Kong Soo Do's Rank

[Master Dan]

Is two what you call a number of certificates from distant instructors?

I'm not sure why you are unfamiliar with 'rank for recognition'. Just like the KKW relies upon the individual instructor in promotions, and recognizes them at a certain rank under their banner, so did the WIF.



I have certificates from my instructor(s) in TKD/HKD (now called KSD) as well as my instructor-only L.E. specialty certificates from the regional training center where I was an adjunct instructor. And one from G.B. when I belonged to that organization.

I am critical of 'some' TKD/HKD promotional practices. And with good reason.

I found it interesting that in Tiwan non of them test and ask for KKW rank beyond 1st Dan just enough to qualify for WTF competion rules after that it is all thier own KwanJang certifications. They do not wish to support KKW financially I would like to know if Ernie Reyes Senior with his own Kwan West Coast Kwan only uses his own certification for students? or has a dual promotion method ?

 

[Archtkd]

Is two what you call a number of certificates from distant instructors?

I'm not sure why you are unfamiliar with 'rank for recognition'. Just like the KKW relies upon the individual instructor in promotions, and recognizes them at a certain rank under their banner, so did the WIF.

I'm not familiar with what you are saying. I've personally not met any Kukkiwon certified taekwondo master instructor who has recommended someone who they have not trained or physically tested (in taekwondo) for Kukkiwon certification, especially at the master level (4th Dan and up). I'm not saying it never happens, but I've never seen it myself, and do not endorse it. I can see how this type of belt promotion might be applied in efforts to complete Kukkiwon taekwondo kwan unification and get more people involved in WTF competition, but I don't understand why you, an independent operator, would pursue that path.

 

[Steve]

True data can be interpreted in many ways but your analogy if chocloate is my point you only have to look at how much is the world wide sales of chocholate and the amount of people who say it taste good would in fact make that a fact in the majority.

Even if 99 people out of 100 prefer chocolate, it's still an opinion. There is no such thing as "fact in the majority." That's nonsense.

You are young and have a very narrow experience espeacially internationally.

Really? How do you know this? Tell me more about myself... about how young and inexperienced I am.

typical example in one culture one art I was teaching just above the Arctic Circle there are many retired Koean martial artists in Alaska when one learned I was a master he came to me and wanted his hip fixed I looked at him and he said well in Korea any Judo club would know how to fix that he was right? Its ok for you to say I don't know don't want to learn but again making the broad statement for every one globaly every style? good luck with that as my Eskimo relatives would say when they want to get stubborn and not listen I HAVE NO EARS!!

I have never said that it was common or uncommon. What I did say is that you can pair just about anything and that healing is an adjunct to martial arts training (just as martial arts would be an adjunct to healing arts.) Chocolate and Peanut Butter. Healing arts and Martial Arts. Beer and Peanuts. Associating two things doesn't make them the same. While I might enjoy a cigar with a nice glass of single malt scotch, I can smoke the cigar without the scotch or drink the scotch without smoking a cigar.

Look, you can choose to be patronizing and condescending. That's up to you. But I'd recommend getting a handle on the difference between an opinion and a fact and then re-read your last couple of posts.

“The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd.” - Bertrand Russell

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'm not familiar with what you are saying. I've personally not met any Kukkiwon certified taekwondo master instructor who has recommend someone they've not trained or physically tested (in taekwondo) and recommend that person for Kukkiwon certification, especially at the master level (4th Dan and up). I'm not saying it never happened, but I've never seen it myself.

I think the key here is the highlighted phrase. While you may not have personally met (or have met without knowing the details of their ranking?) such a person, they certainly exist. KKW materials posted here in the past, as well as comments from individuals holding high Dan ranks make it clear that the KKW has long endorsed "assimilation" ranking; the granting of KKW rank to those holding equivelant rank in other TKD systems.

 

[Archtkd]

I think the key here is the highlighted phrase. While you may not have personally met (or have met without knowing the details of their ranking?) such a person, they certainly exist. KKW materials posted here in the past, as well as comments from individuals holding high Dan ranks make it clear that the KKW has long endorsed "assimilation" ranking; the granting of KKW rank to those holding equivelant rank in other TKD systems.

I say that in my post: "I can see how this type of belt promotion might be applied in efforts to complete Kukkiwon taekwondo kwan unification and get more people involved in WTF competition, but I don't understand why you, an independent operator, would pursue that path."

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I'm not familiar with what you are saying. I've personally not met any Kukkiwon certified taekwondo master instructor who has recommended someone who they have not trained or physically tested (in taekwondo) for Kukkiwon certification, especially at the master level (4th Dan and up). I'm not saying it never happens, but I've never seen it myself, and do not endorse it. I can see how this type of belt promotion might be applied in efforts to complete Kukkiwon taekwondo kwan unification and get more people involved in WTF competition, but I don't understand why you, an independent operator, would pursue that path.

I don't think we're on the same sheet of music at the moment. Let me see if I can explain better by using a comparison. Forgive me that I don't remember your rank, let me use 4th Dan since that number is in your quote above to serve as an example. You test under your instructor for 4th Dan, pass the test and perhaps get a Kwan or Dojang cert. Since you and your instructor both belong to the KKW (I don't know if you do, just an example), you pay the appropriate fee and your rank is now recognized by the KKW. A representative of the KKW may or may not have been present (as far as from KKW admin in Korea). Thus you are now a KKW 4th Dan.

Okay, my instructor was a member of the WIF. I tested under my instructor for all my TKD rank. He recommended becoming a part of the WIF, as he had done. In effect, the WIF would be our organization in the same capacity that the KKW would serve another. Just as your KKW instructor vouched for your being a certain level by a Kwan or perhaps Dojang cert, mine did the same. This, in addition to all of my other training history was sent to the WIF HQ. GM Davies, after reviewing my credentials and the rank my own instructor had promoted me to, choose to skip my rank upwards. As GM Davies is a well known, well respected martial artist, I would humbly submit that this positively reflects upon my training history. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I soon after requested do be downgraded. Again, I would suggest this positively reflects upon me as well. I mean, who asks to have their rank reduced by petitioning the president of the organization. I did so respectfully and offered my justification for not skipping my rank upward. He accepted my request. Bottom line, I was happy with being, I think 5th, at the time and didn't want a skip upwards.

Bottom line, GM Davies did not test me, he relied upon the word of my instructor (my training history that was sent was just extra in my opinion). Just as the president of the KKW would not have tested you personally, he relied upon the word of your instructor that you were what he stated.

I hope this is a bit clearer?

 

[Archtkd]

I don't think we're on the same sheet of music at the moment. Let me see if I can explain better by using a comparison. Forgive me that I don't remember your rank, let me use 4th Dan since that number is in your quote above to serve as an example. You test under your instructor for 4th Dan, pass the test and perhaps get a Kwan or Dojang cert. Since you and your instructor both belong to the KKW (I don't know if you do, just an example), you pay the appropriate fee and your rank is now recognized by the KKW. A representative of the KKW may or may not have been present (as far as from KKW admin in Korea). Thus you are now a KKW 4th Dan.

Okay, my instructor was a member of the WIF. I tested under my instructor for all my TKD rank. He recommended becoming a part of the WIF, as he had done. In effect, the WIF would be our organization in the same capacity that the KKW would serve another. Just as your KKW instructor vouched for your being a certain level by a Kwan or perhaps Dojang cert, mine did the same. This, in addition to all of my other training history was sent to the WIF HQ. GM Davies, after reviewing my credentials and the rank my own instructor had promoted me to, choose to skip my rank upwards. As GM Davies is a well known, well respected martial artist, I would humbly submit that this positively reflects upon my training history. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I soon after requested do be downgraded. Again, I would suggest this positively reflects upon me as well. I mean, who asks to have their rank reduced by petitioning the president of the organization. I did so respectfully and offered my justification for not skipping my rank upward. He accepted my request. Bottom line, I was happy with being, I think 5th, at the time and didn't want a skip upwards.

Bottom line, GM Davies did not test me, he relied upon the word of my instructor (my training history that was sent was just extra in my opinion). Just as the president of the KKW would not have tested you personally, he relied upon the word of your instructor that you were what he stated.

I hope this is a bit clearer?

Understand I'm not questioning your qualifications, especially in martial arts and combat systems that I know nothing about. It's your process and motive of certification that I am curios about. In general you've been very critical of the Kukkiwon and a perceived way that taekwondo organizations certify and rank dan holders. I don't see how your way of doing things is any better. Why do you do it that way, especially given that you've implied that dan rankings mean nothing?

I have never had a kwan or dojang certificate. It's in fact a violation of Kukkiwon regulations for any Kukkiwon certified dan holder to issue dan certificates in their name, dojang or organization. I'm not saying it's not done, but anybody doing it is violating Kukkiwon rules -- rules that are now being looked at more closely as different Kukki taekwondo organizations and grandmasters sign memorandums of understanding with the Kukkiwon.

The way that I've always been certified, right up to my 5th dan this February is as follows. I train with a Kukkiwon certified teacher for a long time. That teacher tests me when he thinks I am ready -- in the presence of a panel of other senior dans and taekwondoin. If I pass the test, said teacher recommends me for Kukkiwon certification. Note I've also never practiced any other martial art in which I've sought ranking, besides Kukki taekwondo.