Knifehand Block or Sudo Makki

[dancingalone]

So, I was debating with my TKD friend last night about the 'right' way to perform this technique. In his school, it's invariably practiced along a straight line where the hands chamber towards the rear and then shoot forward with the characteristic open hand position. I argue that while the chamber position is less important (many styles do it different ways), the motion in which it comes forward and strikes should be a circular one as it travels and then terminates at the bottom of the arc. My reasoning is that the application is meant to be a chop or slash or even a 2-handed grap or trap, and it's best to get everyone used to this type of motion early on through basics.

Your thoughts?

 

[bluekey88]

I happen to agree with you. In fact, in reviewing techniqcal details for the TKD Taeguk poomse...the double knife block/strike is supposed to come around in a slight arc...not shoot out in a straight line.

It makes sense froma a technical standpoint if you think of the forward hand hitting something and the rear hand trapping someting. Hell, the long chamber then becomes a parry or redirect settin gup a trap/counter strike. This wont work with a linear execution of the technique though.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Miles]

I too agree with you. Interestingly (ok, at least to me), this is called a "side chop" by some groups rather than a knifehand block (or han sonnal makki). I would also posit that there should also be a rotation of the lower arm (i.e. from elbow to fingertips) to the outside for maximum effect.

 

[ATC]

Ditto all above me.

 

[Lord-Humongous]

For us the prep is high and to the rear with the hands coming down to chest level as they move through the block. Backs of the hand twist 180 degrees through the movement and body to move in sine wave (down - up - down). I am assuming you are in an L stance for this. Hands do not move in a circular way in that for the following movement (being same double knife hand block) as you move forward, you do not lower your hands for the prep, they go back up to the rear. This is the proper ITF way which may well differ if you are in a WTF school.

 

[ATC]

For us the prep is high and to the rear with the hands coming down to chest level as they move through the block. Backs of the hand twist 180 degrees through the movement and body to move in sine wave (down - up - down). I am assuming you are in an L stance for this. Hands do not move in a circular way in that for the following movement (being same double knife hand block) as you move forward, you do not lower your hands for the prep, they go back up to the rear. This is the proper ITF way which may well differ if you are in a WTF school.

Very much different. The setup is at the opposite side hip, not high. No sine wave as the head must stay level even when traveling. the hand does twist 180 degrees through the movement but it arcs and moves up towards the target.

However if the block is done down or low then the hand sets at the opposite shoulder. Still arcing and twisting but traveling down through the movement. Still the head stays level and you should not bob or sine up and down.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Though not stipulated as such, in the Chang Hun system typicaly blocks are designed to damage the attacking limb. They also tend to start away from your body and move across the body, as opposed to having the hands start close to the body and move away from the body. It is optimal to intercept the limb at a perpendicular angle in order to imact with the most force and create the miost damage.

With this theory in mind and the concept that the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line, the arc is minimal and virtualy eliminated prior to the point of impact.

The system does stipulate that the straight motion is used to damage and a circular motion can be used for more of a pushing effect.

Now, if you alter the application of the technique to be something other than a block, then the method of execution may need to vary as well for optimal effect.

 

[ATC]

Though not stipulated as such, in the Chang Hun system typicaly blocks are designed to damage the attacking limb. They also tend to start away from your body and move across the body, as opposed to having the hands start close to the body and move away from the body. It is optimal to intercept the limb at a perpendicular angle in order to imact with the most force and create the miost damage.

With this theory in mind and the concept that the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line, the arc is minimal and virtualy eliminated prior to the point of impact.

The system does stipulate that the straight motion is used to damage and a circular motion can be used for more of a pushing effect.

Now, if you alter the application of the technique to be something other than a block, then the method of execution may need to vary as well for optimal effect.

As I agree with you in concept I would have to disagree from a practical stand point, as all blocks need to have some arc as to ensure that you will intercept the on coming technique. The knife hand block done either from the hip or the shoulder would have to arc some as simply going from point A to point B would make the technique almost like trying to punch or spear hand. Thus making intercepting an oncoming punch quite difficult. If you simply attempt a knife hand block you will see that there is a natural arc that is needed to bring the hand from point A to B. Now you can minimize the arc but that would also minimize your possible impact point on the arm or attacking weapon increasing the possibility of missing the block altogether.

 

[dortiz]

Have someone hold your wrist as you do it and you will see why ARC is good and how it may serve an interesting purpose.

; )

 

[Balrog]

When I teach this, I call it 'cleaning the mirror'.

I'll step up close to the mirror, chamber and execute. The blocking hand should come across, as if you were using your sleeve to wipe a spot off the mirror. When the students see that and get that visual image, the quality of the block goes up by orders of magnitude.

 

[bluekey88]

When I teach this, I call it 'cleaning the mirror'.

I'll step up close to the mirror, chamber and execute. The blocking hand should come across, as if you were using your sleeve to wipe a spot off the mirror. When the students see that and get that visual image, the quality of the block goes up by orders of magnitude.

i like that. I'm going to steal that and try it with some of my younger, more "concrete" students.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Earl Weiss]

When I teach this, I call it 'cleaning the mirror'.

I'll step up close to the mirror, chamber and execute. The blocking hand should come across, as if you were using your sleeve to wipe a spot off the mirror. When the students see that and get that visual image, the quality of the block goes up by orders of magnitude.

Great description. I hope ATC catches it. This is what i was trying to explain by saying the arc is minimized. Of course there needs to be some, but as you describe, prior to the impact there is no arc for the last part of travel. If the attack is coming from the front, (which is what the block should be used against) this allows te attacking limb to be intercepted at a perpendicular angle which is optimal for foirce transfer.

 

[DMcHenry]

We chamber with both open hands on the hip/belt, then I like to come up and around forward in an arc for a more circular slightly outward strike/block/release/lock while rotating the palm from facing the body to away. So yes, I agree with y'all too.

 

[ATC]

Great description. I hope ATC catches it. This is what i was trying to explain by saying the arc is minimized. Of course there needs to be some, but as you describe, prior to the impact there is no arc for the last part of travel. If the attack is coming from the front, (which is what the block should be used against) this allows te attacking limb to be intercepted at a perpendicular angle which is optimal for foirce transfer.

Yes I did get it. There is still and arch as your body needs to turn as well on a 30 degree angle forcing the arc. There is not straight line. I think you misinterpreted what is meant by an arc. It is not making a half circle with your arm by no means but you do need to arc as to come around with the body. A straight line block would almost be like tring to catch the punch. You really would be minimizing the interception point.

We may be talking the same thing but just looking at it differently. If I take your mirror cleaning example then I still see an arc. Your forearm would still touch the glass at a point that is away from the punch then move toward the punch as it comes across the mirror. That is how I am seeing it.

 

[Earl Weiss]

We may be talking the same thing but just looking at it differently. If I take your mirror cleaning example then I still see an arc. Your forearm would still touch the glass at a point that is away from the punch then move toward the punch as it comes across the mirror. That is how I am seeing it.

Geez, shows how poor the written word can be at describing 3 dimensional motion. Your description is not at all how I picture it. The attacker's punch is coming thru the glass, toward you breaking thru the glass at a perpendicular angle. You are facing the glass in an L / Back stance and for example, your right foot is back. Your front / left hand at the end of the motion is traveling along the plane of the mirror more or less parallel to the floor as if to wipe it, except that your hand may be slightly angled so only the fingeripds would wipe it intercepting the punching arm at a perpendiculoar angle. At no time would your forearm contact the glass.
I think there may be different methodoligies employed but they would be simpler to show than describe.

 

[ATC]

Geez, shows how poor the written word can be at describing 3 dimensional motion...

Words leave to much up for interpretations. That is why so many love to read books. Then when the movie is made the see nothing from their interpretation of the book. The director can only give you what he visualized. Also why so many get into trouble when they really meant no harm or offence at all.

Maybe I will shoot my kids doing a single or double knife hand to see if we are on the same page. (I am camera shy

).

 

[GENIUS MARTIAL ARTS]

Sudo makki is not a block and all you proffesionals should already know this..it is a throw and been modified and taught as a block...sudo makki is a throw so all instructors please do your research

 

[seasoned]

If you would, point to this research.

 

[Cyriacus]

If you would, point to this research.

This. There perhaps could be a different move of the same notion, but the Knife Hand Block is a rather Traditional Technique. Furthermore, its used in numerous Patterns, and not as a throw.
I think Judo teaches a Throw based on it though, which may go back to BEFORE Taekwon-Do, as a seperate thing.
Now, a Knife Hand Block can be switched into a Grab of a Front Kick, but thats a whole other Technique, which merely depends on the Initial Knife Hand Block to initiate.
Its like calling the Spear Finger Thrust in Do-San a Release from a Grab, simply because it is proceeded by it.

If there is Evidence stating that the Traditional Knife Hand Low Block in Taekwon-Do is a Throw, im all ears.

 

[GENIUS MARTIAL ARTS]

once you get to a masters level in korean karate you will be of the knowledge about basics and blocks..sudo makki is definatley a throw that has been miseducated to students and handan makki is actually a strike not a block...