Leading senior citizens to the "Dark Side" - Right or wrong?

[mograph]

Strictly speaking, yes, it’s a thing. How many times have you been impressed? That is a genuine question.

A few times? Many times? Being impressed is time- and exposure-dependent, isn't it? One is first impressed at the new thing, then respectful on subsequent exposures to that thing, I suppose. In order to be continually impressed by someone, we need to continually see new things from them. I'm not impressed by the Xiaowang clip, because I've seen it a lot, but I respect his high level of skill -- c'mon, the guy's a Chen Grandmaster.

When I first saw the musician Esperanza Spalding, I was very impressed; if I see her again, I'll be very pleased and respectful of her immense skill and talent. But in order to be impressed, I'd have to see something new from her, or I'd need to have forgotten how good she is. But if I don't see something new, I'll still feel very grateful to see her live in concert.

So being impressed is subjective. It lies in the interaction between the subject and the object (how Eastern). Being impressive is not a quality that lies solely in the object.

When old fans go to see the Rolling Stones playing familiar material, are they impressed? Or do they just have a good time, enjoying the skills of the musicians? If some young'un saw them for the first time, and said "I'm not impressed," they'd get a whack on the head.

But our modern western society demands continual stimulation, always something new and impressive. "Impress me." If you're "not impressed," that's seen as a bad thing. Bah.

Anyway, I'm impressed about as much as the next person, I guess. Not sure what you mean.

 

[Xue Sheng]

A few times? Many times? Being impressed is time- and exposure-dependent, isn't it? One is first impressed at the new thing, then respectful on subsequent exposures to that thing, I suppose. In order to be continually impressed by someone, we need to continually see new things from them. I'm not impressed by the Xiaowang clip, because I've seen it a lot, but I respect his high level of skill -- c'mon, the guy's a Chen Grandmaster.

When I first saw the musician Esperanza Spalding, I was very impressed; if I see her again, I'll be very pleased and respectful of her immense skill and talent. But in order to be impressed, I'd have to see something new from her, or I'd need to have forgotten how good she is. But if I don't see something new, I'll still feel very grateful to see her live in concert.

So being impressed is subjective. It lies in the interaction between the subject and the object (how Eastern). Being impressive is not a quality that lies solely in the object.

When old fans go to see the Rolling Stones playing familiar material, are they impressed? Or do they just have a good time, enjoying the skills of the musicians? If some young'un saw them for the first time, and said "I'm not impressed," they'd get a whack on the head.

But our modern western society demands continual stimulation, always something new and impressive. "Impress me." If you're "not impressed," that's seen as a bad thing. Bah.

Anyway, I'm impressed about as much as the next person, I guess. Not sure what you mean.

Agreed

Speaking as a Traditional Taijiquan guy for many years......Chen Xiaowang's level of skill is rather impressive..... am I looking at the clip wide eyed and saying WOW at every strike....nope....but knowing what I know about taijiquan, that is pretty impressive. And sadly, that level of skill and understanding is dying out. Chen Xiao Wang is in his mid 70s, Chen Zhenglei is in his early 70s, and folks like my Yang Shifu tend to be in their 80s or older.

 

[mograph]

Agreed

Speaking as a Traditional Taijiquan guy for many years......Chen Xiaowang's level of skill is rather impressive..... am I looking at the clip wide eyed and saying WOW at every strike....nope....but knowing what I know about taijiquan, that is pretty impressive. And sadly, that level of skill and understanding is dying out. Chen Xiao Wang is in his mid 70s, Chen Zhenglei is in his early 70s, and folks like my Yang Shifu tend to be in their 80s or older.

Yep. It's dying out because people don't want to take the time to learn it. And it doesn't give instant gratification. And it takes yeeeeeeears to look like a badass.

My teacher's TCM specialty was bone-setting, and he's a lineage guy for Mizongyi. Yeah, those and a buck will get you a cup of coffee, nowadays.

Anyway, what most tai chi folks think is the "dark side" is just martial. I would tell them that it's not about gleefully wanting to injure people; in their context, it's more like testing your skill with a partner. In class, nobody's going to want to injure anyone. If they do, they should be kicked out.

But if they want to defend themselves in the short term, they're probably in the wrong school, or wrong system.

 

[Phoenix44]

I think it’s kind of unfair to imply there’s no value to “tai chi for health,” or that it’s somehow “wrong.” The movement of the forms improves balance and decreases the risk of falls in seniors (that’s research, not my personal opinion). For some people, that’s all they want or need. Tai chi taught as a martial art, applications, contact, may be risky for those who have arthritis, autoimmune disorders, or osteoporosis for example. Should they NOT do “tai chi for health”? People who who want more from their tai chi practice can be directed to appropriate training.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

A few times? Many times? Being impressed is time- and exposure-dependent, isn't it? One is first impressed at the new thing, then respectful on subsequent exposures to that thing, I suppose. In order to be continually impressed by someone, we need to continually see new things from them. I'm not impressed by the Xiaowang clip, because I've seen it a lot, but I respect his high level of skill -- c'mon, the guy's a Chen Grandmaster.

When I first saw the musician Esperanza Spalding, I was very impressed; if I see her again, I'll be very pleased and respectful of her immense skill and talent. But in order to be impressed, I'd have to see something new from her, or I'd need to have forgotten how good she is. But if I don't see something new, I'll still feel very grateful to see her live in concert.

So being impressed is subjective. It lies in the interaction between the subject and the object (how Eastern). Being impressive is not a quality that lies solely in the object.

When old fans go to see the Rolling Stones playing familiar material, are they impressed? Or do they just have a good time, enjoying the skills of the musicians? If some young'un saw them for the first time, and said "I'm not impressed," they'd get a whack on the head.

But our modern western society demands continual stimulation, always something new and impressive. "Impress me." If you're "not impressed," that's seen as a bad thing. Bah.

Anyway, I'm impressed about as much as the next person, I guess. Not sure what you mean.

What I am getting at is the Fa Jing is a real tool that has been perverted by charlatans into a sideshow gimmick. I don’t like candle snuffers, it isn’t real. I’m not impressed by these demonstrations. I have trained in Yang style Tai chi Chuan for over 25 years. I have seen so many fakers and bs artists that I cant count them all. It isn’t eastern or western to call bs on people that claim to make people fall down without touch. Either it’s real or it isn’t, there is one certain way to find it out. The reluctance to face any scrutiny is the reason the hucksters and phony teachers have proliferated in Tai chi for so long. My Sifu would say “the mumbo jumbo is real, but not without the physical reality, there are no magic shortcuts”. The phonys cheapen the hard work and long hours of effort it takes to cultivate high skill in the realm of internal martial arts. That’s why I am so stridently opposed to it, and why I call it like I see it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think it’s kind of unfair to imply there’s no value to “tai chi for health,” or that it’s somehow “wrong.” The movement of the forms improves balance and decreases the risk of falls in seniors (that’s research, not my personal opinion). For some people, that’s all they want or need. Tai chi taught as a martial art, applications, contact, may be risky for those who have arthritis, autoimmune disorders, or osteoporosis for example. Should they NOT do “tai chi for health”? People who who want more from their tai chi practice can be directed to appropriate training.

I don't think anyone is implying that, I know I am not. But what does happen is many that come form health, and most I taught over the years were there for that, get upset or offended if there is any discussion about the martial arts of taijiquan and its history as a martial art.

Note a previous post where one of my students stormed out saying "I'm Not here for Karate" after another student of mine asked about the martial arts of it. And all I basically said was yes it is, but I'm not teaching that in this class, talk to me after class. Or the gentleman I tried to correct his form in tuishou (2 person form) who looked at me and very arrogantly said, "I don't DO martial arts, I do TAIJI" and then left the guan. I have run into this multiple times in the 30 years I have been training taijiquan.

It has health benefits, and if that is what someone is after that's great. Just don't get upset, be offended or argue the point if someone else wants to know or learn about it.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

A few times? Many times? Being impressed is time- and exposure-dependent, isn't it? One is first impressed at the new thing, then respectful on subsequent exposures to that thing, I suppose. In order to be continually impressed by someone, we need to continually see new things from them. I'm not impressed by the Xiaowang clip, because I've seen it a lot, but I respect his high level of skill -- c'mon, the guy's a Chen Grandmaster.

When I first saw the musician Esperanza Spalding, I was very impressed; if I see her again, I'll be very pleased and respectful of her immense skill and talent. But in order to be impressed, I'd have to see something new from her, or I'd need to have forgotten how good she is. But if I don't see something new, I'll still feel very grateful to see her live in concert.

So being impressed is subjective. It lies in the interaction between the subject and the object (how Eastern). Being impressive is not a quality that lies solely in the object.

When old fans go to see the Rolling Stones playing familiar material, are they impressed? Or do they just have a good time, enjoying the skills of the musicians? If some young'un saw them for the first time, and said "I'm not impressed," they'd get a whack on the head.

But our modern western society demands continual stimulation, always something new and impressive. "Impress me." If you're "not impressed," that's seen as a bad thing. Bah.

Anyway, I'm impressed about as much as the next person, I guess. Not sure what you mean.

To be fair, I’m not talking about the Chen master Per se. I was talking fa Jing.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

A few times? Many times? Being impressed is time- and exposure-dependent, isn't it? One is first impressed at the new thing, then respectful on subsequent exposures to that thing, I suppose. In order to be continually impressed by someone, we need to continually see new things from them. I'm not impressed by the Xiaowang clip, because I've seen it a lot, but I respect his high level of skill -- c'mon, the guy's a Chen Grandmaster.

When I first saw the musician Esperanza Spalding, I was very impressed; if I see her again, I'll be very pleased and respectful of her immense skill and talent. But in order to be impressed, I'd have to see something new from her, or I'd need to have forgotten how good she is. But if I don't see something new, I'll still feel very grateful to see her live in concert.

So being impressed is subjective. It lies in the interaction between the subject and the object (how Eastern). Being impressive is not a quality that lies solely in the object.

When old fans go to see the Rolling Stones playing familiar material, are they impressed? Or do they just have a good time, enjoying the skills of the musicians? If some young'un saw them for the first time, and said "I'm not impressed," they'd get a whack on the head.

But our modern western society demands continual stimulation, always something new and impressive. "Impress me." If you're "not impressed," that's seen as a bad thing. Bah.

Anyway, I'm impressed about as much as the next person, I guess. Not sure what you mean.

I don’t think I was very clear in my post. Apologies.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yep. It's dying out because people don't want to take the time to learn it. And it doesn't give instant gratification. And it takes yeeeeeeears to look like a badass.

My teacher's TCM specialty was bone-setting, and he's a lineage guy for Mizongyi. Yeah, those and a buck will get you a cup of coffee, nowadays.

Anyway, what most tai chi folks think is the "dark side" is just martial. I would tell them that it's not about gleefully wanting to injure people; in their context, it's more like testing your skill with a partner. In class, nobody's going to want to injure anyone. If they do, they should be kicked out.

But if they want to defend themselves in the short term, they're probably in the wrong school, or wrong system.

If they don't want to learn the martial arts, I'm ok with that, just don't try and stop others from learning it if they want.

My Yang shifu said years ago he was retired from teaching taijiquan, because no one want to learn it anymore. All they want is forms and to cal themselves a master.

But you are absolutely right, taijiquan, to use it as it is intended, as a martial art, is most certainly no quick fix. It takes a long time.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I think it’s kind of unfair to imply there’s no value to “tai chi for health,” or that it’s somehow “wrong.” The movement of the forms improves balance and decreases the risk of falls in seniors (that’s research, not my personal opinion). For some people, that’s all they want or need. Tai chi taught as a martial art, applications, contact, may be risky for those who have arthritis, autoimmune disorders, or osteoporosis for example. Should they NOT do “tai chi for health”? People who who want more from their tai chi practice can be directed to appropriate training.

Nobody I know thinks that. I definitely believe that you will get an increased health benefit from knowing what the postures are for and doing the form with proper intention, but it certainly isn’t required. Any Tai Chi Chuan you are doing is better than nothing.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

If they don't want to learn the martial arts, I'm ok with that, just don't try and stop others from learning it if they want.

My Yang shifu said years ago he was retired from teaching taijiquan, because no one want to learn it anymore. All they want is forms and to cal themselves a master.

But you are absolutely right, taijiquan, to use it as it is intended, as a martial art, is most certainly no quick fix. It takes a long time.

Yep. It's dying out because people don't want to take the time to learn it. And it doesn't give instant gratification. And it takes yeeeeeeears to look like a badass.

My teacher's TCM specialty was bone-setting, and he's a lineage guy for Mizongyi. Yeah, those and a buck will get you a cup of coffee, nowadays.

Anyway, what most tai chi folks think is the "dark side" is just martial. I would tell them that it's not about gleefully wanting to injure people; in their context, it's more like testing your skill with a partner. In class, nobody's going to want to injure anyone. If they do, they should be kicked out.

But if they want to defend themselves in the short term, they're probably in the wrong school, or wrong system.

Most times what I see is the young strong guys can’t soften up enough to understand what they are missing out on so they only want to train wushu gung fu. The older or softer crowd can’t or won’t do the hard fast excercise required so they only want to train Tai Chi Chuan. The people who train both find out that these things are like mirror images, you can do wushu forms slow and you can do Tai Chi Chuan fast. Being able to all things equally in all directions is the way.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

A few times? Many times? Being impressed is time- and exposure-dependent, isn't it? One is first impressed at the new thing, then respectful on subsequent exposures to that thing, I suppose. In order to be continually impressed by someone, we need to continually see new things from them. I'm not impressed by the Xiaowang clip, because I've seen it a lot, but I respect his high level of skill -- c'mon, the guy's a Chen Grandmaster.

When I first saw the musician Esperanza Spalding, I was very impressed; if I see her again, I'll be very pleased and respectful of her immense skill and talent. But in order to be impressed, I'd have to see something new from her, or I'd need to have forgotten how good she is. But if I don't see something new, I'll still feel very grateful to see her live in concert.

So being impressed is subjective. It lies in the interaction between the subject and the object (how Eastern). Being impressive is not a quality that lies solely in the object.

When old fans go to see the Rolling Stones playing familiar material, are they impressed? Or do they just have a good time, enjoying the skills of the musicians? If some young'un saw them for the first time, and said "I'm not impressed," they'd get a whack on the head.

But our modern western society demands continual stimulation, always something new and impressive. "Impress me." If you're "not impressed," that's seen as a bad thing. Bah.

Anyway, I'm impressed about as much as the next person, I guess. Not sure what you mean.

I mean that the real deal skill is rare. How many times did you see someone who really impressed you with skill? Who were they? I am not claiming to be on that level, but I would count my Sifu and Sigung in that group. I know my post sounded aggressive but that’s not how I meant it. I was honestly asking.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Most times what I see is the young strong guys can’t soften up enough to understand what they are missing out on so they only want to train wushu gung fu. The older or softer crowd can’t or won’t do the hard fast excercise required so they only want to train Tai Chi Chuan. The people who train both find out that these things are like mirror images, you can do wushu forms slow and you can do Tai Chi Chuan fast. Being able to all things equally in all directions is the way.

Which is why there are 2 fast forms (one is the fajin form) in my flavor of Yang style that are considered advanced forms

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Which is why there are 2 fast forms (one is the fajin form) in my flavor of Yang style that are considered advanced forms

How many postures in your long form?

 

[Xue Sheng]

How many postures in your long form?

Don't really know, depends on how you count, my shifu and his shifu only called it the long form. But talking with my shifu, it is 108 or 88, depends on if you count the repeats

 

[mograph]

To be fair, I’m not talking about the Chen master Per se. I was talking fa Jing.

I guess we need to define terms, specifically "fa jing." I understand that what Chen Xiaowang was doing is "fa jin." What do you mean by "fa jing?"

 

[Xue Sheng]

I guess we need to define terms, specifically "fa jing." I understand that what Chen Xiaowang was doing is "fa jin." What do you mean by "fa jing?"

I'm guessing it is Fajin

fājìn, (發勁), sometimes misspelled as fajing,

 

[mograph]

I mean that the real deal skill is rare. How many times did you see someone who really impressed you with skill? Who were they? I am not claiming to be on that level, but I would count my Sifu and Sigung in that group. I know my post sounded aggressive but that’s not how I meant it. I was honestly asking.

Oh, yeah, that's why I wrote such a long-winded post -- a serious question deserves some effort put into the answer, I think! Actually yours didn't sound aggressive, so sorry if I gave that impression. I could have asked for clarification in a better way.

I should open with the fact that I'm 61, like most of us here, not a spring chicken. Anyway ... here's another long-winded post. Sorry!

My opinion is that the more impressed I am by something, the farther away I am from it. An actor friend of mine once said that another actor was a God, and I took him to task for it: "nobody is a God, and when you put them on that pedestal, you prevent yourself from acquiring their level of skill." My friend later became the artistic director of a regional theatre, which is good.

I also have been impressed by great trumpet players (I play), such as Rafael Mendez or Wynton Marsalis playing Flight of The Bumblebee at a fast tempo. But in the last year (covid!) I've been learning to play the bloody instrument properly, and can now do things I've never done before, through hard work, attitude, and tips from experts, such as playing a solid, loud, "super C," an octave above a high C. Mendez and Marsalis are still top-flight players, but when I hear them, I think "they're doing that ... but I do this ... but if I change this, I can get closer to that." If I stay impressed, I limit my level of skill. I might never achieve their level of skill (especially circular breathing), but if I stay impressed and separate from them, I won't try, and I might not improve at all.

I've done a couple of things myself that impressed people, but I arrived there through work, attitude, and reflection. We've all done stuff that impressed people, but we don't consider ourselves impressive, I hope. Once we do the new thing, it becomes the new normal. We get in shape, we don't think we're Superman, but we can go up stairs more quickly and stand longer, for example.

Don't get me wrong: I understand beginner's mind, but I don't think that being impressed is necessary to having one. It might even be detrimental, because it reinforces a construct: "I cannot achieve that," whereas the truth is "maybe I can, maybe I can't. But I won't if I don't try."

So, while I have great respect for the masters, I'm only impressed the first time I see them do something. After that, I think "Hmm ... what are they doing there ... how did they do that ...?" And if the feat is years (or decades) away for me, I determine whether I have the time, ability and desire to make their skill a goal. At least, I try to understand what they are doing. I still respect their great skill, but to me, being impressed is time- and exposure-sensitive.

Somewhat relevant to the discussion, I wondered about ling kong jin (empty force), where the teacher waves his hands, and the students fall or bounce away, with no physical contact having been made. At first, I was impressed, but then dismayed by the negative comments about it as its being BS. Then I read a bit more about it, and came to believe that the truth is in-between. It's not meant to be an offensive or defensive technique, it's not meant to be used against anyone, and most importantly, the teacher is not showing off. Instead, he's showing how sensitive his students are, to his visual cues. If they are this sensitive, they should be able to read a partner/opponent's physical cues during push hands, and be sensitive to their own sensations.

When I heard about "energy balls" between the hands (e.g. during Zhan Zhuang), I was impressed when I felt that pull between my own hands. Wow! Energy! But then, with study, I've figured out what that really is: proprioception. We are fooling our body into thinking there's a ball between our hands, and the finer the movements we make between the hands, the greater the imagined sensation of a ball's being there. But that ability is also a good thing to have, because it indicates not this energy flowing between (in a electromagnetic-ish sense), but again, a heightened sensitivity, which can lead to other breakthroughs.

Who in this martial context has impressed me? Hmm. My Sifu (since 2006) has impressed me with his speed, skill in many forms, and tactile sensitivity ... but now I think of him warmly as more of a kindly uncle figure. I think he's from a world that doesn't display great feats unless they mean to teach them to you, so maybe I just haven't seen the wild stuff.

I agree with you that individuals exhibiting high levels of skill are rare these days, which is very unfortunate. I try not to think about it much, because they have a lot of wonderful gifts to share. I fear for the loss of their world, which to me is similar to the world of the Japanese carpenter, or Jiro the sushi chef. A world of care, respect, and precision. It reminds me of the world of my father and uncles, best exemplified by Anthony Hopkins' portrayal of Burt Munro in The World's Fastest Indian. Sometimes I feel like Brooksie in The Shawshank Redemption. The world's just gotten too damn fast.

Thanks for reading. I hope that makes sense.

I see that a number of posts have appeared since I started this one (before Covid, it seems), so I'll check them out when I get a chance. Sorry if I missed your responses.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

One year I taught a Taiji class in the Austin Community College. During the 1st day of my Taiji class, I introduced the 8 basic stances

- horse stance (used in Taiji open position stance).
- bow-arrow stance (used in Taiji diagonal fly)
- golden rooster stance (used in Taiji golden rooster stand on one leg).
- empty stance (used in Taiji white crane flap wings).
- ...

Right after I just finished the bow-arrow stance, one guy stood up and said, "This is not Taiji". He then left, and I have never seen him after that day.

When you learn ballroom dance (I'm only in the bronze level), you start with Waltz step, cha cha step, Tango step, ... In Taiji, you start with basic stances. IMO, this is the most natural way to learn Taiji by starting with the stance posture.

 

[Xue Sheng]

One year I taught a Taiji class in the Austin Community College. During the 1st day of my Taiji class, I introduced the 8 basic stances

- horse stance (used in Taiji open position stance).
- bow-arrow stance (used in Taiji diagonal fly)
- golden rooster stance (used in Taiji golden rooster stand on one leg).
- empty stance (used in Taiji white crane flap wings).
- ...

Right after I just finished the bow-arrow stance, one guy stood up and said, "This is not Taiji". He then left, and I have never seen him after that day.

When you learn ballroom dance (I'm only in the bronze level), you start with Waltz step, cha cha step, Tango step, ... In Taiji, you start with basic stances. IMO, this is the most natural way to learn Taiji by starting with the stance posture.

that's how my first shifu taught taijiquan and it is part of my second (main) shifu original curriculum. But you rarely, if ever, see it anymore. no one has the patients these days