Where Did The 90% Come From?

[MJS]

Many times when we talk about fighting, we hear the statement, "90% of all fights end up on the ground." What are everyones thoughts on this? While I understand that in a MMA event, this would apply more, considering the goal is submission, but when your life is on the line, I'd think that your feet would be the best place to be. I'm certainly not against having some ground skill, as I feel that its best to be skilled in all ranges. In addition, if you did find yourself on the ground, having the knowledge on how to safely and properly get back to your feet is a plus.

Thoughts?

 

[tshadowchaser]

If no one runs or both don't just decide to stop some one usualy gets knocked down

 

[FearlessFreep]

I believe he "90%" line comes from a study of cops I believe in California, in dealing with encounters they had, but that's a bit skewed because they were attempting to subdue someone so they often are trying to get someone down. So...take it with a grain of context.


Or as I tend to think, "100% of fights start on the feet"

Or another way I tend to look at what I've seenis that amongst unskilled fighters, the conflict tends to go to the ground because of gravity and that same lack of skill (bad balance, trip...you fall, etc). Amongst trained fighters, the fight tends to go where the more skilled fighter wants it to go.

Highy simplistic I know but...just a rule of thumb I use

 

[Andrew Green]

I believe he "90%" line comes from a study of cops I believe in California, in dealing with encounters they had, but that's a bit skewed because they were attempting to subdue someone so they often are trying to get someone down. So...take it with a grain of context.

Yup, that's about it.

Also tends to go there a fair bit on it's own, especially if one of the fighters wants it there and the other doesn't have any wrestling ability. Even some of the matches with two standup guys back in the "style vs style" days of the UFC ended up on the ground with neither wanting it there.

 

[MJS]

Or as I tend to think, "100% of fights start on the feet"

Or another way I tend to look at what I've seenis that amongst unskilled fighters, the conflict tends to go to the ground because of gravity and that same lack of skill (bad balance, trip...you fall, etc). Amongst trained fighters, the fight tends to go where the more skilled fighter wants it to go.

Two good points! It really is a chess game. The goal is being able to not play your opponents game, but instead, have him play yours.

 

[Ross]

I’ve heard this 90% rule but as far as the validity of it’s claim I had heard that it was developed by the grappling arts rather than on realistic street fights.

True in virtually all street fights that I have witnessed and seen one of the individuals has ended up on the floor but this is usually while the attacker(s) are kicking them as they lay in the foetal position trying to protect themselves.

In a street environment you are unlikely to encounter an experienced wrestler or grappler.

However, in a MMA fight this will be common because it is easier to apply submission moves than it is to stand and fight it out with someone until the other is beaten.

 

[Andrew Green]

However, in a MMA fight this will be common because it is easier to apply submission moves than it is to stand and fight it out with someone until the other is beaten.

Not sure about this, without duing any stats stuff it seems as many fights end in KO as do in Submission.

 

[MJS]

1)I’ve heard this 90% rule but as far as the validity of it’s claim I had heard that it was developed by the grappling arts rather than on realistic street fights.


2)True in virtually all street fights that I have witnessed and seen one of the individuals has ended up on the floor but this is usually while the attacker(s) are kicking them as they lay in the foetal position trying to protect themselves.


3)In a street environment you are unlikely to encounter an experienced wrestler or grappler.


4)However, in a MMA fight this will be common because it is easier to apply submission moves than it is to stand and fight it out with someone until the other is beaten.

1) I heard the term back in '93 when the Gracies/NHB/MMA came into the spotlight. I was always wondering if there was another source for that theory.

2) I've seen some in the scenario in which you mention, as well as some that consisted on your typical school yard brawl. Two parties rolling on the ground, throwing some sloppy strikes and some poor positions, nothing that someone with a little grappling background could not have gotten out of.

3) Agreed

4)

 

[Phadrus00]

Having watched a scuffle or two in my day I would say that most "real world" altercations end up with somebody grabbing some clothing and trying to throw the opponent off-balance enough to land a blow. This is the typical prelude to the battle going to the ground.

It is less about intention and skill than raw instinct I would say. Most unskilled fighters end up closing and grabbing and trying to launch their attacks while grabbing their opponent either standing or on the ground. It's what we are most familiar with from horsing around with freinds and siblings and it allows them to judge their range. It also reduces the percieved threat I think. People beleive that if they are holding onto the person they are not going to be able to be hit so hard or tossed to the ground easily so they latch on and are reluctant to let go.

It's hard to deal with that kind of frenetic energy plus the environment tends to be very random. It is much harder to control the range when you are in a parking lot or a contained space. And it is very difficult to stop a determined drunk guy who is willing to eat a few punches and kicks to crash into you and take it to the ground in some reenactment of his childhood! *grin*

In an ideal world we get to control the range, we keep our opponents in the place where we can deal with them most effectively, but the real world often falls short of ideal. I think that we train for the less than ideal situation and can be pleasantly surprised when it is better than we thought it might be!

In terms of training, plan on ending the fight ON THE GROUND! Train submission and chokes and definately train reversals! An unskilled fighter is not going to expect a mount reversal that suddenly takes him from being on top to being on the bottom. Can it be done quickly? YES! A choke or an arm break is over in a matter of seconds. Getting back up is FAR easier when he is out cold or nursing a dislocated elbow or shoulder.

Rob

 

[AceHBK]

Ironic the timing of this thread. I had a co-workers boyfriend get damn near knocked out a week ago. He was fighting a guy one on one and then his friend jumped in and hit him with some brass knucks and that was pretty much all she wrote.

Im 28 and I remember being young and fights being one on one. Nowadays they are 2 or 3 on 1 or whatever, someway or somehow there is a party at a disadvantage. Do you wan to be on the ground?? Heck no!! Stick and move! But if you do, you better take one down with you and give them hell while you are being kicked in the back of your head and ribs.

Most fights end up on the ground and I agree with mostly everyone here. If u end up there end it ASAP or get up ASAP. Your long term health may depend on it!

 

[patroldawg27]

I can buy the 90% theory from a Law Enforcement perspective because when dealing with a violent or resisting offender it usually does "end up on the ground". By that I mean the offender will be taken down by officers in an attempt to restrain them to prevent injuries to the offender/officers. But this does not necessarily mean "on the ground" in a wrestling/grappling/rolling around street fight mainly due to the fact that it is not much fun grappling with a full gun belt on. Trust me on that one!

 

[Bigshadow]

Much of what I have seen (Including the arrests on Cops) it appears alot of going to the ground is poor balance and/or misjudgement of distance and/or overcommitment to an action.

Funny though, have you seen people start swinging and watch how many (er uh few) actually make contact? It is amazing.

Of course, what I have seen, it appears that virtually none of them actually had any real training.

 

[AceHBK]

Funny though, have you seen people start swinging and watch how many (er uh few) actually make contact? It is amazing.

That is sooo true. Just wild punches hoping to land a good one.

 

[patroldawg27]

Much of what I have seen (Including the arrests on Cops) it appears alot of going to the ground is poor balance and/or misjudgement of distance and/or overcommitment to an action.


True there are many instances of poor balance or overcommitment. Also remember though that unfortunately alot of what you see on Cops is officers "hamming it up" for the camera. Most of us watch Cops as a what not to do!

 

[Bigshadow]

True there are many instances of poor balance or overcommitment. Also remember though that unfortunately alot of what you see on Cops is officers "hamming it up" for the camera. Most of us watch Cops as a what not to do!

Thanks for the info. Also, it wasn't meant as a stab at officers, just a generalized comment. I know there is a broad range in that brush stroke!

 

[Robert Lee]

I agree myself That I heard more about the 90% aspect after the UFC came to light. before that did not here or relate to that notion. But on the streets any thing can happen In a tighter Place bar club ect. You are closer together will end in a clinch faster And then perhaps onto the ground. And if you hit them hard hit them fast then you will not go to the ground . Best to improve enough on the clinch ground game to help somewhat. A good stand up fight does not last long either fighting is anybodys game stand up ground no time for percents

 

[Rich Parsons]

Many times when we talk about fighting, we hear the statement, "90% of all fights end up on the ground." What are everyones thoughts on this? While I understand that in a MMA event, this would apply more, considering the goal is submission, but when your life is on the line, I'd think that your feet would be the best place to be. I'm certainly not against having some ground skill, as I feel that its best to be skilled in all ranges. In addition, if you did find yourself on the ground, having the knowledge on how to safely and properly get back to your feet is a plus.

Thoughts?

What is funny is that in the mid 80's it was 60%. And Yes there were Wrestlers and Ju-Jutsu even before that here in the USA. ** Note I was not a part of it, but I know those who were. **

In the late 80's to early 90's I started hearing 70% and 75%, with it shortly going to 80%.

With advent of the Internet and some documentation of people spouting stats without data, or with stories about police of FBI stats where they work for control and non-leathal restraints which are not really fights, but arrests, the number went to 90% and staid.

When I first heard the 90% rule in college it was 90% of all stats were made up by people.

 

[FearlessFreep]

One thing to remember is that "ground != grapple" and "stand != strike"

In BJJ class we worked on some standing clinches and chokes an such. You can do BJJ from a standing position

A few weeks ago I was sparring a guy and he liked to wrestle. He caught my arm and I flipped/tolled into it to land on my back (going with the direction of his movement) on the ground and kicked up into his body....he backed up and I was back to my feet before he could come back in.

I mean, that's just limited anecdotal, but it's something I've heard others talk abut as well....you can still strike, hands and feet, from the ground...if you practice it...you can still grapple and wrestle from on your feet, if you practice it.

 

[Andrew Green]

One thing to remember is that "ground != grapple" and "stand != strike"

On the ground, you're generally grappling. I think you mean ground =! submissions, but GnP requires grappling as well.

3 different "types" of movement in MMA.

Standing and seperated - footwork
Clinch work
and ground work.


Whether you choose to strike or look for submissions is irrelevant, the basic movement principals stay the same, just different strategies.