KMA/CMA historical connections?

[exile]

Lately it's seemed to me that some interesting potential historical sources for the Korean arts have been neglected in our discussions on the board, and I'd like to try to get some more attention for these sources—particularly, the role of the Chinese arts in the formation of the modern KMAs Hapkido, Tang Soo Do and Taekwondo. So far as TKD is concerned, there are at least anecdotes that link four of the first generation Kwan-era pioneers—Yon Kwai Byeong, Yoon, Byung In, Lee Won-kuk and Hwang Kee—to training in the CMAs, in some cases by way of Manchuria; and there may be others as well. It goes without saying that these anecdotes need to be nailed down and documented, but beyond that, I'm wondering if other MTers have any ideas, or knowledge, bearing on influences from the Chinese arts on the Korean arts? Long Fist chuan fa, for example, has a range of spectacular, difficult full-extension high kicks that seem at least similar, in general, to those of TKD and Hapkido, and I'm wondering if there is any historical connection in this, or other, technical domain. Does anyone have any thoughts about these possible relationships?

 

[terryl965]

All I know for sure are the ones you have mention so far, but I to would like to see the connection to the CMA's as well. Good thread and lets see what we can come up with.

 

[YoungMan]

"Boulder pushing" from Sipjin strikes me as very similar to what you would find in Chinese martial arts-almost Tai Chi-like in it's execution and form.
Yes, several of the original Kwan founders did have experience in Chinese martial arts, such as Won Kuk Lee and one of the founders of Chang Moo Kwan. Lee also stated he called his style Tang Soo Do to reference Chinese arts.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Finding anything about these connections are complicated by a couple of factors. The first being rather terse references to training in Manchuria, the second is a habit of refering to CMAs in Korean terms.

For instance, with Yon Kwai Byeong and Yoon Byung In there are only broad references to learning Chuan Fa in Manchuria. Chuan Fa is a rather old and homogenous term for CMAs. Long Fist is properly referred to as Changquan. I actually don't doubt that these masters learned something in Manchuria, its just not clear what it was. There are myriad styles they could have studied.

The clearest information I have found in my admittedly short search concerns Hwang Kee. Histories about him refer to training from 1936 to 1945 with a master named Yang Kuk Jin. Unfortunately, most of the articles I have found refer to what he learned by using Korean terms thus making it difficult to work out what it was that he learned.

Lee Won-Kuk's CMA connection actually appears to be Shotokan Karate. I have been unable to find any references to him learning any Chinese styles directly. He did study a Chinese translation of Funakoshi's book, that seems to be as close as he gets. An interesting point though, one of the early names Lee considered was Hwa Soo Do (Way of the Flowering Fist). This is a lot like the name of a substyle of Changquan, Huaquan (Flower Fist).

That's the best I've come up with.

The Korean end of this appears to be obscure and the Chinese end borders on non-existent. I am sure that CMAs were studied, Yoon Byung In lived in Manchuria for a time afterall, its just not clear what ones.

 

[exile]

Finding anything about these connections are complicated by a couple of factors. The first being rather terse references to training in Manchuria, the second is a habit of refering to CMAs in Korean terms.

For instance, with Yon Kwai Byeong and Yoon Byung In there are only broad references to learning Chuan Fa in Manchuria. Chuan Fa is a rather old and homogenous term for CMAs. Long Fist is properly referred to as Changquan. I actually don't doubt that these masters learned something in Manchuria, its just not clear what it was. There are myriad styles they could have studied.

The clearest information I have found in my admittedly short search concerns Hwang Kee. Histories about him refer to training from 1936 to 1945 with a master named Yang Kuk Jin. Unfortunately, most of the articles I have found refer to what he learned by using Korean terms thus making it difficult to work out what it was that he learned.

Lee Won-Kuk's CMA connection actually appears to be Shotokan Karate. I have been unable to find any references to him learning any Chinese styles directly. He did study a Chinese translation of Funakoshi's book, that seems to be as close as he gets. An interesting point though, one of the early names Lee considered was Hwa Soo Do (Way of the Flowering Fist). This is a lot like the name of a substyle of Changquan, Huaquan (Flower Fist).

That's the best I've come up with.

The Korean end of this appears to be obscure and the Chinese end borders on non-existent. I am sure that CMAs were studied, Yoon Byung In lived in Manchuria for a time afterall, its just not clear what ones.

All this reflects the great problem... where do you go to gets leads on what people learned, and when, and from whom? So much of MA history exists on an individual level, where records are hard to find, if no one kept journals, or wrote letters, or detailed memoirs. It's hard to believe there are no clues out there... but it almost feels as if you have to bump into them by accident, rather than trying a direct frontal attack on the problem, which is likely to reveal very little.

Still, there must be footprints out there....

 

[Xue Sheng]

from 1936 to 1945

I do not know what years you are talking about for the Korean masters mentioned and dates would be helpful

But there is a problem a Korean learning anything CMA in Manchuria between 1936 to 1945. Manchuria was under the control of the empire of Japan during that time and they were not exactly CMA friendly.

But you also need to take into account when you are talking CMA you cannot really pin down the origins of many CMA styles so trying to get a Korean art link to China may not be easy.

 

[SageGhost83]

Hmmm, this is a hard one. Awesome thread though, Exile. We needed this one. What about the MDT? Doesn't it contain Chinese Longfist in it? If in fact the Koreans did practice what was recorded in that manual, then wouldn't that be proof of some sort of connection? I am also thinking of the Buddhism connection. Korea did import buddhism from China, perhaps they also imported some shaolin methods, as well? Which brings me to the Seon monks - what were they doing that was so devastating against the Japanese during the Imjin wars? Man, you are right, exile. So many different directions to look in. However, I am sure that the footprints are still there, too. It is just going to take a little work to uncover them.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I do not know what years you are talking about for the Korean masters mentioned and dates would be helpful

But there is a problem a Korean learning anything CMA in Manchuria between 1936 to 1945. Manchuria was under the control of the empire of Japan during that time and they were not exactly CMA friendly.

But you also need to take into account when you are talking CMA you cannot really pin down the origins of many CMA styles so trying to get a Korean art link to China may not be easy.

XS, you have pointed to a very real problem with all the Korean masters' statements about training in Manchuria. It raises a very delicate issue about Korea and WWII - Koreans did serve with the Japanese Imperial forces during the war, not as soldiers as such but as guards and workers (Hwang Kee worked on the Chosun Railway for instance). It may or may not have been willingly, but they did serve. Is it possible that some or all of the masters who claim to have trained in Manchuria were there at the behest of the Japanese?

Hwang Kee would have been in his early to mid 20s at the time, Lee Won Kuk a little older in his early 30s. I guess all the masters would have been around the same age. Some could definitely have been in Manchuria before the war though.

 

[YoungMan]

In an interview, Won Kuk Lee stated that he traveled to the kung fu centers of Henan and Shanghai in China to study there. This was after he graduated Chuo Law School in Japan.
Based on what he has said, his martial arts background is actually quite extensive and is much more than just Shotokan karate.
He also did not found Hwa Soo Do. That was Hwang Ki, who found limited success teaching until he changed the name to Tang Soo Do with the permission of GGM Lee and others.

 

[Steel Tiger]

In an interview, Won Kuk Lee stated that he traveled to the kung fu centers of Henan and Shanghai in China to study there. This was after he graduated Chuo Law School in Japan.
Based on what he has said, his martial arts background is actually quite extensive and is much more than just Shotokan karate.
He also did not found Hwa Soo Do. That was Hwang Ki, who found limited success teaching until he changed the name to Tang Soo Do with the permission of GGM Lee and others.

Now that makes some sense to me. Lee was born in 1907 so he would have had plenty of time to travel to a number of parts of China before the Japanese invaded Manchuria. It would be advantageous to find out what styles he studied while there, then it would be easier to line up style, chronology, and teacher.

You're right about Hwa Soo Do. I went back to the reference I found and discovered that I had misread the sentence (it wasn't very well written). Nor did it refer to Hwang Ki is connection to the name. My point remains though, the name is very similar to the Changquan substyle. An interesting point is that in China the term huaquan is often applied to posers and people with no essence to their arts. Just a coincidence I think.

 

[YoungMan]

Also, considering when he was born, it would have been feasible for him to have studied some Korean martial arts before the Japanese started cracking down. He told an interviewer that he did indeed study martial arts in Korea at this time when he was a teenager. It certainly would not have been Japanese or Chinese styles. That wouldn't happen until later when he left for school in Japan.

 

[Xue Sheng]

XS, you have pointed to a very real problem with all the Korean masters' statements about training in Manchuria. It raises a very delicate issue about Korea and WWII - Koreans did serve with the Japanese Imperial forces during the war, not as soldiers as such but as guards and workers (Hwang Kee worked on the Chosun Railway for instance). It may or may not have been willingly, but they did serve. Is it possible that some or all of the masters who claim to have trained in Manchuria were there at the behest of the Japanese?

Hwang Kee would have been in his early to mid 20s at the time, Lee Won Kuk a little older in his early 30s. I guess all the masters would have been around the same age. Some could definitely have been in Manchuria before the war though.

It does not mean he did not study any CMA while in Manchuria it just means it is not likely. The Japanese were not to CMA friendly and the Chinese of the time certainly were not into training the Japanese or anyone that work for them. But there can always be an exception to the rule.

In an interview, Won Kuk Lee stated that he traveled to the kung fu centers of Henan and Shanghai in China to study there. This was after he graduated Chuo Law School in Japan.
Based on what he has said, his martial arts background is actually quite extensive and is much more than just Shotokan karate.
He also did not found Hwa Soo Do. That was Hwang Ki, who found limited success teaching until he changed the name to Tang Soo Do with the permission of GGM Lee and others.

In an interview, Won Kuk Lee stated that he traveled to the kung fu centers of Henan and Shanghai in China to study there. This was after he graduated Chuo Law School in Japan.
Based on what he has said, his martial arts background is actually quite extensive and is much more than just Shotokan karate.
He also did not found Hwa Soo Do. That was Hwang Ki, who found limited success teaching until he changed the name to Tang Soo Do with the permission of GGM Lee and others.

This does make much more sense than Manchuria. It was not uncommon pre-WW II for Japanese to go to China and train CMA, Chan Buddhism, etc.


Although linking KMA to CMA is an interesting topic I have to admit something here I do not quite get the reason for trying to connect them. It is hard enough trying to connect CMA people of today to CMA people of the past in some styles to try and connect an outside style to it would be, IMO, considerably harder to impossible. Some due to fraudulent claims others due to the history of China and Chinese culture. One of my favorite examples of recent history is Wang Xiangzhai and there is really no doubt of his claims but he is a good example. You can link him rather easily to his Xingyiquan Sifu Guo Yunshen but the other claims, such as a bit of training wit Yang Shouhao is a bit harder to prove (although not really in doubt) in his case the cultural revolution got in the way as well as more recent Yang family politics. In the case of the Korean masters that may have studied you have WW II and the Cultural Revolution in the way so the link may only go as far as what the Korean master himself has said and there may be no further proof of it.

From what little I know of KMA these days (I trained TKD but it was years ago and I was more into training than history) it would appear to have more of a Japanese connection than a Chinese one but that does not rule out a direct Chinese connection or an indirect through those Japanese MAs linked to China. However depending on how you want to look at it there is a basis of connecting Japanese martial arts to very old Chinese martial arts as far back as the Qin dynasty (221 BC - 206 BC).

But with that said I will still follow this topic with great interest.

 

[rmclain]

I've never heard of Yoon Kwe-byung (Yoon Ui-byung) studiying any chuan-fa. His teachers in Japan were Mabuni Genwa and Toyama Kanken.


Yoon Byung-in: He was born in 1908 and grew up in Chang Chun, Manchuria, in the outskirts I believe. In a meeting in 2005 with his family, they said he trained under a Mongolian instructor from youth until he left for Nihon University in Japan around 1938. They didn't give a name though. They also mentioned that most of the chuan-fa instructors around Chang Chun were from Mongolia back then. One of Yoon Byung-in's students, Hong Jong-pyo, had a student that is a medical doctor. On a business trip to Chang Chun (there is a large Korean community still there) about 15 years ago, he saw chuan-fa students practicing in a park. They were practicing a version of Jang Kwon very similar to the version we still practice in Chayon-Ryu. They call their chuan-fa style "Pal Guek Moon."

Grandmaster Kim Ki-whang (dec. 1993) confirmed that he witnessed Yoon Byung-in beating up a group of karate students from Toyama Kanken's karate club at the university. There was lots of animousity from Japanese students towards Korean students on campus. Apparently, Yoon Byung-in was defending a classmate from getting beaten up. The karate students told Toyama Kanken about being defeated by a Korean using some martial arts, but it wasn't karate. Toyama invited Yoon to visit the karate club. Yoon began learning karate from Toyama at that time.

When Yoon located to Seoul following WWII, he taught both the chuan-fa he studied and the karate from Toyama Kanken in one curriculum. Toyama even recognized Yoon as a 4th Dan and the YMCA Kwon Bup Bu representative. (4th Dan was recognized as 2nd in rank to Toyama by Toyama himself at this time - Toyama was 5th Dan then). You can find Yoon listed as 4th dan in Toyama's early instructor's directory with (Korean) next to his name and listed as 5th Dan in the later edition.

As for what was taught from Chuan-fa? This portion is a major subject of the curriculum in Chayon-Ryu. Grandmaster Kim Pyung-soo has been preserving and teaching this part in Houston, Texas for 40 years now. Two forms from the old chuan-fa curriculum has been lost though. One form was called Cheung Yong Kwon, meaning, "Fist of the blue dragon." Another was called Kum Kang Kwon, meaning "Mightly Power. " Later this same name was used by the KTA for a new TKD black belt form. It is not the same form. Grandmaster Kim says that he saw Grandmaster Park Chul-hee demonstrate Cheung Yong Kwon at the demo from the linked photo below, but Grandmaster Park and everyone else didn't teach it anymore. So, he never got to learn it himself.

http://www.kimsookarate.com/gallery-old-days/1stdemo.html

Other chuan-fa form names fthat are preserved from this lineage include: Dan Kwon, Jang Kwon, Doju San, Taijo Kwon, So Ho Yon, Palgi Kwon, Han Son Dae Ryon. There are other partner drills, but these are the forms still preserved.

The link is to some photos of Grandmaster Kim Pyung-soo demonstrating Jang Kwon and So Ho Yon in Dallas, Texas in 1968. (Side note: I demonstrated these forms also when I visited Master Stoker's dojang a few years ago)
http://www.kimsookarate.com/gallery-first30/uskc68.html

More about Yoon Byung-in:
http://www.kimsookarate.com/intro/yoon/Byung_In_YoonrevMay3.pdf

http://www.kimsookarate.com/intro/yoon.html


R. McLain

 

[Xue Sheng]

They also mentioned that most of the chuan-fa instructors

The only problem with saying someone studied Quan Fa (chaun fa) is that it is not a style of Chinese martial arts anymore than Kung Fu is. It is a generic term not a CMA style. Saying Quan-fa instructor is saying basiacally the same as Kung Fu teacher or Wushu Sifu and it leads you right back to what style of CMA did he study/train.

Also Mongolian sifu could be teaching Mongolia wrestling too so again back to what style did any of them train in China?

 

[exile]

The only problem with saying someone studied Quan Fa (chaun fa) is that it is not a style of Chinese martial arts anymore than Kung Fu is. It is a generic term not a CMA style. Saying Quan-fa instructor is saying basiacally the same as Kung Fu teacher or Wushu Sifu and it leads you right back to what style of CMA did he study/train.

Also Mongolian sifu could be teaching Mongolia wrestling too so again back to what style did any of them train in China?

XS, is it possible to tell from rmcl's references to the form names, and/or the vid links he provides, what that style might have been? Can we at least say whether it was a northern system (as we'd expect) or not?

 

[howard]

...I'd like to try to get some more attention for these sources—particularly, the role of the Chinese arts in the formation of the modern KMAs Hapkido...

Hi Exile,

In order to address this question, I think it would be useful to distinguish the original basis of Hapkido, which is the Yawara/Aikijujutsu that Choi Yong Sul taught after repatriating to Korea after WW2, and the much more comprehensive art known as Hapkido that derives from Ji Han Jae.

There may well be a Chinese basis for the kicks that Ji Han Jae and Kim Moo Hwong added to the locking/seizing curriculum that Ji learned from Choi. Ji's accounts of where he learned the kicks, and what their sources are, are pretty widely available.

With respect to what Choi himself taught, however, there is really no reasonable doubt that it was based completely on what he had learned during thirty-odd years in Japan. Likewise, it seems clear that he learned a form of Aikijujutsu. One can confirm this by seeking out a legitimate Daito-ryu dojo and observing or training with them. The parallels are quite obvious; in many cases the techniques are identical.

An intriguing suggestion that has appeared from time to time is that Choi learned his art from Yoshida Kotaro. Yoshida was a licensed Daito-ryu instructor (and is the man who introduced Morihei Ueshiba to Sokaku Takeda), but he was also well versed in a family art, having been raised in a samurai family. Yoshida's art survives today in the US in the form of Yanagi-ryu, which was passed from Yoshida's son to Don Angier.

Just as context, probably about 95% (or more) of all the Hapkido dojangs in the world can trace their lineage somehow to Ji Han Jae, as opposed to the small number that continue to train only in what Choi taught. So, it's probably reasonable to look to Ji's Hapkido when addressing this question.

As for Ji's influences, perhaps others can address "Taoist Lee" and "Grandma" - two important influences on Ji as he was expanding Hapkido, according to his own accounts.

Hope this is somewhat helpful, in spite of the rambling.

 

[Steel Tiger]

XS, is it possible to tell from rmcl's references to the form names, and/or the vid links he provides, what that style might have been? Can we at least say whether it was a northern system (as we'd expect) or not?

It might very well be possible to connect to a general group of styles. Given that Yoon did some training in Shanghai in addition to having a Mongolian teacher, there may be some southern aspects as well as the anticipated northern ones.

It would be helpful to me if I could get translations of the other form names. My Korean is so sketchy as to be non-existent.

 

[Xue Sheng]

XS, is it possible to tell from rmcl's references to the form names, and/or the vid links he provides, what that style might have been? Can we at least say whether it was a northern system (as we'd expect) or not?

Well what do we have?

Changchun is in Jilin but then Jilin is on the Border of China and Korea and is very much North China

Chuan-fa is Mandarin I believe with is North China but not native to Jilin

But if I remember correctly Chuan Fa is also associated with Kenpo/Kempo so that is not proof of much

But from what I read Yoon Young-hyun took his family to Manchuria Pre-Japanese invasion of Manchuria so he could have learned CMA in Manchuria. But a Mongolian teaching quan fa tells us little actually as to what style it actually was. But I do doubt form looking at the pictures that it was Mongolian wrestling as I mentioned previously

The form names are Korean as SteelTiger mentioned. You run to lot of problems with Pre-Mao stuff due to the written Chinese, it is not simplified which gives to a lot of translation errors today unless you have someone trained in Traditional Chinese and those are not as common as you would think today in or out of China. Example a friend of mine’s wife is from North Japan and if you look at the Character for her family name it is a Chinese character and she pronounces it differently form anyone that would see it in Tokyo and my wife pronounces it differently as well. But still the best way to track down anything CMA is by written character. In China you may have the same character may be pronounced different in different areas but it generally has the same meaning. Wing Chun in Traditional Chinese is 詠春 Simplified is 咏春 and in Mandarin it is Yong Chun Quan and Cantonese it is Wing Chun

You can also have translation errors of the spoken Mandarin in places like Jilin. My Sanda Sifu is form North China near Jilin and my wife is from Beijing and if you ask them to say Sanda my wife says sanda my sifu says Shanda and my wife says he has a north people accent.

Videos may or may not help if you look at certain sections of forms of Changquan or Tong Bei and certain forms of White Crane you may think they are the same thing.

I do not think it is hopeless just that you may need more The fact that Yoon Young-hyun was in North China Prior to the Japanese invasion says there may in fact be a link and then it comes to what styles were popular in that area of China in that time since it does sound like there were a few Mongolian masters teaching the same style it is just that Chuan fa is not a style as much as it is a geographical description.

 

[Errant108]

Lee Won-Kuk's CMA connection actually appears to be Shotokan Karate. I have been unable to find any references to him learning any Chinese styles directly. He did study a Chinese translation of Funakoshi's book, that seems to be as close as he gets. An interesting point though, one of the early names Lee considered was Hwa Soo Do (Way of the Flowering Fist). This is a lot like the name of a substyle of Changquan, Huaquan (Flower Fist).

You're information is incorrect here.

You're confusing Hwang Gi and Yi Wonguk. Hwang Gi is the one who traveled to Manchuria, studied a Chinese translation of a karate manual (we are not sure who wrote that manual), studied Changquan and Taijiquan, and named his first style Hwasudo.

 

[Errant108]

Chuan-fa is Mandarin I believe with is North China but not native to Jilin

But if I remember correctly Chuan Fa is also associated with Kenpo/Kempo so that is not proof of much

The Chinese characters 拳法 are pronounced:

Cantonese: Kyunfaat
Mandarin: Quanfa
Korean: Gwonbeop
Japanese: Kempo

But from what I read Yoon Young-hyun took his family to Manchuria Pre-Japanese invasion of Manchuria so he could have learned CMA in Manchuria. But a Mongolian teaching quan fa tells us little actually as to what style it actually was. But I do doubt form looking at the pictures that it was Mongolian wrestling as I mentioned previously

You run to lot of problems with Pre-Mao stuff due to the written Chinese, it is not simplified which gives to a lot of translation errors today unless you have someone trained in Traditional Chinese and those are not as common as you would think today in or out of China.

Traditional Chinese is still used in Taiwan and Korea. I can only read traditional, not simplified.

You can also have translation errors of the spoken Mandarin in places like Jilin. My Sanda Sifu is form North China near Jilin and my wife is from Beijing and if you ask them to say Sanda my wife says sanda my sifu says Shanda and my wife says he has a north people accent.

That's not a translation error. It's a regional accent or dialect. The characters and meanings stay the same.

I do not think it is hopeless just that you may need more The fact that Yoon Young-hyun was in North China Prior to the Japanese invasion says there may in fact be a link and then it comes to what styles were popular in that area of China in that time since it does sound like there were a few Mongolian masters teaching the same style it is just that Chuan fa is not a style as much as it is a geographical description.

Quanfa just means Chinese boxing. It just means that he was learning martial arts.