , submission , or simply pinning them to the ground while we wait for them to calm down or for the police to arrive.

I trained with a Pancrase guy for a year in ground fighting and there is an element of strength involved , I know the grappling afficionados will say that they use leverage because that is true , but they don't use it in exactly the same way or to the extent that Wing Chun people do.

But if you can pierce through with your Tan Sau or Bong Sau then there is certainly scope to turn that striking opportunity into a grappling opportunity in the right circumstances. Which is why all Wing Chun people should really work on protecting their neck , I can't emphasise that enough.

If it looks like the opponents Tan Sau is getting up near your neck Pak sau that bugger away on the inside of his arm and simultaneously return fire to the low line with your other hand , I usually use a low horizontal palm strike to their ribcage.

Stay in contact with his Tan Sau or what ever is trying to capture your neck , convert your Pak and Lop sau his arm down and then punch over the top with your hand that was previously down low doing the palm strike. It really is a last ditch defence when the Tan sau is almost at your neck , you don't know whether its going to be a strike , a neck surround or even both .

What you really want to be able to do is to detect it at an earlier stage and take a small step back with one leg , as you simultaneously drop your Fook sau down on his Tan sau ( this latches him down , ruins his structure) whilst at the same time piercing forward with your own Tan sau , thus taking advantage of his compromised structure . Note. (step back on the same side as your Fook Sau )

So in essence the counter is pretty much the mirror image of the attack , except you are taking a small step back , dropping your Fook Sau down a tad and pulling him in to your own Tan sau pierce to his neck .

 

[CuongNhuka]

Vince, what part of Nebraska are you from? Depending on where you are I could recommend some schools for you to go to, and some to avoid.

Anywho...

I've posted a few times before that my school does Chi Sao, and alot of the time we do end up doing wrist locks, etc. However, everytime I say that, I'm highly critized because 'thats not what you're suppossed to do'. So, some Wing Chun school will encourage the development of Chin Na/grappling, and some will discourage it, and many many more simply wont care either way. Just to warn you.

 

[vincehardy3]

I live in Omaha, NE for the time being. I would appreciate your help. I am planning on heading to K.C. when I return from duty at Ft Jackson to train with Sifu Randy K. Li. I've visited with the Moy Yat Wing Chun people a few years ago, and I understand that a new instructor from Sifu Li's side of the house is in Bellevue, NE. I would greatly appreciate your assistance.