Knifehand Block or Sudo Makki

[jks9199]

Simply announcing that "when you know enough, you will know" isn't enough. Posts on MT aren't Twitter feeds; I've never seen anyone hit a "too long" limit on a post. Expand on your statements; how is sudo makki a throw? Is it always a throw, or are there times it really IS a block? Or even a strike? How is handan makki a strike?

By the way... You might consider stopping by the Meet & Greet and introducing yourself.

 

[Cyriacus]

once you get to a masters level in korean karate you will be of the knowledge about basics and blocks..sudo makki is definatley a throw that has been miseducated to students and handan makki is actually a strike not a block...

The Forearm Blocks in Taekwon-Do are very, very close to the Forearm Strikes in other Martial Arts.
Therefore they are Variations of those.

Taekwon-Do is not Korean Karate.
What may be used in one way in one, is not going to be identical in another.
Miseducated =/= Altered; Otherwise every offspring of Karate is a Miseducation of the Oldest Forms of Karate.
And Boxing is a Miseducation of Pugilism.
And Jab Punches which dont use the Bottom Three Knuckles are a Miseducation of Jab Punches.

Simply announcing that "when you know enough, you will know" isn't enough. Posts on MT aren't Twitter feeds; I've never seen anyone hit a "too long" limit on a post. Expand on your statements; how is sudo makki a throw? Is it always a throw, or are there times it really IS a block? Or even a strike? How is handan makki a strike?

Low Forearm Blocks are a Block based on a Striking Method. Im sure some people would simply teach it as a Strike which ultimately Blocks most of the time, unless it is used on a Lowered Target.
Much in the same way, Low Knife Hand Blocks can be transitioned into a Throw, and perhaps it originally was entirely a Throw.
But saying it is Miseducated because it is also used as a Block, is covered above.

 

[granfire]

well it's too early to picture it just yet...

but generally speaking, thee is a lot of misconception going on as to the purpose of a technique as it is placed in a form.
A strike an be a block and vice versa, as well as turning (in case of the open hand strikes/blocks) into a grab, which in turn can lead to a trow...

it is not so much taught in TKD as it is in Hanmudo for example: One situation can turn into several different scenarios, the ground is not not static and the technique is flowing.
this comes to mind as I ahve been taught strikes and blocks in similar fashion with actually no difference except in name:both have a circular motion (spear hands excluded) and the twist in the wrist/fore arm.

It seems to me that especially the open hand techniques are void of meaning in modern TKD, the application is lacking and most modern practitioners are a bit soft on the hand's edge...

Seems to me there is a connection to the guard position of the free hand in sticks (as taught by the ITA...I'm not versed in what the real stick people do) which is somewhat a 'prayer' position in front of the sternum, ready to grab either your own stick to enforce it ot the opponent's to block or disarm...

 

[GENIUS MARTIAL ARTS]

handan makki is a strike . when a kick comes in you strike the inner thigh or the calf...have someone stand in front of you and do a front kick .strike the leg with a handan makki..as with most blocks that we learn as a beginner we think " how will that work or how will that block work in reality" well try using handan makki as a strike in training (one steps) with a partner and you will realise and believe. when i trained in korea to improve my knowledge and instructing i was given these secrets.i have studied korean karate and wooden weapons for 27 years and there are many things we get taught in the uk that are not true . but when you reach 2nd dan and above you should know this.i have been instructing korean karate for 18 yrs now and have travelled the world to perfect this..instructors teach what they know but this doesnt mean it is right..if you go to korea and train with a master then the knowledge you obtain will be more true than what an english instructor will tell you...(agree?)

 

[GENIUS MARTIAL ARTS]

sorry cyriacus for being arogant but korean karate should always stay as it originally was...i did get my knowledge from a korean master when i was out there training. so i have been taught the original ways..if they have been changed or adapted over the years then it is not quite true anymore..never fix something that isnt broken!!

 

[Cyriacus]

sorry cyriacus for being arogant but korean karate should always stay as it originally was...i did get my knowledge from a korean master when i was out there training. so i have been taught the original ways..if they have been changed or adapted over the years then it is not quite true anymore..never fix something that isnt broken!!

Your logic is still flawed, given that this is Not Korean Karate. As such, Korean Karate is unchanged, and claiming otherwise ignores countless practical contradictions.
One might say dont fix what isnt broken - But what if neither system is broken, and both systems work just fine? Despite the alteration, TKD is distinguished from Korean Karate as a different Martial Art.

Itd be like trying to tell a Boxer he needs to clinch and use elbows more, just because thats how it originally was, before it was changed into the Boxing we all know today.
That uses gloves, instead of bare knuckles.
And both the new and old methods work just fine.

Korean Karate is a conceptual base of TKD, but for the same reasons Kajukenbo can function without exactly copying Judo, Ju-Jutsu, Tang Soo Do, Kenpo Karate, Eskrima, Boxing, and Kung Fu; Taekwon-Do can function without exactly copying its roots.

This discussion is quite odd, really. What your trying to communicate is that youve gone into the Taekwon-Do Forum, and said that a Technique is being Miseducated because it isnt being taught the same way as Korean Karate.
Again, Jab Punches with the Bottom Three Knuckles, with the Fist Vertical. One of the oldest Techniques in the World.

 

[andyjeffries]

Guys, don't feed the troll...

 

[Earl Weiss]

korean karate should always stay as it originally was...i did get my knowledge from a korean master when i was out there training.

The term "Original Korean Karate" is an oxymoron.

 

[Earl Weiss]

.i have studied korean karate and wooden weapons for 27 years ........................i have been instructing korean karate for 18 yrs now......................if you go to korea and train with a master then the knowledge you obtain will be more true than what an english instructor will tell you...(agree?)

I wish I was training for 27 years and teaching for 18. That would make me at leat 13 years younger than I am now.

There are many senior Korean instructors outside Korea (can't speak for the UK, but certainly here in the USA). No need to go there to get old versions of the "Real" stuff.

 

[Grenadier]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep this conversation civil, and on-topic.

Thank you.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator

 

[SahBumNimRush]

First, I would like to address the OP, since I'm arriving a bit late to the discussion.

I agree with Dancing on this. Even within TKD, there are many variations of the chamber and wrap up, and I can be convinced that all have a logical justification. Particularly when it comes to Boon Hae, different chambers work in different scenarios. The execution of the movement should be relatively universal though; leading with the waist and elbow, then the dropping of the elbow to create the arcing end movement. I use the term "movement" because of its broad application, SooDo Makki can be used effectively as strike, block or throw, with or without elements of trapping, locking, and elbow striking.

IMHO, if you position yourself into the hard stance of the movement HAVING to be only a throw. Then your proverbial cup is too full.

 

[oftheherd1]

I am in no position to tell anyone what a move in TKD is. I can say that in the Hapkido I was taught, there is a technique where a hand strike is blocked with the same (that is left block to right strike) side hand (as one steps sideways into the attack with the opposite foot) which is slid down the arm. The blocking hand and the opposite hand then grab then grab the skin of the forearm and biceps as tightly as posible, and a hip throw or low shoulder throw is executed as one continues a turning motion. Properly done it is a painful and violent manouver.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I am in no position to tell anyone what a move in TKD is. I can say that in the Hapkido I was taught, there is a technique where a hand strike is blocked with the same (that is left block to right strike) side hand (as one steps sideways into the attack with the opposite foot) which is slid down the arm. The blocking hand and the opposite hand then grab then grab the skin of the forearm and biceps as tightly as posible, and a hip throw or low shoulder throw is executed as one continues a turning motion. Properly done it is a painful and violent manouver.

I have seen and used this technique in class, and it only illustrates the various uses of this "movement." I cannot say whether or not this is something prevalent in other schools, but my sahbumnim always stressed that no one person or art "owns a a technique." If you understand the movement and incorporate it into your repertoire, then it is as much your art (Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo in my particular case) as it is any other art.

 

[Earl Weiss]

>>>IMHO, if you position yourself into the hard stance of the movement HAVING to be only a throw. Then your proverbial cup is too full. I have seen and used this technique in class, and it only illustrates the various uses of this "movement."Dr. Benjamin Rush, 5th DanS.H. Kang's Tae Kwon Do Academy

 

[oftheherd1]

>>>IMHO, if you position yourself into the hard stance of the movement HAVING to be only a throw. Then your proverbial cup is too full. I have seen and used this technique in class, and it only illustrates the various uses of this "movement."Dr. Benjamin Rush, 5th DanS.H. Kang's Tae Kwon Do Academy

Did you intend to add something here? Or maybe you are trying to show a contradiction? I can see where that could be a possible intention. I wasn't entirely sure what he meant, but I thought SaBumNinRush was trying to say one should have options when a punch is defended against, and not always expect to use only one defense. I would agree that once commiting to a block and throw, since you are stepping in (at least as I learned it), you don't have many other options. Perhaps he will be kind enough to clarify for both of us.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Did you intend to add something here? Or maybe you are trying to show a contradiction? I can see where that could be a possible intention. I wasn't entirely sure what he meant, but I thought SaBumNinRush was trying to say one should have options when a punch is defended against, and not always expect to use only one defense. I would agree that once commiting to a block and throw, since you are stepping in (at least as I learned it), you don't have many other options. Perhaps he will be kind enough to clarify for both of us.

I don't believe I was being contradictory in my two statements, let me try to be more clear. My initial statement was that SooDo Makki has many applications, including block, strike, throw, with or without the use of trapping, locking, or elbow strike. Depending on the situation one movement can have many applications.

The second statement that I made was in response to offtheherds Hapkido experience of the same movement. Although we teach the basic explanation of SooDo Makki as a block, we do use it as a throw as well.

I can see how it could be taken as contradictory since both statements were referring to the use of the movement as a throw, but I was trying to highlight that oftheherd's Hapkido experience of the movement as a throw is one of the ways I utilize the movement, but not the only application that we teach. I am sure others here have similar experiences with multiple applications of the same movement, and that is what I'm trying to shed some light on.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I don't have any videos of me performing applications/uses of the movement in question, so I went to the all mighty tube.. . I am not endorsing these, as they are not exactly what I practice, but to illustrate my point of versatility, a quick youtube search shows many different applications of this movement.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I have seen and used this technique in class, and it only illustrates the various uses of this "movement."
　
Dr. Benjamin Rush, 5th Dan
S.H. Kang's Tae Kwon Do Academy<<
Sorry, only part of my post made it. The above should be read, re- read and read again.
The so called "real applications" trend are a flavor of the month. Rick Clark notes in his real applications book that he has no idea what the real applications are. That was lost in antiquity (though some texts like Bubishi are around). He only notes that the applications he provides really work. His "75 Down Block" book contains numerous applications. Are all, none, or some real? Or, perhaps that focus is too narrow.
As General Choi notes, the most important training secret is to know the purpose / application of the technique. Yet that is only part of what he says. He often shows more than one application and states that you must understand the distance and angle. This is not a new concept ("Wax on Wax Off"). The goal is proper motion.
Toward that end knowing an application is but one tool in helping you understand the motion, and that is the point. The applications help you learn how to move in an efficient, well balanced and powerful manner. Once this is learned the motion can be utilized in any number of ways limited only by practical considerations. ("Pick up Jacket, put on jacket...")
Yet we still need to be careful that we are not so heavenly minded we ain&#8217;t no earthly good.
"Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick.
After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick.
Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."
-- Bruce Lee

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I have seen and used this technique in class, and it only illustrates the various uses of this "movement."
&#12288;
Dr. Benjamin Rush, 5th Dan
S.H. Kang's Tae Kwon Do Academy<<
Sorry, only part of my post made it. The above should be read, re- read and read again.
The so called "real applications" trend are a flavor of the month. Rick Clark notes in his real applications book that he has no idea what the real applications are. That was lost in antiquity (though some texts like Bubishi are around). He only notes that the applications he provides really work. His "75 Down Block" book contains numerous applications. Are all, none, or some real? Or, perhaps that focus is too narrow.
As General Choi notes, the most important training secret is to know the purpose / application of the technique. Yet that is only part of what he says. He often shows more than one application and states that you must understand the distance and angle. This is not a new concept ("Wax on Wax Off"). The goal is proper motion.
Toward that end knowing an application is but one tool in helping you understand the motion, and that is the point. The applications help you learn how to move in an efficient, well balanced and powerful manner. Once this is learned the motion can be utilized in any number of ways limited only by practical considerations. ("Pick up Jacket, put on jacket...")
Yet we still need to be careful that we are not so heavenly minded we ain&#8217;t no earthly good.
"Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick.
After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick.
Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."
-- Bruce Lee

There is a lot of truth in what you are saying Mr. Weiss. There is a huge difference between impractical/complex applications and applications that are efficient and effective. It is easy to see many who over complicate things, many who intellectualize things. I do not have "75 applications for a block to the down," but I do have more than one use for that motion. If we use your example of a text that illustrates these different movements, the Bubishi, it clearly shows that what some schools teach as a block have other uses.

I would like to say that I'm not a Boon Hae/Bunkai crazy guy, but it is something that can connect what many already teach as "self-defense" with the hyung/kata, and in doing so you can enlighten yourself on why the wraps, preparations, stacks, etc. are supposed to be executed as they are. It validates the mechanics of the movements themselves.

It may be more difficult for derive this from the "modern" forms, but since my association practices the old Karate form sets, we have a template to go on. There has been discussion here previously on whether or not the pioneers of TKD created the new hyungs/poomsae with varying depths of application in mind. I will admit that some may be reverse engineering applications to movements, but if it is efficient and effective is there really anything detrimental to that?

 

[Earl Weiss]

I will admit that some may be reverse engineering applications to movements, but if it is efficient and effective is there really anything detrimental to that?

If it is efficient and effective, then it is a "Real Application".