Lineage vs Testing

Kung Fu Wang

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And it's been going on for many decades now at the very least.
Agree with you 100% there.

To go to the

- college, you will need to take the SAT test.
- gradulate school, you will need to take the GRE test.

Without testing (ranking), how can you separate good students from bad students?
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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@Yanli honest question for you-is english your primary language? If not, what is?

I don't think your english is bad at all (either as a native or non-native speaker), but some of the arguments that you get into seem like they could just be translation issues-in the wushu thread could be a difference in understanding the term wushu, and in this thread, leaving out a possessive word in front of/after wing chun causing confusion.
 

Yanli

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Lol, that can be argued in so many manners, but it is all dependent on what level at which testing is needed. If you are by normal standards below black belt, the teacher test or see's what you need work at, at say a black belt level, the teacher tells you what is needed to progress further. If a new student comes into your school, you will test them, no matter what belt they hold. How do you tell a good mechanic from a bad mechanic, do you go by what degree's he or she has, or by how well they perform. I have dealt with mechanics that have degree's and been in business for a very long time, but they have screwed up my car lol. I have had students that had belts from their school, but could not fight worth anything. Granted, the student obviously went to a school that just passed out belts, but if the student would of spent his time observing his growth and lack of, he would of been a better fighter.
 

Yanli

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@Yanli honest question for you-is english your primary language? If not, what is?

I don't think your english is bad at all (either as a native or non-native speaker), but some of the arguments that you get into seem like they could just be translation issues-in the wushu thread could be a difference in understanding the term wushu, and in this thread, leaving out a possessive word in front of/after wing chun causing confusion.
Where exactly in my statement do I need to clarify?
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Where exactly in my statement do I need to clarify?
This one started because you stated "Wing chun does not use the belt system", when it should be been "my wing chun does not use the belt system", "the wing chun that I practice does not use the belt system", or "I have not used belts in Wing Chun". A lot of my spanish family would say it like you did, which is why I was wondering if it was a language issue.
 

Xue Sheng

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I know of 3 Wing Chun schools in my area, one used a belt system, but abandon it, the other never used a belt system and the 3rd I really doubt he uses a belt system. However a belt system is becoming more and more prevalent in CMA these days... but many use a sash instead of a belt...same idea, just different material
 

Flying Crane

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Agree with you 100% there.

To go to the

- college, you will need to take the SAT test.
- gradulate school, you will need to take the GRE test.

Without testing (ranking), how can you separate good students from bad students?
You need a colored belt to know which of your students are good and which are not so good?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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You need a colored belt to know which of your students are good and which are not so good?
In ACSCA, when a student tests his BB, he will need to send his testing video to all ACSCA board of members. With at least 3 out of 4 votes, that person can then obtaine his BB. His BB certificate will have 3 signatures on it. It's a good quality control policy IMO.

It's not whether I think my student is good or bad. It's the ACSCA thinks my student is good or bad.
 
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Flying Crane

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In ACSCA, when a student tests his BB, he will need to send his testing video to all ACSCA board of members. With at least 3 out of 4 votes, that person can then obtaine his BB. His BB certificate will have 3 signatures on it. It's a good quality control policy IMO.

It's not whether I think my student is good or bad. It's the ACSCA thinks a student is good or bad.
Ok, if you want to belong to a larger organization then you have to follow their rules. But in no way does that prevent you from knowing which of your students are good and which are still working on getting there, without having to run them through a test first.

Lots of schools are independent and set their own standards. While many of them choose to utilize a belt/ranking method, it is certainly not a necessity. A good teacher ought to have enough connection and regular interaction with his/her students to know on any given day where their skills are.

How do I know which students are good, without a test or rank? Easy: I work with them on a regular basis.
 

Yanli

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This one started because you stated "Wing chun does not use the belt system", when it should be been "my wing chun does not use the belt system", "the wing chun that I practice does not use the belt system", or "I have not used belts in Wing Chun". A lot of my spanish family would say it like you did, which is why I was wondering if it was a language issue.
Ok, I stand corrected lol, I have made a habit in my teaching and in my business that I had in computers to speak in general, anything more then that threw people off lol. I also was not aware that some WC schools use the belt system. I practice and teach the old way I learned, with slight differences. I do not bother keeping up-to-date on new changes in WC or other forms, I have not had or found a need to, but you have pointed out in these discussions a degree of need to know lol.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Ok, I stand corrected lol, I have made a habit in my teaching and in my business that I had in computers to speak in general, anything more then that threw people off lol. I also was not aware that some WC schools use the belt system. I practice and teach the old way I learned, with slight differences. I do not bother keeping up-to-date on new changes in WC or other forms, I have not had or found a need to, but you have pointed out in these discussions a degree of need to know lol.
I don't think there's even a need to know. Share your own experiences, that's all well and good. Just important to notice when you're making a claim for your experience vs. the art as a whole.
 

Yanli

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Ok, if you want to belong to a larger organization then you have to follow their rules. But in no way does that prevent you from knowing which of your students are good and which are still working on getting there, without having to run them through a test first.

Lots of schools are independent and set their own standards. While many of them choose to utilize a belt/ranking method, it is certainly not a necessity. A good teacher ought to have enough connection and regular interaction with his/her students to know on any given day where their skills are.

How do I know which students are good, without a test or rank? Easy: I work with them on a regular basis.
I would hope that all schools work or test each student, but I can see how the much larger schools would have difficulty in that, so I can see a need for belt ranking. I teach only selected or chosen students, the most I work with at one time is 3 to 4 students at a time, this way I can give each student the needed guidance. This also allows me to see how exactly each student needs to be taught, for not everyone learns the same way.
 

Yanli

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I don't think there's even a need to know. Share your own experiences, that's all well and good. Just important to notice when you're making a claim for your experience vs. the art as a whole.
Good point, I am new here, so I will keep that in mind.
 

Dirty Dog

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To go to the

- college, you will need to take the SAT test.
- gradulate school, you will need to take the GRE test.
Completely untrue. You CAN take those tests. And you MAY be required to take them, but neither statement is true. I have never taken the SAT (although I did take the ASVAB and ACT tests way back when). I have never taken the GRE either. Has had zero impact on college or grad school.
Without testing (ranking), how can you separate good students from bad students?
You need a belt to tell you how someone is doing? I'm from systems that use belt ranks. But I certainly don't feel like I need them to know how a student is performing.
And as far as testing goes... I test every student in every class. By observing their performance, measured against the standards we set for our curriculum.
Testing doesn't need to be a test. A non-martial arts example:
When someone wants to be certified to SCUBA dive, they start with a basic Open Water certification. There are minor variations between agencies, but generally speaking that certifies them to plan and conduct dives, with a buddy, in open water, to a maximum depth of 60 feet. Single tank. No overhead environments. No mixed gases. No mandatory decompression.
There are skills that have to be learned and demonstrated to obtain that certification. Mostly mechanical skills. If you like, you can see a list HERE. These skills are initially taught during the classroom, and then practiced in a pool or other confined water.
So some instructors will take the student down, sit them on the bottom, and go through the skills one by one.
Others (and this is my preferred approach) say "OK, let's go diving." because in large part, those skills are things you are going to do on a dive. Doing it this way is low stress, because let's face it. Test anxiety is a real thing and a real problem. This is also my preferred approach in the dojang. Every student is tested in every class. The "test" day is just a chance for them to show off in front of the other students.
 

Xue Sheng

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Completely untrue. You CAN take those tests. And you MAY be required to take them, but neither statement is true. I have never taken the SAT (although I did take the ASVAB and ACT tests way back when). I have never taken the GRE either. Has had zero impact on college or grad school.

At the moment, due to the Covid pandemic, most, if not all colleges, do not require the SAT or ACT at all for acceptance
 

Oily Dragon

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At the moment, due to the Covid pandemic, most, if not all colleges, do not require the SAT or ACT at all for acceptance
And yet, if you took one now, you'd stand out in a whole crowd of those who didn't.

"Belts" a traditionally tied (literally) to gi. Sometimes theyre extra tough because the art is mostly jacket wrasslin. Sometimes the gi is thinner.

Maybe that's why those arts put special love into their well worn belts. Wouldn't know, don't have any to speak of.
 

Xue Sheng

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And yet, if you took one now, you'd stand out in a whole crowd of those who didn't.

"Belts" a traditionally tied (literally) to gi. Sometimes theyre extra tough because the art is mostly jacket wrasslin. Sometimes the gi is thinner.

Maybe that's why those arts put special love into their well worn belts. Wouldn't know, don't have any to speak of.

No, actually you don't, they can work against you, and they are causing much larger numbers of applicants than usual so Colleges want to return to SAT/ACT, possibly as early as next year

North Eastern University that usually gets about 61,000 applicants, this year got 91,000 applicants
 

Oily Dragon

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No, actually you don't, they can work against you, and they are causing much larger numbers of applicants than usual so Colleges want to return to SAT/ACT, possibly as early as next year

North Eastern University that usually gets about 61,000 applicants, this year got 91,000 applicants
"Stand out in a crowd" can be a good or a bad thing.

So it goes with colored belts.
 

geezer

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Where exactly in my statement do I need to clarify?

Well, for starters, Monkey asked if English is your first language.

Personally, I haven't seen anything in your writing that leads me to think otherwise, although sometimes I also miss your intended point. I just attributed that to either your hurried and possibly careless writing, or my equally hurried and careless reading of said writing. No big deal either way. ;)

BTW, English is not my first language. I began speaking gibberish as a child and then progressed to speaking the American Language (which many Brits will tell you is still basically gibberish). Later in life I have developed some ability to communicate in English, although with a strong colonial accent! :p
 

Hyoho

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I know, but it got adopted as the norm, even in Japan. Traditional Chinese MA schools, for the most part, it is rare, even more so in China. Chinese system traditionally did not get into uniform either. Also wore shoes
As mentioned because Kano Jigoro, founder of the colored belt system was a director of the Ministry of Education. It's to show what achievement you have reached. I ranked up for 42 years mostly in Japan. I was always under impression that national association gradings would be based on what I knew rather than who knew. As I graded higher this simply was not the case. Hence my not wanting to grade anymore. As luck would have it this more or less coincided with me doing more classical arts with lineage and few ranks. So I favor the latter.
 
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