Legal Issues Involving Using a Knife for Self-Defence

[Jonathan Randall]

Legal Issues Involving Using a Knife for Self-Defence. In order to keep the other thread on topic, I have started this thread.

False analogy.



Driving is a daily reality for both of us. We see cars all around us. I went through a course in high school on the use of a car and the laws regarding them. I took a test on the law before they let me take the driving portion of the test. New laws are reported in the news when they happen.



None of the above can be said about knife fighting.



Maybe we need to split these posts off to its own thread because what you are saying scares the heck out of me. You say you know the law. Are you so certain that you are willing to ruin your families future over it? Did you learn from a martial arts teacher, a friend, an internet forum? Or did you learn from a fully qualified lawyer? Have you heard what a pathologist would say if he saw the after effects of those slices you advocate? Do you think that it might be best to know now before you end up being sold for cigs by some guy named Bubba?



You think I am overreacting? Talk to Peyton Quinn who was ambushed with his friend by three guys and ended up having to fight for months to stay out of prison and ended up spending tens of thousands of dollars to do so. He said it best that you have to survive the initial attack, the criminal case next and then the civil case the other side can bring against you before you can say that you 'won' a street fight.



Let me show you just how complicated things can get. I have an aquaintance who has a very real reason to be paranoid. He works for the goverment around some bad, insane people that are known for holding grudges and he is afraid of some of them looking him up later. He carries a Spyderco Civilian knife for this purpose. He talked to a lawyer familiar with cases of violence and was told that if he ever used the thing he could add about 100,000 dollars to his legal fees as a general rule. Mind you, if it came down to violence he is well known and regarded in the legal system and his attacker would have a history of crimes and insanity as well as being known to have dealt with my friend behind bars. Despite that going for him, he is still aware that if he ever has to use that nasty looking little knife, the trouble he would face getting clear would be a few years of his salary.



Now, what if you are not as clear cut or known as that in your case? What kind of legal troubles do you think you can get into?



I may have an advantage over you in interacting with law enforcement officers, prosecuters and proffesionals like that through friendship and family. But you can still get the information from a good source. There are sources out there than can help you keep your house and freedom after you have been attacked. But you are going to have to do a little research from vaild sources and maybe spend some money. Think of it as an investment for your family and their future. You owe it to them.

 

[MJS]

IMHO, I would say that it would be a very good idea to know the laws of your state as far as self defense goes, be it empty hand or with a weapon. I think that all too often, people 'jump the gun'...no pun intended...and are way too quick to use a weapon, without taking all of the consequences into consideration.

Talking to a lawyer or LEO would certainly provide you with some answers that are very important. I've never been on trial or served on a jury, but I would think that regardless of the situation, your actions are going to be looked at as well. As a Martial Artist, I'd imagine that the jury, lawyers and judge are going to be looking at your background, your skill level, time in the arts, etc., and all of this would come into play regarding what you did.

Just my .02

Mike

 

[Ross]

Excellent post Mike,

And something that really needs to be considered by all.

Also, if you are actually talking about knife fighting (ie you have a knife and they have a knife) you have a one in three chance of living.

You kill him
He kills you
You both kill each other.

 

[patroldawg27]

I cannot stress enough from a law enforcement perspective to check with local laws and regulations regarding the types of knives (folding,straight,blade length,opening method, etc. etc) before leaving the house carrying a knife intended for self defense purposes. Better safe than sorry.

 

[Cruentus]

I cannot stress enough from a law enforcement perspective to check with local laws and regulations regarding the types of knives (folding,straight,blade length,opening method, etc. etc) before leaving the house carrying a knife intended for self defense purposes. Better safe than sorry.

This is true; knives aren't regulated the same way that firearms are, as ridicules as that is. Knife laws are usually a hodgepodge of local and state legislation that is purposely kept unclear. This gives LE a "hook" so to speak so that if there is reason to believe criminal intent, they can take away your knife as a preventative measure. This among other things.

So, your best bet is that reasonableness always rules. I only carry knives I can reasonably justify carry for utility purposes, or as a "tool." I obey the law, so I don't have much to worry about. I just hope that in the off chance I get pulled over and searched (which again would be such a rare situation) that the officer is reasonable regarding my knife. Since I carry a firearm and have my CPL, I would expect that in most cases he would be and realize that my knife really is for utility and that my firearm is for defense. If he isn't reasonable, I will just be sure to get my reciept and take legal measures to get my knife back.

So, my advice is just be reasonable with what you carry, and stay out of trouble. In the off chance that you are searched, or that god forbid you have to defend yourself with your knife, hopefully you will be treated with the same reasonableness in which you behave.

Paul

 

[Rich Parsons]

IMHO, I would say that it would be a very good idea to know the laws of your state as far as self defense goes, be it empty hand or with a weapon. I think that all too often, people 'jump the gun'...no pun intended...and are way too quick to use a weapon, without taking all of the consequences into consideration.

Talking to a lawyer or LEO would certainly provide you with some answers that are very important. I've never been on trial or served on a jury, but I would think that regardless of the situation, your actions are going to be looked at as well. As a Martial Artist, I'd imagine that the jury, lawyers and judge are going to be looking at your background, your skill level, time in the arts, etc., and all of this would come into play regarding what you did.

Just my .02

Mike

Mike,

No disrespect, but in my experience, I could never get any two officers of the law to agree on a knife issue. Even if I brought a law book with me to the discussion. A lawyer is a little bit better for if you pay them they should do the research even if it comes from an intern.

I say follow up with the lawyer, look online and go to the library and search yourself for the laws. And even then so not assume you know it all for as Don has stated a new law could be in place and not published yet.

Best regards

 

[MJS]

Mike,

No disrespect, but in my experience, I could never get any two officers of the law to agree on a knife issue. Even if I brought a law book with me to the discussion. A lawyer is a little bit better for if you pay them they should do the research even if it comes from an intern.

I say follow up with the lawyer, look online and go to the library and search yourself for the laws. And even then so not assume you know it all for as Don has stated a new law could be in place and not published yet.

Best regards

Rich,

No disrespect taken. I agree, a lawyer would probably be the better choice. I guess I was just leaning towards getting some advice from someone that may be able to guide in the right direction.

Mike

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Mike,

No disrespect, but in my experience, I could never get any two officers of the law to agree on a knife issue. Even if I brought a law book with me to the discussion. A lawyer is a little bit better for if you pay them they should do the research even if it comes from an intern.

I say follow up with the lawyer, look online and go to the library and search yourself for the laws. And even then so not assume you know it all for as Don has stated a new law could be in place and not published yet.

Best regards

That's true, and I've had that experience as well. However, I did get a good idea of their attitudes and likely course of action by talking to several. A lot of how they treated you depended upon your attitude with them if the legal question were borderline or minor.

 

[Tony]

In England I know that the carrying of a knife is illegal! I am not familiar with American laws but I think it would be very dangerous for all concerned if someone was carrying a knife. You could have the knife taken off you and used against yourself meaning losing your life or you might accidentally kill someone. I realise there are Arts dedicated to knife fighting which would be very beneficial to learn, This would make us understand how to use a knife and even disarm someone with a knife.
IN this day and age it is a real concern because not everyone adheres to the rules of society and so some peopel may carry knives or even guns!

 

[JenniM]

In England I know that the carrying of a knife is illegal! I am not familiar with American laws but I think it would be very dangerous for all concerned if someone was carrying a knife. You could have the knife taken off you and used against yourself meaning losing your life or you might accidentally kill someone. I realise there are Arts dedicated to knife fighting which would be very beneficial to learn, This would make us understand how to use a knife and even disarm someone with a knife.
IN this day and age it is a real concern because not everyone adheres to the rules of society and so some peopel may carry knives or even guns!

Hi Tony, you may be interested in some of the actual laws in the UK with regard to knives which I have, thanks to Mr Roley in a previous thread!, been reviewing:-

• Section 139 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 makes it an offence for a person to have an article which has a blade or which is sharply pointed in a public place. Folding pocket knives are exempt providing the cutting edge of the blade does not exceed 3". But note that if the knife can be locked open so that it can only be closed by pressing a button is not considered a folding knife under the act.
• If you wish to carry a larger knife then you must have 'reasonable cause'. That means that you must be able to prove that you had a genuine reason for carrying the knife.
• You may carry a larger "cutting tool" if it is associated with your work (for instance a chef may carry a 9.0" butchers knife roll to and from work), or if it is associated with your sport, (for instance a fisherman may carry a 6.0" fillet knife, or a hunter may carry a 4.0" fixed blade hunting knife).
• The Prevention of Crime Act 1953 (Section 1(1)) states that:
  'Any person who without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, the proof whereof shall lie with him/her, has with him/her in a public place any offensive weapon, shall be guilty of an offence.'

Some people think that if you are a member of a Martial Arts Club then you have 'lawful authority or reasonable excuse' to possess an offensive weapon, particularly if you are training in the use of weapons. However, it is entirely down to the individual to prove that he/she has such authority or excuse and it is by no means clear that being a member of a martial art club entitles you to carry anything. If fact I think you'd have a hard job convincing a Police Officer of that over here!!

It is my understanding that you don't actually have to be carrying the weapon in question for this offence to be complete. So long as you have some close physical link with it and it is readily accessible to you that's enough. This would appear to include having it in the car with you or in your training bag.

Also, be careful about the meaning of 'public place'. You might think that because you are in a 'private' club training hall that the offence wouldn't apply. In fact a public place is any place to which the public has access, whether they are paying to enter that premises or not.

Here are some of the current legislations in the UK in relation to knives:-

The Prevention of Crime Act 1953 prohibits the carrying of any offensive weapon in a public place without lawful authority or reasonable excuse. A public place includes private premises to which the public have access. An offensive weapon is defined as any article made or adapted for use for causing injury to the person, or intended by the person for such use. Maximum penalty: six months imprisonment and/or £5000 fine.-

The Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959 prohibited the manufacture, sale, hire or offer for sale or hire, and importation of flick knives and gravity knives. Maximum penalty: six months imprisonment and/or £5000 fine.-

The Criminal Justice Act (CJA) 1988 created an offence of having an article with a blade or point in a public place without good reason or lawful excuse. An exemption applies to folding pocket knives with a blade of less than three inches. Maximum penalty: up to two years imprisonment. –
The CJA Act 1988 also created a similar offence of having a knife or article with blade on school premises. Maximum penalty: up to four years imprisonment.-

The CJA Act 1988 also prohibited the manufacture, sale, hire, offer for sale or hire of a range of weapons specified in the Criminal Justice Act (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988. These are mainly items designed to cause serious injury, for example knuckledusters, handclaws and certain martial arts equipment, or those which can be easily concealed, including swordsticks. Maximum penalty: six months imprisonment and/or £5000 fine.-

Offensive Weapons Act 1996 amended the 1988 Act to prohibit the sale of knives and certain articles with a blade or point to persons under the age of 16. Maximum penalty: six months imprisonment and/or £5000 fine.-

The Knives Act 1997 created offences relating to the unlawful marketing of knives as suitable for combat, or in ways likely to stimulate or encourage violent behaviour. It also extended the power to stop and search in anticipation of violence contained in the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994. Maximum penalty: six months imprisonment and/or £5000 fine.-

Now consider actual assault with an offensive weapon and the maximum penalties likely to be imposed - pretty scary stuff as there are many grey areas of "defence" which are unlikely to be taken into account against this type of charge.

The Government has sanctioned another "Knives Amnesty" here in the UK I think in May and June across the country as part of its continuing battle against the knife culture which appear to be all too prevalent and growing here at the moment. I went to a "Knife Show" at the weekend where many master tradesman were displaying their work however it did make me think about the people who were there buying knives who I am sure were all bona fida but you just never know!

When are we gonna get some Sun here!!!!:asian:

 

[ginshun]

This really is a tough issue, as the knife laws in most places are exeedingly vague.

I think number one, is that you had better make sure that your life in actually in danger if you are pulling a knife on somebody.

One thing to think about is the name and the look of the knife you choose to carry. Something that is not specifically made for self defence and something that has an innocuous sounding name would be my choice.

As to the original post, I think that the Spyderco Civilian is not the wisest choice. In function it is great for self defence, but terrible for anything else. It is a knife that pretty much has no utilitarian use, and is actually made with the express written purpose of slashing at people in SD. From Spyderco's websight:

Civilian G-10 ~ C12G



http://spyderco.com/catalog/closeup.php?product=60

Please Select:

Civilian SpyderEdge Black G-10
In the 1990s Spyderco was approached by a specialized branch of U.S. law enforcement about making a knife for their undercover agents. These plain-clothes LEOs found themselves in situations where they often could not carry a firearm but carrying a knife was not a problem. Most had no formal training in self-defense tactics or MBC but as a last resort could use a blade to protect or extricate themselves from a life-threatening situation. This was how the Civilian model came to be.
The Civilian has a patented reverse "S" blade that's intended to be used like an oversized claw. The tip is ground to an ultra-thin profile. Deeply curved and full at the belly, the VG-10 hollow-ground blade excels in slicing and is available fully SpyderEdged. Because of its distinctly specialized features it is not intended or designed for general utility or everyday use. Curved in all the right places for ergonomic use and retention of the knife, the handle is black G-10. Mounted for tip-down carry with a custom curved black clip, the knife rides deeply and unobtrusively in a pocket. One of the most specialized CLIPITS in the Spyderco line-up, the Civilian is available in limited quantities.
r

With that discription, a prosecuter is going to tell a jury that you bought the knife with the intended purpose of stabbing or cutting another person.

This is bad.

I think something from Spyderco like the Delica or Endura models would be much better in the court case, if you ever did end up needing to use it.

Just one more thing to think about when using a knife in self defence.

 

[James Kovacich]

Does anyone know the laws for California or where to find them? This is my knife. http://www.crkt.com/litem1.html

I also took it to Europe with me. Is there anyway to check the laws there, specifically Spain but I plan to travel to other countries too?

 

[Cirdan]

I also took it to Europe with me. Is there anyway to check the laws there, specifically Spain but I plan to travel to other countries too?

Carrying a knife in public places have been illegal in Norway for a few years. Also the police are checking people becauce of recent knife killings.

 

[Blindside]

Does anyone know the laws for California or where to find them? This is my knife. http://www.crkt.com/litem1.html

I also took it to Europe with me. Is there anyway to check the laws there, specifically Spain but I plan to travel to other countries too?

This is a very good site for weapon carry:
http://www.packing.org

This is also good site:
http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/sta-law.htm

I don't live in Cali, but I found this, it has some decent advice along with a mention of some of the local municipal laws, which the above links don't address.
http://www.equalccw.com/knifelaw.html

Lamont

 

[Carol]

Couple of things...it's important to understand the law where you are, not just where you live.

In less than 45 minutes I can be in the city of Boston, which has different laws than where I am. Less than 45 minutes in the other direction and I'm in New Hampshire which has WAY different laws than where I am.

Personally I'm a little cautious of the websites. Packing.org is a good jumping off point for a legal reference, but it should not be 100% of one's legal research. It's quite proudly a pro-weapons site, and backs up some of the legal vagaries with pro-weapons comments (ie: A State Trooper says a knife like this is OK as long as you aren't waving it around being a jerk) but there is nothing in the law that backs that statement up.

An arrest record is nothing to mess around with.

 

[Kwiter]

I'd say consult a CRIMINAL Lawyer and check local statues yourself.
I've heard some WHOPPERS from Law Enforcement Officers which upon further research was completely WRONG, thats not to say no LEO knows the law but there's too many that don't or simply give incorrect information.

I even had an Officer who inspects firearms ask me if the Muzzle Brake on my .22 Pistol was a silencer!

I've also seen many LEO when firing their sidearm Spray and Pray, even seen a few with eyes closed while firing. The eyes closed musta been some kinda Zen thing I guess ;-)

Skennen Peace.

 

[ginshun]

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183016

a good place to start when looking up knife laws.

 

[bobster_ice]

Does anyone know the laws for California or where to find them? This is my knife. http://www.crkt.com/litem1.html

I also took it to Europe with me. Is there anyway to check the laws there, specifically Spain but I plan to travel to other countries too?

In Spain it is illegal to carry a knife with you, and the spanish police would kick your *** if you were caught with one.

 

[kenposikh]

In Spain it is illegal to carry a knife with you, and the spanish police would kick your *** if you were caught with one.

Wish I'd known that when I recently bought one in a shop in spain and carried it with me. how lucky was I

 

[James Kovacich]

Wish I'd known that when I recently bought one in a shop in spain and carried it with me. how lucky was I

I brought back a Spanish sword.