Kote Gaeshi

[Yari]

Kinda hard to do the topic justice via a forum but I'll give it a go.

I agree...

When doing the lock in a three dimensional circular motion the knees of uke, particularly the knee on the same side as the wrist being locked, comes forward and down very harshly.

When I try and visualise this i get the picture that your "pushing" the fingers into his arm.

/Yari

 

[morph4me]

Kinda hard to do the topic justice via a forum but I'll give it a go.

When doing the lock in a three dimensional circular motion the knees of uke, particularly the knee on the same side as the wrist being locked, comes forward and down very harshly. (There is more than just the knee but too much for words.) This motion makes doing a flip impossible, the body simply cannot go that direction, unless tori relents and allows the flip to happen.

IMO, the technique changed over time to allow the flip to happen for safer training, not effectiveness. Unfortunately there are not many that know how to properly manipulate the wrist. Heck there are not that many folks that understand which direction uke's balance must be disturbed in to successfully apply the lock.

Take care,

Mark J.

Very true, I've ben thrown where the only thing that helped was that Nage was kind enough to slowed down enough to allow me to straighten my knee slightly and sit, sort of. I haven't seen this type of Kotegaeshi in too many aikido dojo's as it's usually the result of a small action and not the sweeping arm that you see most often.

 

[Mark Jakabcsin]

When I try and visualise this i get the picture that your "pushing" the fingers into his arm.

/Yari

No, not pushing into the arm.

Visualize the hand, uke's, as a ball with the wrist on one side of the ball and the knuckles as the other end of a ball and a very finite point in the palm is the center of the ball. Now the ball is rotated around the center so the center point does not move in relation to uke/tori but the edges of the ball (wrist/knuckles) rotate around the center point. This is good circular motion and the smaller the better, meaning if the center point moves in space the circular motion becomes oval at best and most likely linear, it reduces the affect. The tighter the circle (think and feel three dimensional here) the better.

Another way to describe this is to think of tori's hands on the outside of the ball described above with the ring finger(s) in uke's wrist and the thumb(s) on uke's ring finger knuckle (shortest tendon on this finger so it reduces the amount of slack). Now keeping the ball in one place rotate it so the edges of the ball change places, i.e. the thumb rotates across the top of the ball then goes down and under while the ring finger rotates towards tori and up until then continues up around the ball and back towards uke. Notice that the thumb and ring fingers are 180 degrees out of phase. As one is going up the other is going down but the center remains the same. Visualize how such a motion transmits into uke's body (think basic geometry here).

Now to make it more verbally challenging; as you do this three dimensional circle do not do it straight back into ukes forearm/elbow but at an angle (about 30-45 degrees) to the outside of the forearm. If you can follow this description the affect on uke's ankle, knee, hip, shoulder, elbow, etc are rather profound. Remember to keep the circle small (Not the big motion morph4me mentioned).

Finally, joint locks such as kote gaeshi are to exploit a balance distrubance not to create one. Understanding this is key in being able to actually apply locks to non-compliant uke's. That and knowing which locks match each direction of balance distrubance.

Enjoy,

Mark J.

PS. One last hint. Tori, should never squeeze his hands. The hand should be in a comfortable 'C' shape throughout the technique, which mantains the correct shapes needed above and allows tori's arms to stay relaxed. Once tori squeezes his hands the shapes (ball & circles) are lost and the tension in tori's arms make it very difficult to move properly. The power comes from the hips. Although to be honest if applied with the correct balance distrubance it takes a minimum amount of power.

 

[Yari]

Hey

Thanks!

/Yari

 

[theletch1]

Seems like the closer to nages' hara the technique is done the greater the possibility of doing it that way. When you allow uke to drift away from you just a little and end up doing the technique with your arms slightly extended from your own body you almost have to go with the slightly oval motion to make the throw effective. If your elbows are tight to your sides and the back of ukes' hand is right up against your obi then the motion needed to effect the type of "drop" you're talking about just seems to happen. Having said all that I'll say that I've always seen it as more of ukes' feet just flying out from under him with, perhaps, a slight drop of the hip on the side that the throw is being done on.

 

[zDom]

... in my opinion and in my definition, if uke has the ability/option to 'flip' out of the technique it has not been accomplished correctly. Period!

I'm thinking the late GGM Lee Hyung Park, who established our hapkido curriculum, believed the same thing as we don't "flip" out of this particular technique as uke; we tap out.

 

[Saitama Steve]

In one of the ryuha of jujutsu I train in, kote gaeshi is done in two seperate methods. These methods are related to situation, garments worn and other factors.

The concept taught to me for kote gaeshi in Japan was the "chain principle", pretty much like the old "Dem bones" song: wrist to forearm, forearm to elbow, elbow to upper arm, upper arm to shoulder, shoulder to shoulderblade.

If the wrist is manipulated at the correct angle, locking the joints, muscles, tendons and ligaments, the arm acts like a chain that has been twisted too many times and there is no more flexibility to it.

As with aikido there is an irimi (Linear & entering) method and a kaiten (rotational) method (We don't really use these terms officially, but they are sometimes used in the dojo) that are used both defensively and offensively (torite type techniques, where you use offensive tactics to either subdue an assailant or ambush an enemy)

One of the main points is to always have the joint manipulated and pointing to the rear of the enemy, never just to the side or in front of him.

In kata-geiko, there are a couple of instances where it is used. In jiyu-geiko, it's utilized from anything - lapel grabs, wrist grabs, hair grabs, throat grabs, etc. Anything to develop nyunanshin (A pliable or flexible mind).

Nigirigata (gripping method) varies from ryuha to ryuha in koryu jujutsu. The same goes for aikido. One of the more orthodox methods of gripping for kote is to wrap the fingers around the meaty part of the thumb side of the hand and put the thumb along the line between the knuckles of the ring finger and little finger, followed by using the palm of the other hand to either strike the back of the gripped hand at the knuckles or apply pressure, depending upon application.

Yoshinkan Aikido Instructional Video on Kote-Gaeshi in Japanese

Aikikai Instructional Video on Kote-Gaeshi with Ueshiba Moriteru

Other gripping methods are sometimes used in jujutsu and related forms of budo (e.g. Kodokan Judo). A common variant is having the four fingers of each hand around the meat of the enemy's thumb and palm of the hand with both thumbs on the carpal bone leading up to the middle finger.


Click on link to see photo of this gripping method.


A more destructive version I have seen and felt before is where the orthodox grip is taken as in Aikikai aikido (Thumb in between the carpal bones of the little and ring finger with the fingers around the meat of the thumb) while using the forearm and elbow across the wrist.

Yet another variation found in classical jujutsu is kashiwade kote gaeshi, but this is usually done from a wristgrab as a tenuki or tehodoki (Releasing from grabs)

In koryu jujutsu, almost every ryuha has a particular way of doing certain techniques that is individual to them. Sometimes the technique is done in such a way, that a large aerial ukemi as performed in aikido cannot be done.

 

[orang_baik]

for multiple kote gaeshi i think you should get that from shorinji kempo instead.
<SOL>

 

[Saitama Steve]

for multiple kote gaeshi i think you should get that from shorinji kempo instead.
<SOL>

You'll find a good number of variations in Shorinji kempo, however most of these also exist in aikido and in koryu jujutsu.

In fact, according to a lecturer at Tokai University Busen, So-Doshin, the founder of SK, studied Hakko-ryu jujutsu under Oyukama Ryuho and reached the rank of nidan before founding SK. Other texts also mention this.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=81

At the end of the day, there are only so many ways to twist, turn and manipulate the joints of the human body regardless of the form of martial art. Since this is a jujutsu thread, we're focusing on jujutsu.

 

[orang_baik]

Agreed...

Hakko ryu is from Daito Ryu consists many wrist lock technique (sometimes even more painful than jujutsu itself)

 

[Saitama Steve]

Agreed...

Hakko ryu is from Daito Ryu consists many wrist lock technique (sometimes even more painful than jujutsu itself)

Well seeing as Daito-ryu and Hakko-ryu are actually forms of jujutsu, (albeit Takeda Sokaku decided to coin his system "aikijujutsu") it's rather a moot point.

 

[theletch1]

Well seeing as Daito-ryu and Hakko-ryu are actually forms of jujutsu, (albeit Takeda Sokaku decided to coin his system "aikijujutsu") it's rather a moot point.

How does it become a moot point? Because they are both branches of the same parent art?

 

[Saitama Steve]

How does it become a moot point? Because they are both branches of the same parent art?

Because it's all jujutsu at the end of the day. Different schools have different interpretations is all.

 

[orang_baik]

i've learnt jujutsu and aikijujutsu

from my opinion there is different feeling when u train both of them

jujutsu is more like technical
while aikijujutsu is more like philosophical

 

[Saitama Steve]

i've learnt jujutsu and aikijujutsu

from my opinion there is different feeling when u train both of them

jujutsu is more like technical
while aikijujutsu is more like philosophical

I have studied both disciplines also.

Both are very technical and both also have a stong philosophical basis. Of course this depends on the system you have studied.