Kukkiwon usage of honorifics and grade

[Daniel Sullivan]

A lot has been made on a good number of threads regarding time in grade, the honorifics for first dan students, and what a first dan should represent.

I would like to know the following:

• What is the Korean word which the Kukkiwon applies to first dan students which is being rendered as 'master' in English?
• To any of you who know, how is that honorific used in Korea and is it used outside of taekwondo or the martial arts?
• What level of mastery/proficiency is expected of a first dan from the perspective of Kukkiwon seniors?
• For those who are familiar with the one year first dan students in Korea, how does their technical ability compare to first dan students in the US who may take anywhere from two to five years to reach first dan?

I am posting this because I would like to actually know the answer to the questions, not to provide people with an outlet for org bashing, so if you cannot contribute or participate politely, then please refrain from posting.

Thank you

 

[dancingalone]

• What level of mastery/proficiency is expected of a first dan from the perspective of Kukkiwon seniors?
• For those who are familiar with the one year first dan students in Korea, how does their technical ability compare to first dan students in the US who may take anywhere from two to five years to reach first dan?

I have no idea personally what the answers are to these questions, but these videos from a test in Busan have been posted before. You can see the candidates performing poomsae and doing some light sparring.


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[mastercole]

A lot has been made on a good number of threads regarding time in grade, the honorifics for first dan students, and what a first dan should represent.

I would like to know the following:

• What is the Korean word which the Kukkiwon applies to first dan students which is being rendered as 'master' in English?

My sources for the following information are: Kukkiwon Instructors Course, World Taekwondo Federation old website question and answer message board, Kyong Myong Lee's books, e-mail from Kyong Myong Lee and other pioneers.


1st Dan in Korean language is literally "Ill Dan" and falls into the general category of "yudanja" which is literally "holder dan person." Kodanja would be 5th Dan up. All Dan holders wear a solid black belt according to Kukkiwon standard

1st Poom in Korean language is literally "Ill Poom" and fall into the general category of "yupoomja" which is literally "holder poom person." 1st Poom DOES NOT wear a black belt according to Kukkiwon standard

Other than that, Kukkiwon does not have a specific Korean language honorific for either yundanja, yupoomja or kodanja. However, they do have a specific honorific attached to these terms for English language speakers. "Yudanja and yupoomja = Master (same as Mister/Miss), Kodanja= Grandmaster (same as Sir/ma'm), neither term mean Sabum.

That said Korean language speakers will refer to each other with various honorifics of courtesy and respect that do not fit in to the English language well. A younger Korean might refer to a much older Korea who may, or may not even be a martial artist as Sabumnim, Hyung, Hyungnim, etc, depending on the circumstance and subject of the conversation. This confuses English speakers.

• To any of you who know, how is that honorific used in Korea and is it used outside of taekwondo or the martial arts?

See my above comment.

• What level of mastery/proficiency is expected of a first dan from the perspective of Kukkiwon seniors?

1) From capable practitioners it would be correctness of basic motions, poomsae, sparring skill, breaking, jung shin, attitude, appearance, be on time for the test, submit an application approve by your Kukkiwon certified instructor.

2) From practitioners not as capable, the best they can do in accord with the above.

3) From practitioners from some non-Kukkiwon form of Taekwondo any "Dan transfer" would based on trust and agreement to strive for their best in accord with #1 above.

4) From supporters of Taekwondo, a record of strong support to the growth and development and the recommendation of a leader of Taekwondo.

• For those who are familiar with the one year first dan students in Korea, how does their technical ability compare to first dan students in the US who may take anywhere from two to five years to reach first dan?

I have sat and watch poom and dan testing at Kukkiwon and I have sat and watched/judged geup, poom and dan test around different states in the USA and other nations, to many in fact.

At all testings, you see various levels of proficiency, however at the Kukkiwon, there were more Taekwondoin at high levels of proficiency. Something you only find occasionally in other nations, however, a fair share of those testing for the 1st poom and dan at Kukkiwon looked on equal level with the general testing populations I have seen outside of Korea.

I am posting this because I would like to actually know the answer to the questions, not to provide people with an outlet for org bashing, so if you cannot contribute or participate politely, then please refrain from posting.

Thank you

 

[TKDinAK]

Wow. OK... I train in an ITF school... and I have no clue what Patterns/Forms/Poomsae are supposed to look like in the WTF/Kukkiwon. That said... the movements in those vids look very, very uninspired. Very little power and all the students are off time from one another.

No offense meant to those performing... because admittedly, I'm ignorant concerning these forms and testing qualifications... but I would like to know others opinions. Are these forms/poomsae in the vids above considered BB level of performance?

 

[dancingalone]

Wow. OK... I train in an ITF school... and I have no clue what Patterns/Forms/Poomsae are supposed to look like in the WTF/Kukkiwon. That said... the movements in those vids look very, very uninspired. Very little power and all the students are off time from one another.

No offense meant to those performing... because admittedly, I'm ignorant concerning these forms and testing qualifications... but I would like to know others opinions. Are these forms/poomsae in the vids above considered BB level of performance?

They don't look unlike many BBs in commerical American dojang. It's not my preference, but it's been expressed many times that 1st dan should be considered a low rank, and following that guideline, these students look fine. Hopefully they'll stick with it and they will progress at whatever rate their natural ability permits them.

 

[mastercole]

I have no idea personally what the answers are to these questions, but these videos from a test in Busan have been posted before. You can see the candidates performing poomsae and doing some light sparring.

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Interesting video. I am not sure what that was exactly though it appeared to be a testing of mostly "foreigner" students. I know that some instructors will take there students and test them personally in Korea, but they can not have them officially tested at the Kukkiwon, unless the student has proof of residency in Korea for at least 6 months. I have tested some of my students in Korea, but was not permitted to have those without 6 months of residency officially tested by the Kukkiwon. If I brought over a large group, I could test them at a gym with the help of some seniors, but I would have to sign the application and had submit it myself and could do a belt presentation myself at the Kukkiwon if I like.

So I don't know about that video. I have seem massive testings at Kukkiwon, but if I recall correctly, they all wore hogu and did actual sparring, and broke tiles as well. I think all persons living in Korea, and Korean citizens, must take the official physical test at Kukkiwon. I don't if that testing was official.

 

[ATC]

Wow. OK... I train in an ITF school... and I have no clue what Patterns/Forms/Poomsae are supposed to look like in the WTF/Kukkiwon. That said... the movements in those vids look very, very uninspired. Very little power and all the students are off time from one another.

No offense meant to those performing... because admittedly, I'm ignorant concerning these forms and testing qualifications... but I would like to know others opinions. Are these forms/poomsae in the vids above considered BB level of performance?

Yes I would have to agree with you. I am KKW certified 3rd Dan and those were some pretty pathetic forms. Very week and sloppy. I am very surprised as we here in the states always hear how everything is better in Korea.

With that said we have had a few students that moved from Korea that joined our dojang and I was surprised at their level of skill. Surprised or should I say disappointed. They did not live up to my expectation knowing that they were from Korea and did not impress at all.

 

[mastercole]

Wow. OK... I train in an ITF school... and I have no clue what Patterns/Forms/Poomsae are supposed to look like in the WTF/Kukkiwon. That said... the movements in those vids look very, very uninspired. Very little power and all the students are off time from one another.

No offense meant to those performing... because admittedly, I'm ignorant concerning these forms and testing qualifications... but I would like to know others opinions. Are these forms/poomsae in the vids above considered BB level of performance?

I agree, it's not the most inspiring technical example of Taekwondo and of course I personally would like to see a higher level of skill like I would for all Taekwondoin, but 1st Dan is very low rank and not an usually an expert. The goal is that if they do get the 1st dan that it inspires them to continue on and improve. But there Sabumnim is the true judge of that, I really don't know anything about how hard they worked, or what potential they have.

 

[dancingalone]

Interesting video. I am not sure what that was exactly though it appeared to be a testing of mostly "foreigner" students.

<shrugs> I see more Asian faces than Caucasian. You would be the expert though on KKW testing regs.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

[/LIST]1st Dan in Korean language is literally "Ill Dan" and falls into the general category of "yudanja" which is literally "holder dan person." Kodanja would be 5th Dan up. All Dan holders wear a solid black belt according to Kukkiwon standard

1st Poom in Korean language is literally "Ill Poom" and fall into the general category of "yupoomja" which is literally "holder poom person." 1st Poom DOES NOT wear a black belt according to Kukkiwon standard

Other than that, Kukkiwon does not have a specific Korean language honorific for either yundanja, yupoomja or kodanja. However, they do have a specific honorific attached to these terms for English language speakers. "Yudanja and yupoomja = Master (same as Mister/Miss), Kodanja= Grandmaster (same as Sir/ma'm), neither term mean Sabum.

I am curious as to why they chose to use the term, 'master' given the connotations that it has to English speakers, particularly in the martial arts. Not criticizing it, but I am curious. Certainly, they had to know that doing so would potentially raise more than a few eyebrows.

Also, the term, master, in the sense that they are using it (same as mister or miss) is actually masculine, with mistress being the feminine term. Though I can see where they may wish to use master in a gender neutral way, given that mistress would raise more eyebrows than master.

I am not critical; it is the honorific that the organzition is associating with first through third (?) dan practitioners.

Given that they are trying to convey mister/miss/mrs., why not simply use those designations?

 

[mastercole]

Yes I would have to agree with you. I am KKW certified 3rd Dan and those were some pretty pathetic forms. Very week and sloppy. I am very surprised as we here in the states always hear how everything is better in Korea.

It appears they were "foreigners", not Korean citizens. Compared to a National Poomsae Team members, Poomsae, they were weak and sloppy. But then most practitioners Poomsae compared to National Team members Poomsae might be considered the same.

With that said we have had a few students that moved from Korea that joined our dojang and I was surprised at their level of skill. Surprised or should I say disappointed. They did not live up to my expectation knowing that they were from Korea and did not impress at all.

I have had Korean and other foreign practitioners come to our dojang to train for a few days, or stay for a year, or more. Some were no so skilled, some average, some amazing. That said, the most amazing have been those who trained on university teams in Korea. Never met a less than amazing one of those.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have no idea personally what the answers are to these questions, but these videos from a test in Busan have been posted before. You can see the candidates performing poomsae and doing some light sparring.


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This is about what I'd expect from students going to class twice a week and practicing some outside of class after a year of training in the entirety of the geub level material.

 

[mastercole]

<shrugs> I see more Asian faces than Caucasian. You would be the expert though on KKW testing regs.

English speaking people doing filming appeared to calling the Asian boy with the glasses, Adam. The testing referee was using all hand signals and pointing and guiding the participants who appeared not to understand Korean. But actually I don't know if that was official or not, it might have been, but it just did not appear to be official to me, from what I have experienced.

 

[dancingalone]

English speaking people doing filming appeared to calling the Asian boy with the glasses, Adam. The testing referee was using all hand signals and pointing and guiding the participants who appeared not to understand Korean. But actually I don't know if that was official or not, it might have been, but it just did not appear to be official to me, from what I have experienced.

I'm counting Mr. Glasses as a westerner. I'm more looking at the people further in the back as well as the other groups not in the primary focus of the filmers. They look Asian to me. I count maybe 3-4 westerners tops in those videos, at least going by appearance solely.

This is unimportant to me however. If you don't think this was an official KKW testing, who am I to say differently?

 

[Twin Fist]

if my students looked like that testing for intermediate rank, i would fail them on the spot, that was crap from start to finish. No balance, no power, no spirit. That was horrible for even ONE year of training. This just vindicated my feelings on this matter.

 

[mastercole]

I am curious as to why they chose to use the term, 'master' given the connotations that it has to English speakers, particularly in the martial arts. Not criticizing it, but I am curious. Certainly, they had to know that doing so would potentially raise more than a few eyebrows.

I'm not sure exactly why, I can guess that their application of the word is as a noun, verses as an adjective or verb as "yudanja" and "kodanja" refer to the person, I assume a noun. But, I only know what I learned from them by example and in writing. They called everyone at the course "master" even 1st dan and up. They told us that if we can pass the test, then they will consider us as qualified Sabum's (instructors). They gave out graduation awards to 1st Dan's and up that had the honorific "Master" before their name.

Also, the term, master, in the sense that they are using it (same as mister or miss) is actually masculine, with mistress being the feminine term. Though I can see where they may wish to use master in a gender neutral way, given that mistress would raise more eyebrows than master.

Titles in Korean language are different. Example: Seonsang-nim has "nim" which is a courtesy add on term for a man. Seonsang-nim is generally used for a school teacher, but also applies to women school teachers. Korean language like Korean society, is male dominant, and does not address this issue in the exact same way we do in the USA or possible UK. English though is THE International language. American and UK customs don't always apply. Today American women are on equal footing with men and our language and honorifics have mostly been adjusted to reflect this. This is not so in most of the rest of the world that uses English as an international language.

I am not critical; it is the honorific that the organzition is associating with first through third (?) dan practitioners.

1st through 5th = master (yudanja) 6th through 9th grandmaster (kodanja). And I do not think you are being critical.

Given that they are trying to convey mister/miss/mrs., why not simply use those designations?

I'm not sure, but it's a good idea. Actually at one time there was sort of a movement with in the old USTU to do away with "master" and "grandmaster" as honorifics, but that was within our small pond in the USA.

 

[mastercole]

I'm counting Mr. Glasses as a westerner. I'm more looking at the people further in the back as well as the other groups not in the primary focus of the filmers. They look Asian to me. I count maybe 3-4 westerners tops in those videos, at least going by appearance solely.

This is unimportant to me however. If you don't think this was an official KKW testing, who am I to say differently?

It's not that I don't think it was, I don't know for sure.

 

[MSUTKD]

Twin,

I have seen videos that you have posted and I could say the same thing. I have also seen a black belt test at the kukkiwon and although it was about 300 kids the skill was average; every now and then I saw an amazing one. The high school teams in Korean are very skilled and stunning to see as are collegiate ones.

Just like our country most just do this as something fun and that is okay.

 

[mastercole]

if my students looked like that testing for intermediate rank, i would fail them on the spot, that was crap from start to finish. No balance, no power, no spirit. That was horrible for even ONE year of training. This just vindicated my feelings on this matter.

Well, then no reason to keep hiding your greatness from us, please, in the name of altruism and by all means, bring your fantastic self and your superior students to our events so we can all mix in and learn from your wonderful ability. You have the invite and the chance to change the Taekwondo world. Come teach us, that would be exciting, I know I am always in search of such greatness and most others are too.

 

[Twin Fist]

ron, they were, lets say this again, BLACKBELT candidates.

simple question.

would you have passed any of them for BLACK BELT?

cuz i wouldnt. I would pass them for BLUE, much less black.


And the vids i posted years ago? those were all BEGINNERS, with less than a year of training. And thier power, balance and spirit FAR exceeded what those BLACKBELT candidates showed. And my students at the level you saw them? i wouldnt have passed THEM for blue either.