Leading senior citizens to the "Dark Side" - Right or wrong?

mograph

Master Black Belt
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
1,471
Reaction score
525
I was always taught that movement matches breathing. If my breathing is fast then my tai chi should move faster to match my breathing. Breathing controls movement.
I don't think so. I think we can move quite fast while breathing slowly if we have the training and are relaxed. Breathing quickly is a sign that we are taxing our system, to me. We only synchronize an exhale with a strike, but footwork and parrying could be done without that exhale, yes?

Right now, you could probably do some of your forms quite quickly, while breathing slowly, I think.
 

Xue Sheng

All weight is underside
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
31,814
Reaction score
6,345
Location
North American Tectonic Plate
I don't think so. I think we can move quite fast while breathing slowly if we have the training and are relaxed. Breathing quickly is a sign that we are taxing our system, to me. We only synchronize an exhale with a strike, but footwork and parrying could be done without that exhale, yes?

Right now, you could probably do some of your forms quite quickly, while breathing slowly, I think.

My Xingyiquan Shifu once said if you can only strike with power when you exhale, I will attack right after you exhale.

And my Taijiquan shifu always said the same thing, when asked about breathing, that his shifu said....."Yes you should"
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
11,132
Reaction score
2,975
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
I think we can move quite fast while breathing slowly
When you throw 3 punches as fast as you can, you may have the following options:

1. Hold your breath and finish 3 punches.
2. You breath slow. Your breath has nothing to do with your punches.
3. exhale 1/4 for your 1st punch, exhale 1/4 for your 2nd punch, exhale 1/4 for your 3rd punch. After you have finished all 3 punches, your lung still have 1/4 air left.

IMO, 1 < 2 < 3.

1. Of course 1 is a bad idea.
2. Your breath has nothing to do with your power generation. Your mind does not control your breath, and your breath does not control your power.
3. If you can coordinate your power generation with the amount of air that you exhale, your mind control your breath, your breath control your power.

For example, if you just want to use the 1st punch, and the 2nd punch to set up my 3rd punch, you can exhale 1/6 for 1st punch, exhale 1/6 for 2nd punch, and exhale 1/2 for the 3rd punch. It's always a good idea to reserve some air in your lung for emergency, even 1/6 amount of air in your lung is still better than no air in your lung.

IMO, inhale when you punch out is a bad idea. If your opponent attacks you right at that moment, your body is too weak to take that punch. Just let your opponent to punch on your chest when you exhale and when you inhale, you can tell the difference.
 
Last edited:

wolfeyes2323

Orange Belt
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
84
Reaction score
11
Location
Buffalo NY
I have been attending a Tai Chi class twice a week at the local senior center, lead by a very good instructor, whose agenda is based on the health aspects only. Every now and then, he will describe a martial application, but, due to the guidelines. I don't have a problem with this, but some of his students actually want to see some basic techniques, while a few have no interest at learning the so called "dark side"of Tai Chi,as one of them put it. After class, a few weeks ago,a couple of my classmates approached me, and we set up a time to work outside the class room. They knew that I had been training for ages, and even though I never claimed to be an expert, and will be a perpetual student with what time I have left, I started to show some basic applications to them, just to help them understand what can be done with and in between the postures. I am not wanting undermine our instructor by any means, so am I wrong to show them a glimpse of the so called "dark side" ?
Martial Arts are a double edged sword,
Like Traditional Chinese Medicine ,
the knowledge can be used to heal or
to harm, it is not the art that is
good or bad, it is the intent of the
practitioner. what is the intent
of teaching martial application,
or learning martial application,
to threaten , intimidate or harm,
or to protect, defend, and do no
unnecessary harm ?

It comes down to the character of
those you teach, if you are comfortable
with this then continue , if you begin
to doubt stop.

Remember though we may not want to do it,
a punch in the jaw that renders a attacker
unconscious is preferable to a bullet between
the eyes.
 

Wing Woo Gar

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Sep 30, 2021
Messages
756
Reaction score
325
My personal thoughts on this is that I became better at Tai Chi once I understood the movements that I was making with my hands. Knowing the applications allows me to correct my structure because now my movement has context. Without the application, Tai Chi has no meaning and focus. Without that people are more likely to move incorrectly. It's not enough to copy movement.

Imagine watching someone draw on paper and the only thing you knew was to copy the movement. Now lets add context to the movement say you are drawing a map. Now your movement has meaning. It's doesn't mean you are going to be traveling, but it does mean your movement has direction and purpose. I think this is important in Tai Chi as moving incorrectly can cause more harm than good.
Yes!
 

Wing Woo Gar

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Sep 30, 2021
Messages
756
Reaction score
325
I don't think so. I think we can move quite fast while breathing slowly if we have the training and are relaxed. Breathing quickly is a sign that we are taxing our system, to me. We only synchronize an exhale with a strike, but footwork and parrying could be done without that exhale, yes?

Right now, you could probably do some of your forms quite quickly, while breathing slowly, I think.
I was taught that the breath rides the motion, and the motion guides the breath. My breath at whatever speed, goes with my motions and they create whatever rhythm Im using. Once I catch the beat of the opponents motion and breathing i change mine to match or counter their timing. Im playing my breath and motion like two separate instruments. This allows me to control the lead or yield positions more effectively because I can switch which of my two instruments is controlling my rhythm. i practice all things at differing speeds and power alternating my rhythms.
 

Wing Woo Gar

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Sep 30, 2021
Messages
756
Reaction score
325
My Xingyiquan Shifu once said if you can only strike with power when you exhale, I will attack right after you exhale.

And my Taijiquan shifu always said the same thing, when asked about breathing, that his shifu said....."Yes you should"
Breathe in and then out, and then in and out, repeat as needed. Great post!
 

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
10,789
Reaction score
3,713
I don't think so. I think we can move quite fast while breathing slowly if we have the training and are relaxed. Breathing quickly is a sign that we are taxing our system, to me. We only synchronize an exhale with a strike, but footwork and parrying could be done without that exhale, yes?

Right now, you could probably do some of your forms quite quickly, while breathing slowly, I think.
I coordinate all of my movement with my breathing. Fast breathing (Fast Exhale) creates fast strikes. (Slower Exhale) for grappling creates better power over longer period of activity.

Doing kung fu forms quickly while breathing slowly is like telling someone to sprint 110 meters while breathing slowly. I don't know about other systems, but it won't happen in Jow Ga.
 

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
10,789
Reaction score
3,713
2. Your breath has nothing to do with your power generation
I disagree lift a heavy weight while breathing in. Throw your hardest punch while breathing in. Swing at a baseball while breathing in. One will feel weaker.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
11,132
Reaction score
2,975
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca

Xue Sheng

All weight is underside
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
31,814
Reaction score
6,345
Location
North American Tectonic Plate
I disagree lift a heavy weight while breathing in. Throw your hardest punch while breathing in. Swing at a baseball while breathing in. One will feel weaker.

Because that is the only way you have ever trained it.

Like my Xingyi shifu said, if you can only hit with power while exhaling, he will attack right after you exhale
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
14,054
Reaction score
3,598
Location
San Francisco
If you are muscling the punch, then you need to exhale sharply when you strike.

If you are relaxed and using full-body connection, then breath normally. Could either inhale or exhale on the strike, doesnt matter much. Dont exhale sharply.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
11,132
Reaction score
2,975
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
If you are relaxed and using full-body connection, then breath normally.
If you throw right hook, left hook, right uppercut, left uppercut within 1 second, can you breath normally?

Old CMA saying said, "Fighting is like your shirt is catching on fire." To be able to relax in a life and death situation may not be realistic. When your body is moving in lighting speed, there is no way that you can breath normally.
 

Xue Sheng

All weight is underside
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
31,814
Reaction score
6,345
Location
North American Tectonic Plate
If you throw right hook, left hook, right uppercut, left uppercut within 1 second, can you breath normally?

Old CMA saying said, "Fighting is like your shirt is catching on fire." To be able to relax in a life and death situation may not be realistic. When your body is moving in lighting speed, there is no way that you can breath normally.

Can you throw a right hook, left hook, right uppercut, left uppercut within 1 second?
 

Latest Discussions

Top