Kote Gaeshi

Keikai

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I am interested in how different styles do Kote Gaeshi. More particuarly the exact mechanics of the how the lock is executed on the wrist.

Is the wrist being twisted around an axis through the middle finger or an axis down the forearm? Many instances that I have seen rotate around the forearm. How is yours done?
 

morph4me

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I am interested in how different styles do Kote Gaeshi. More particuarly the exact mechanics of the how the lock is executed on the wrist.

Is the wrist being twisted around an axis through the middle finger or an axis down the forearm? Many instances that I have seen rotate around the forearm. How is yours done?

It's a combination, I hold the hand to my center and turn my body and lay uke's little finger alongside the forearm along the radius.
 

cstanley

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I am interested in how different styles do Kote Gaeshi. More particuarly the exact mechanics of the how the lock is executed on the wrist.

Is the wrist being twisted around an axis through the middle finger or an axis down the forearm? Many instances that I have seen rotate around the forearm. How is yours done?

You can do it either way. Kote gaeshi is so generic that it is difficult to define it in just one way. Most jujutsu ryu tend to go for immediate pain in the wrist or forearm and drop the guy as quickly and as close as possible. Aikidoka use it along with mis-direction to set up a projection. The principle of kote gaeshi is employed in a dozen or more techniques (uchi mawari, shiho nage, te kugami, etc.)
 
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Keikai

Keikai

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Hi Dale

Get my email? Did you ever finish those notes on the pressure points?

We do a wrist twist with the rotation across the back of the hand. This leads to the attacker being driven virtually straight down onto their back. I have seen Kote Gaeshi done so the attacker basically jumps over their forearm because the rotation changes from the hand to along the forearm - hence the name Kote Gaeshi - Forearm Overturning.

It certainly looks spectacular when done in Aikido but I wonder how much of a "throw" would happen when the attacker does not know how to fall. The technique would certainly take them to the ground but I doubt the nice flip.
 

cstanley

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Hi Dale

Get my email? Did you ever finish those notes on the pressure points?

We do a wrist twist with the rotation across the back of the hand. This leads to the attacker being driven virtually straight down onto their back. I have seen Kote Gaeshi done so the attacker basically jumps over their forearm because the rotation changes from the hand to along the forearm - hence the name Kote Gaeshi - Forearm Overturning.

It certainly looks spectacular when done in Aikido but I wonder how much of a "throw" would happen when the attacker does not know how to fall. The technique would certainly take them to the ground but I doubt the nice flip.

That's the point. The "flip" in aikido is to protect yourself from the wrist technique. I've often told aikido guys, who talk about peace and harmony and not hurting anybody, that if they did the techniques on someone in the street who did not know how to "flip" that person would be seriously injured.
 

morph4me

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That's the point. The "flip" in aikido is to protect yourself from the wrist technique. I've often told aikido guys, who talk about peace and harmony and not hurting anybody, that if they did the techniques on someone in the street who did not know how to "flip" that person would be seriously injured.

Agreed, the techniques of aikido are designed to break and/or dislocate joints. The reason you see the flips and nice falls is because uke is protecting himself. Kote Gaeshi will break the wrist of someone who doesn't go with it and know how to fall properly.
 

cstanley

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Agreed, the techniques of aikido are designed to break and/or dislocate joints. The reason you see the flips and nice falls is because uke is protecting himself. Kote Gaeshi will break the wrist of someone who doesn't go with it and know how to fall properly.

I have a friend who is a senior in aikido under Kanai Sensei. I asked him once, "What is the simplest way to explain the difference between aikido and jujutsu?" He thought for a minute and said, "If you want to do jujutsu, just do everything your aikido instructor tells you not to do.":D
 

MarkBarlow

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We've got 3 different ways of doing kote gaeshi in Akayama Ryu and lots of variations including small circle and large circle. The opportunity to use it may not happen as often as some instructors think but when it's used correctly, it's very effective, especially against someone who tries to resist it.
 
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Keikai

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You look to have much the same opinion of the technique as myself. effective but not in the way that it is trained. I tend to think of Kote Gaeshi as the takedown version of our Tekubi Hineri - wrist twist. If I drive through the lock and let it go so the attacker is driven to the ground without retaining the lock as an immobilisation.

While Tekubi Hineri and Kote Gaeshi start the same and the hand position is the same on the attacker's hand the end of the technique is different.

The main point I am trying to establish is what axis of rotation do you all use when doing what refer to as Kote Gaeshi. Some schools refer to Kote Gaeshi when rotating around the axis through the hand (to me a wrist twist) and others have the axis through the length of the forearm. A number of ju jutsu schools use the Aikido terminology Kote Gaeshi for a wrsit twist but are in fact doing a full wrist twist.
 

Yari

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We do a lot of different variations in the Jujitsu and Aikido styles that I practice.

The twist of the hand, with the middel finger as an axsis to using bending the wrist and twisting. Even in these you can choose to use open hands or close your hand around ukes hand/fingers.

Another difference, is either "pulling" the kotegaeshi or psuhing the kotegaeshi. Really depending on what I want to happen to uke.


/yari
 

theletch1

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Ikkyo and Sankyo combined, ah, the pain.:fanboy: I generally think of it in it's most basic form as using the middle finger as the axis on an imaginary circle through uke's wrist all the way around and back up into my center. I never really think of kote gaeshi as an immobilization. I tend to think of it as a quick and efficient way to mete out a spiral fracture of the wrist and a nice little dislocation of the elbow. Keeping the wrist centered at your hara (As pointed out by Morph) makes this technique absolutely devastating. Me, I'm a little evil (how's that for an aikido-ka) and always like to have a little extra trick for those folks with really gumby like wrists. As you roll the hand over for kote gaeshi maintain the grip with the outside hand and reach under uke's forearm with the hand closest to his elbow and turn it into a combination of kote gaeshi and shiho nage.
 

cstanley

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We use a technique from Hakko ryu called "uchi mawari." You get to it in one of several ways like Sankyo. Grasping the back of uke's hand with your hand with the last 3 fingers holding the meaty part of his hand below the little finger and the thumb on the knuckle of his pinkie. We do not force the elbow upward as in sankyo. We rotate his forearm toward his body while bending the wrist upward and inward so that our index finger points towards his armpit. We step away slightly in order to keep a nice bow in his arm at about shoulder level. This is extremely painful if done properly. From here it is very easy to move to one of several throws or takedowns, often niho nage or some kind of "arm whip."
 

theletch1

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We use a technique from Hakko ryu called "uchi mawari." You get to it in one of several ways like Sankyo. Grasping the back of uke's hand with your hand with the last 3 fingers holding the meaty part of his hand below the little finger and the thumb on the knuckle of his pinkie. We do not force the elbow upward as in sankyo. We rotate his forearm toward his body while bending the wrist upward and inward so that our index finger points towards his armpit. We step away slightly in order to keep a nice bow in his arm at about shoulder level. This is extremely painful if done properly. From here it is very easy to move to one of several throws or takedowns, often niho nage or some kind of "arm whip."
Sounds very much like the technique we call "Handshake" in Nihon Goshin Aikido. It's downright brutal but very controlable. Throws, takedowns, locks can all flow from that one and you can still keep uke in pain while flowing from one to the other.
 
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Keikai

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Up until recently I always considered the axis of rotation for a wrist twist to be along the middle finger. It is I believe a little more subtle than that.

For a wrist twist to work well there are four points to note.
1) The wrist is bent at a right angle to the forearm
2) The hand is tilted around 10 degrees off the vertical
3) The defender's hands are placed so that one pulls on the thumb side of the attacker's hand with most of the force being applied with the last two fingers at the base of the thumb at the wrist join. The other hand applies a pushing force to the area just below the knuckles of the ring and little fingers. This can be done in a number of ways including open hand and forearm pushing
4) The axis of rotation is then along a line from the knuckle of the index finger to the wrist join.

The plane of the rotation is then angle sharply to the ground and the attacker has no place to go but down and down hard.

Once the attacker is unbalanced not much goes wrong but for those annoying times there is always the methods previously described to deal with the attacker's reluctance to be co-operative and just get hurt.
 

Mark Jakabcsin

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IMO, if you want to know if Kote Gaeshi is effective look at the effect on uke's knees. When done with 3 dimensional, circular rotation with minimal power from the hips, uke's knees buckle and collapse. Likewise, in my opinion and in my definition, if uke has the ability/option to 'flip' out of the technique it has not been accomplished correctly. Period!

One of the keys to any joint technique is understanding when it is available to apply. Attempt to apply a joint technique when the posture has not been disturbed or disturbed in the wrong direction and it will fail every time....unless uke is trained to 'flip' no matter what.

Mark J.
 

kempo-vjj

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Anybody use this for striking? As in place wrist into locking position and then punching that hand while in lock? truelly nasty destruction. Yes the takedowns are pretty, some submissions if your lucky to find them. Depending on the situation I find snapping and moving on better for self defense.
 

Darth F.Takeda

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Anybody use this for striking? As in place wrist into locking position and then punching that hand while in lock? truelly nasty destruction. Yes the takedowns are pretty, some submissions if your lucky to find them. Depending on the situation I find snapping and moving on better for self defense.

We have a varient where you look on the Kote Giash and then hit it with a shuto strike, but you can snap the wrist without the strike.

You can also set up knock outs with kotegiash.
When you put it on but dont snap through, the uke tends to lean to that side, this angle improves your knock out ability. Kotegiash and shoto the carted or back fist the temple and they go out like a light.

I like compound Kote Giash he most for wrist destruction.
 

Mark Jakabcsin

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Could you elaborate on this?

/Yari


Kinda hard to do the topic justice via a forum but I'll give it a go.

When doing the lock in a three dimensional circular motion the knees of uke, particularly the knee on the same side as the wrist being locked, comes forward and down very harshly. (There is more than just the knee but too much for words.) This motion makes doing a flip impossible, the body simply cannot go that direction, unless tori relents and allows the flip to happen.

IMO, the technique changed over time to allow the flip to happen for safer training, not effectiveness. Unfortunately there are not many that know how to properly manipulate the wrist. Heck there are not that many folks that understand which direction uke's balance must be disturbed in to successfully apply the lock.

Take care,

Mark J.
 

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