Kuroda's Grip?
- Thread starter Telfer
- Start date
pgsmith
Master of Arts
Ummm ... no one except for TSKSR. Their basic grip has the pinky curled under the way that Mr. Lowry describes it in his book. Speaking of which, Dave has said that that particular book was written in reference to the aiki-ken that was currently being done in the Aikido class he was attending at the time. It has nothing to do with Shinkage ryu, or any other sword school, and was not meant as a primer for learning sword work at home. I'm sure he probably appreciates all the wanna-be swordsmen buying it though.
Another point that this brings up, is the fact that everything about the Japanese sword can end up being ryu-specific, even something "as general as how to hold the darn thing." As an example, on another forum a poster made a nice little visual series of how to properly do noto (sheathe the sword). It was all very nice except that several of the things that he specifically said to make sure and not do were exactly how I was told to do things in different schools.
kaizasosei
Master Black Belt
I think, the wider the grip the better for control, contact and immediate response from the rear. Like in ichinokamae the front and rear hand form a fulcrum whereby the rear hand changes the direction of the swords point very quickly.
But for the strongest cuts i think a slightly narrower grip would be more natural, depending on what has to be cut or struck and how.
j
But for the strongest cuts i think a slightly narrower grip would be more natural, depending on what has to be cut or struck and how.
j
This one?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenshin_Shōden_Katori_Shintō-ryū
One of the oldest schools in Japan. Its funny I was reading up on the history of different schools according to Akita Moriji Sensei, and most of them claim to have been handed down by the Shinto Gods...or some Bodhisattva whispering their secrets in a dream!
He also makes a point of explaining how strongly Confucianism informed the ethics of the teachings.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hey Telfer.
I seem to be having difficulty making my point clearly here. I'll try once more.
To begin with, you made a statement about certain things not having any real benefit (things that aren't going to help them...), including doing a crossword, eating a chocolate chip cookie, and having an orgasm. I gave the benefits, and how they actually can help, other than the orgasm... I kinda hoped you could see the benefit of that yourself. But for your benefit, it aids the propulgation of the species, it increases the chances of getting pregnant, and it makes the entire thing that much better! These all help in many ways, none of which are related to martial arts, but that was not part of your context. That gets back to what I was saying earlier.
You state that you make a distinction between pleasure and happiness, and between happiness and proficiency... okay, but what does that have to do with my answers? You say that a crossword doesn't help someone, I gave examples of ways it does, and you seem to ignore that completely? Same goes for the other examples. So I'm not really seeing your point.
Now, I didn't say you couldn't get an answer (correct or otherwise) without context, what I said was that it wouldn't be of use to you without context. You have shown a number of times here that you are rather inexperienced and ignorant of Japanese Swordsmanship (again, that is not a bad thing, and asking questions of something you don't know about is definately encouraged), so asking specifics is not something that will help, as you don't have the requisite knowledge to really understand the answers.
For example, you commented that you feel a reason the Japanese sword "continues to be made with only one sharp edge..." is because of the blocking options. No, that is backwards. The sword was designed with a new construction method, and the construction method resulted in the classic curve, which occurs due to the differential quenching and different levels of carbon in the different steels used (this is very basic, but enough). The differential hardening "pulls" the sword into it's curved shape, it is not formed that way initially. The curve allows a single sharpened edge (there are variations, such as the Kogarasu Maru), so the reinforced blocking methodology is a result of the sword, the sword is not a result of the methodology.
You also speak of Kuroda's lack of facial expression as unusual. It's not. That is the way classical martial artists train. It's an expression of a concept called Mushin, and again shows your lack of knowledge in this area. Again, not a bad thing, but should give you an indication that you have a little way to go before asking more technical questions.
At the top of this page, you reference a review of Dave's book. It states quite clearly that his instructions are not considered accurate by Yagyu methodologies, and then you say "What he describes here is exactly as Lowry explains it...pinky curled under and index finger extended", which seems to give the impression that you missed the point of the reviewer as well.
When it comes to the origin story of Katori Shinto Ryu, that is far from uncommon. Schools such as Kashima Shinryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Shindo Muso Ryu, and many more have similar "divine inspiration" at their origins. Take such stories as metaphors for serious training, usually in seclusion or at a Temple. Philosophical influnce is very common as well, and pervades many different aspects of life, including aspects of yours right now.
So basically (and I know I'm repeating myself here), if you want to know about Japanese Swordsmanship, start at the beginning. Jumping to the end won't give you anything you can really use.
To other posts...
Kaizasosei, my friend. Not exactly. A wider grip was favoured by swords used on the battlefield precisely because it gives greater power and leverage to be used against armour. The right hand provides direction, but the left hand provides power, and the further apart they are, the more power you can generate. This is one major reason that the grip has the hands separated in the first place. To get to the "ultimate" in grips, look to the Nodachi or Nagamaki (which realistically is closer to a very long handled sword than a naginata). So for the strongest cuts, a wider grip is needed. A shorter one assists in single hand use, and allows for shorter actions.
I seem to be having difficulty making my point clearly here. I'll try once more.
To begin with, you made a statement about certain things not having any real benefit (things that aren't going to help them...), including doing a crossword, eating a chocolate chip cookie, and having an orgasm. I gave the benefits, and how they actually can help, other than the orgasm... I kinda hoped you could see the benefit of that yourself. But for your benefit, it aids the propulgation of the species, it increases the chances of getting pregnant, and it makes the entire thing that much better! These all help in many ways, none of which are related to martial arts, but that was not part of your context. That gets back to what I was saying earlier.
You state that you make a distinction between pleasure and happiness, and between happiness and proficiency... okay, but what does that have to do with my answers? You say that a crossword doesn't help someone, I gave examples of ways it does, and you seem to ignore that completely? Same goes for the other examples. So I'm not really seeing your point.
Now, I didn't say you couldn't get an answer (correct or otherwise) without context, what I said was that it wouldn't be of use to you without context. You have shown a number of times here that you are rather inexperienced and ignorant of Japanese Swordsmanship (again, that is not a bad thing, and asking questions of something you don't know about is definately encouraged), so asking specifics is not something that will help, as you don't have the requisite knowledge to really understand the answers.
For example, you commented that you feel a reason the Japanese sword "continues to be made with only one sharp edge..." is because of the blocking options. No, that is backwards. The sword was designed with a new construction method, and the construction method resulted in the classic curve, which occurs due to the differential quenching and different levels of carbon in the different steels used (this is very basic, but enough). The differential hardening "pulls" the sword into it's curved shape, it is not formed that way initially. The curve allows a single sharpened edge (there are variations, such as the Kogarasu Maru), so the reinforced blocking methodology is a result of the sword, the sword is not a result of the methodology.
You also speak of Kuroda's lack of facial expression as unusual. It's not. That is the way classical martial artists train. It's an expression of a concept called Mushin, and again shows your lack of knowledge in this area. Again, not a bad thing, but should give you an indication that you have a little way to go before asking more technical questions.
At the top of this page, you reference a review of Dave's book. It states quite clearly that his instructions are not considered accurate by Yagyu methodologies, and then you say "What he describes here is exactly as Lowry explains it...pinky curled under and index finger extended", which seems to give the impression that you missed the point of the reviewer as well.
When it comes to the origin story of Katori Shinto Ryu, that is far from uncommon. Schools such as Kashima Shinryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Shindo Muso Ryu, and many more have similar "divine inspiration" at their origins. Take such stories as metaphors for serious training, usually in seclusion or at a Temple. Philosophical influnce is very common as well, and pervades many different aspects of life, including aspects of yours right now.
So basically (and I know I'm repeating myself here), if you want to know about Japanese Swordsmanship, start at the beginning. Jumping to the end won't give you anything you can really use.
To other posts...
Kaizasosei, my friend. Not exactly. A wider grip was favoured by swords used on the battlefield precisely because it gives greater power and leverage to be used against armour. The right hand provides direction, but the left hand provides power, and the further apart they are, the more power you can generate. This is one major reason that the grip has the hands separated in the first place. To get to the "ultimate" in grips, look to the Nodachi or Nagamaki (which realistically is closer to a very long handled sword than a naginata). So for the strongest cuts, a wider grip is needed. A shorter one assists in single hand use, and allows for shorter actions.
....Interesting....
I disagree with a couple of your points not quoted Chris, nothing to write home about, its too bad we all live so very far apart as a couple beers, some scotch, maybe a practice and some wings would simply add to an interesting discussion/debate.
The above quote however I do disagree with the premise. I understand the logic, but....
A good cut is about transfering power and strength from your body, through your hands and into the monouchi. Too narrow of a grip and the power simple isn't transfered. Too wide a grip and you're using the sword as an axe, using the weight and leaverage in it itself to pound into the target vs. transfering your body weight into it. The power of the body is lost in too wide af a grip.
Your ultimate point is that you continue to lack comprehension of some very simple principles...possibly on purpose???
No, eating chocolate chip cookies might be give you a few minutes of sensory stimulation, and then you might feel sick for a number of reasons. Nobody's seriously going to argue that cookies are GOOD for you, but it is a good example of pleasure vs. real benefit.
Even the unhappiest people in the world can experience pleasure simply by eating something sugary, or grabbing their genitals.
Do orgasms help the species...lol, that depends on who's doing the orgasming!
And again, you dont understand the meaning of 'useful'...so naturally you'll be frustrated by any definition that doesnt conform to your misunderstanding.
No, the sentence is posed as a possibility prefaced by the word *perhaps*.
Go back and read...with comprehension this time.
No...I said I find it *interesting*.
Go back and read...with comprehension this time.
I dont say anything in my post about 'Yagyu methodologies'...only that the reviewer's description of Lowry's grip is accurate. The book is available online, so anyone can check it and see for themselves.
The stories arent presented as metaphors, they are fantasies presented as facts. It underlines the conveniences of polytheism...as a committee of Gods who disagree with each other frequently.
As a matter of fact we ARE at the beginning...and as you can see there is a disparity of opinion about the simplest things. And what does that tell you? That there is no such thing as the 'genuine authentic' way.
Unless...you only want to enquire into the universal scientific principles underlying all styles and schools. Only then will you discover the genuine and authentic....for the same reason that the laws of gravity are the same regardless of who experiences them.
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pgsmith
Master of Arts
Telfer,
What I think Chris is trying to say is that you aren't really going to gain anything from the questions that you're asking. If you are interested in the Japanese sword arts, find a legitimate instructor in your area and start learning. The questions that you're asking have no single or easy answer, and it is very hard to try and frame answers in such a way that a non-practitioner would understand. It will only lead to frustration on both sides.
What I think Chris is trying to say is that you aren't really going to gain anything from the questions that you're asking. If you are interested in the Japanese sword arts, find a legitimate instructor in your area and start learning. The questions that you're asking have no single or easy answer, and it is very hard to try and frame answers in such a way that a non-practitioner would understand. It will only lead to frustration on both sides.
In fact I think the various answers have been very revealing Paul, and it should be remembered also that not ALL of those interested in military arts necessarily want to actively participate.
One member of my family for example is an amateur expert on the Civil War, but has no interest in re-enacting battles with a rifle.
Likewise, I believe my time is better spent at my MMA club than swinging a sword I will never use in combat...but I dont disparage others for doing so, nor should they be disturbed by a purely intellectual interest.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Okay, Telfer. I was going to leave this, as you are simply not listening, but I would like to clarify a few things.
To begin with, my reading comprehension is fine. Maybe you need to make yourself a little clearer with your writing (I believe I have mentioned context before...). With your examples, yes you used the word "perhaps", but what that does is present a personal supposition. And that showed a lack of understanding of the basic aspects of this discussion, which lead to my responce. So the comprehension is fine. And your use of the term "interesting" in regard to Kuroda's lack of facial expression indicated that it was an unusual feature to your experience, hence my responce there. Same again. No, you didn't say anything about Yagyu methodologies, but the review you quoted in your post did. It in fact described the way Dave Lowry demonstrates a grip for the bokken in his book, and then goes on to say that this is not the way it is taught in the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu (the aforementioned Yagyu methodologies), and is not to be followed as it is dangerous and wrong in the reviewers opinion. You then said that the description is exactly what Dave has in his book...? Uh, yes. That is how the reviewer was able to counter it.... not really sure what you meant here. It comes across as if you are endorsing Dave's method of gripping, in the face of the very text you quote.
As to your comprehension, as you have seen fit to question mine, I suggested that you should view the stories of divine inspiration and origin of Japanese martial traditions as metaphorical stories about serious, often solo, training in order to get something out of them that you can relate to. I did not say that that was the way they are presented, so you missed my actual words there... and really, what on earth does that youtube clip have to do with anything we are discussing here? A conspiracy writer talking about his books? I really have no idea how this is relevant, as it has nothing to do with our discussion. You are losing me completely.
You are not starting at the beginning. You are starting in the middle, and explaining the differences between the various ryu-ha approaches is going to frankly be over your head. And that is how this thead started, with you asking about a particular practitioners approach, with no context for us to know you are actually asking about his weapon in order to make one for your cousin (this is not a good source for you to look at for that, by the way).
To start at the beginning would be to walk into a sword school, pick up a bokken, and start training. But I don't think that really interests you at all. So don't. Stick to your MMA, if that's what you want. But I will finish by saying that all the good bokken I have ever seen are created by practitioners of the sword arts, and if you are going to make them, get some experience under your belt. Otherwise I don't predict much success for your work.
But to make one thing absolutely clear... I in no way have been disparaging of any interest in swordsmanship. In fact, quite the opposite, I have been trying to help point you in a direction where you could actually gain some knowledge.
To begin with, my reading comprehension is fine. Maybe you need to make yourself a little clearer with your writing (I believe I have mentioned context before...). With your examples, yes you used the word "perhaps", but what that does is present a personal supposition. And that showed a lack of understanding of the basic aspects of this discussion, which lead to my responce. So the comprehension is fine. And your use of the term "interesting" in regard to Kuroda's lack of facial expression indicated that it was an unusual feature to your experience, hence my responce there. Same again. No, you didn't say anything about Yagyu methodologies, but the review you quoted in your post did. It in fact described the way Dave Lowry demonstrates a grip for the bokken in his book, and then goes on to say that this is not the way it is taught in the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu (the aforementioned Yagyu methodologies), and is not to be followed as it is dangerous and wrong in the reviewers opinion. You then said that the description is exactly what Dave has in his book...? Uh, yes. That is how the reviewer was able to counter it.... not really sure what you meant here. It comes across as if you are endorsing Dave's method of gripping, in the face of the very text you quote.
As to your comprehension, as you have seen fit to question mine, I suggested that you should view the stories of divine inspiration and origin of Japanese martial traditions as metaphorical stories about serious, often solo, training in order to get something out of them that you can relate to. I did not say that that was the way they are presented, so you missed my actual words there... and really, what on earth does that youtube clip have to do with anything we are discussing here? A conspiracy writer talking about his books? I really have no idea how this is relevant, as it has nothing to do with our discussion. You are losing me completely.
You are not starting at the beginning. You are starting in the middle, and explaining the differences between the various ryu-ha approaches is going to frankly be over your head. And that is how this thead started, with you asking about a particular practitioners approach, with no context for us to know you are actually asking about his weapon in order to make one for your cousin (this is not a good source for you to look at for that, by the way).
To start at the beginning would be to walk into a sword school, pick up a bokken, and start training. But I don't think that really interests you at all. So don't. Stick to your MMA, if that's what you want. But I will finish by saying that all the good bokken I have ever seen are created by practitioners of the sword arts, and if you are going to make them, get some experience under your belt. Otherwise I don't predict much success for your work.
But to make one thing absolutely clear... I in no way have been disparaging of any interest in swordsmanship. In fact, quite the opposite, I have been trying to help point you in a direction where you could actually gain some knowledge.
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kaizasosei
Master Black Belt
Ummm, thettle down Beavis...get a grip, ahh haa haa,ha ah hahah.
j
j
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Yeah, my apologies. Bad day. Don't get mad and type, I guess...
kaizasosei
Master Black Belt
tell me about it...i'd like to think it happens to the best of us from time to time, if one is not careful....
'plus the video is probably all 'special defects'- ahhahaha ahhhhha hahaha
Sorry late in editing, but on a serious note, i think that a too narrow grip is bad for the sword, because when swung the momentum puts too much stress on the internal parts of the sword, that is especially if you are just cutting air.
-.
'plus the video is probably all 'special defects'- ahhahaha ahhhhha hahaha
Sorry late in editing, but on a serious note, i think that a too narrow grip is bad for the sword, because when swung the momentum puts too much stress on the internal parts of the sword, that is especially if you are just cutting air.
-.
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Actually, I read your posts more accurately than you write them!
Dont worry, you'll be fine as soon as you get over this nutty idea that my interests have to conform to your exclusive preferences.
Look forward to it as a liberating experience!
