Killing Techniques of WC

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Eru Il繙vatar

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Skinter, my post was directed at Yoshi and Yoshi alone, but I'll do my best to clarify what I ment even further.

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The point was that I hope you don't maim/kill somebody, who got into a fight with you, for no real reason. That person could have their whole life ahead of him and maybe just had a bad day and ended up in a fight with you.
and what about the life of yosh? there might be a day when anyone has to fight for their life,and happens everyday.you say it in the way he wants to kill someone.

That is true. I see you haven't read/haven't understood my post. I'm saying that one should react appropriately, thats all. And yes, he said on other threads that he would kill anyone who attacked him. See my previous post for clarification.

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one of the major points of WC, I feel, is reacting to the problem/attack with the appropriate force/just the force that is needed to handle the problem at hand while doing it in a very straightforward way.
this is your personal point of veiw, and has statisticly no real evidence,that this kind of calm measured almost mythical approach really works,and in the real world violence that is hard fast and decisive,going all in,usualy gets the job done.

How many people have you killed with your "all in" method? Anyway... You are right I have no eveidence about this. This is merely my thought about WC after years of training. You call this a mystical approach; I didn't say it it is easy, but if you care to look at the principals/maxims of WC you will see they are basicly saying what I'm saying. It is also true that WC has a connection with Buddhist philosophy. I don't realy see what you don't agree/don't understand here?

But yes, agressivenes probably is one of the most important factors that determines victory if thats what you ment?

BTW, indeed that is only my personal point of view, that is why I added the "I feel" part to clarify that. But you seemed to miss it.

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there is a time and place for deadly force but WC is not about killing/maiming even tho it has killing/maiming techniques. Think about it.
you can never pick the TIME or PLACE when to fight for your life.how absurd.how can it have killing techniques,and not be about it?

That is true. Did I claim otherwise? Again I don't see what your problem is. About my absurd claim; is basketball about dribling becouse it has dribling in it? Is school about mathematchis? I could go on and on, but I will not insult your inteligence with that as I'm sure you know what I mean. The lethal techniques are just tools in your toolbox and becouse they are in your toolbox doesn't mean you have to kill everybody when using the tools from the toolbox on them. Does that sound more clear?

To put it into WC context; some lineages regard Biu tze as an "emergency form"(I would rather just call it an advanced form tho) from which techniques should only be used when absolutely necesery-thus the "emergency". They probably say this becouse many techniques in the BT form could be used as maiming techniques. Just becouse they are there doesn't mean WC is all about killing. It just means that it has an answer to one more question/to one more "level of difficulty" so to speak.

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I usualy don't respond to posts I don't agree with just to make them understand my opinion
yes you do.we all do

Ok, I guess you are right. Well, I am responding to your post and I don't agree with you/don't know what your trying to tell me.

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The "fact" that WC was created for killing is your opinion. By which you are acctualy dumbfying the art.
you remark in absolutes,as in the absolute truth.and where is his right to opinion?

I was merely responding to his statement about those who feel WC is not an art about killing are dumbing the art or something in this context. He has hi right to an opinion ofcourse :) But if he kills a guy who just punched him I'm sure his opinion will be heard only by psychiatrists.

And what about my right to an opinion LOL?!

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The funny thing is that when I first started training, I came to my instructur with this same article(and others) and asked him what he thinks about this plusible examples of WC history. He said something along the lines that WC is to smart and too complex to have been developed in a time of war by soldiers or by thiefs and assasins by uneducated people.
. I didn't think much of the answer. But now some yoears later I'm starting to see truth in that more and more.
may i suggest your first gut instinct was right.

You may. Wich is your humble opinion ofcourse :)

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It's a thinking mans art(heard that before?).
once to many.

But I get the feeling you don't understand this/don't agree with it?

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Also the connections between Buddhist philosophy and WC are so severe that it's not likely a coincidence. C'mon, they even put in 2 Sam Bai Fut sections in 2 forms! Sam Bai Fut meaning the three bows to Buddha! Each bow having it's meaning.
again,even further removed from reality,and boarders on the religous.

I have no idea why you say that. It's acctualy quite a fact. About it being religeous...Hm, well I could tell you how Buddhist theories correlate with modern science and with things such as the theory of relativety and with Einsteins mass-energy equivalence and much more. But I won't becouse I don't like you :)

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As for your fight experience... Yoshi! I'm not talking about fights in high school or at Gym class. Neither you being in a gang and beating up people. The fact that you were jumped by 10-20 people and survived tells me two things: either you are the best fighter I have ever heard of, or we have totaly diffrent definitions of a fight. I take it you have never been in a fight on the street, where somebody you didn't know wanted to hurt you badly? I had "fights" in high school and elementary school to, but sparring sessions I do this days are more intense/dangerous than thos "fights".
i suggest you ARE talking about fights in highschool or gym class,as you refer it to your own experience.the fact he survived being jumped on,tells me he was extemely lucky,to get out in one peice. also your sparring sessions being harder than scraps at school is hardly difficult eh ?

we have all had scraps and slaps while in school but thats all they were petty scraps.compare this with a 16 stone drunk man,smashing up the place and he wants some,ever had that ?

I'm confused about what your trying to make me see. Again... You can call it lucky, I will call it: "not a fight".
 

skinters

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The fights in highschool wasn't me being in a gang. Infact i stayed from gangs. All my friends were Ma's or wrestlers. But ne way. This group of crips like to pick on people. after or first two confrontation they were less likely to all out jump us. They were cautious. As for surviving...they couldnt touch me for real because most of the time I was running. Throwing people who got to close. Blocking an trapping their guards an sweeping their legs. After hitting the ground an my other buddy pounding them with his massive fist...they loss the will to fight.

lol@ massive fist.

could read your stories all day mucker.
 

Nolerama

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Could this thread be Yoshiyahu's version of a "killing technique?"

Because this post+my brain=burning and stinging.

:barf:
 

skinters

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Skinter, my post was directed at Yoshi and Yoshi alone, but I'll do my best to clarify what I ment even further.

so you can pompously,posture in front of everyone,and further ridicule him ?you know whatever he comes back with is going to be slightly unorthodox.also you never said it was for his eyes only.

That is true. I see you haven't read/haven't understood my post.

how can you say it is true,and i have not understood it the same time?it dont make sense .i have understood where your coming from perfectly fine.

How many people have you killed with your "all in" method?

none,it just gets the job done.

You are right I have no eveidence about this.

we agree on something.

but if you care to look at the principals/maxims of WC you will see they are basicly saying what I'm saying. It is also true that WC has a connection with Buddhist philosophy. I don't realy see what you don't agree/don't understand here?

the principles of WC are there to be adapted and changed to suit each person,afer all wingchun is seen by many as constantly changing to adapt to modern ways of thinking,and not stagnated.i am not a practising buddist but the connection hardly religious,although you use those overtones,which imo totaly out of context.

But yes, agressivenes probably is one of the most important factors that determines victory if thats what you ment?

BTW, indeed that is only my personal point of view, that is why I added the "I feel" part to clarify that. But you seemed to miss it.

you agree at first,then spoil it with the,i seem to miss it comment,i miss nothing.

That is true. Did I claim otherwise? Again I don't see what your problem is. About my absurd claim; is basketball about dribling becouse it has dribling in it? Is school about mathematchis? I could go on and on, but I will not insult your inteligence with that as I'm sure you know what I mean. The lethal techniques are just tools in your toolbox and becouse they are in your toolbox doesn't mean you have to kill everybody when using the tools from the toolbox on them. Does that sound more clear?

yes you did claim otherwise.again i dont have a problem,i hope you realise that anything you say in here can and will be reponded to even if it is not quite what you want to hear.i could also go on but unlike yourself i will not as i am sure you know what i mean.

To put it into WC context; some lineages regard Biu tze as an "emergency form"(I would rather just call it an advanced form tho) from which techniques should only be used when absolutely necesery-thus the "emergency". They probably say this becouse many techniques in the BT form could be used as maiming techniques. Just becouse they are there doesn't mean WC is all about killing. It just means that it has an answer to one more question/to one more "level of difficulty" so to speak.

what happened to not insulting my intelligence?:wink2:
 

skinters

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I was merely responding to his statement about those who feel WC is not an art about killing are dumbing the art or something in this context. He has hi right to an opinion ofcourse :) But if he kills a guy who just punched him I'm sure his opinion will be heard only by psychiatrists.

i think on the whole he as taken it quite well being refered to as psychotic.why respond to anyone you feel incapable of fitting into your world view.

And what about my right to an opinion LOL?!

well hopefully your opinions wont be met with psychotic remarks.

But I get the feeling you don't understand this/don't agree with it?

well regarding the ol nugget that wingchun is a thinking mans game,im a uneducated S.O.B,and my wingchun is excellent.

I have no idea why you say that. It's acctualy quite a fact. About it being religeous...Hm, well I could tell you how Buddhist theories correlate with modern science and with things such as the theory of relativety and with Einsteins mass-energy equivalence and much more. But I won't becouse I don't like you

it just dont sit well with me,there are other religions who practice wingchun,again it is completly out of context with the thread.

I'm confused about what your trying to make me see. Again... You can call it lucky, I will call it: "not a fight".
call it what you like,it wont matter to your attacker,you fight to survive,everything is not walker texas ranger.
 
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Yoshiyahu

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No, in sixth grade to eight grade the click was a bunch of wrestlers mostly...no gang affiliation. We mostly did pranks, had large sparring matches. Nothing in that grade that really sent someone to hospital. Now in HS that was different. Their were gang members there. I was not one of them though...I would look kinda of funny in gang...i like to wear all sorts of colors except for pink...

lol...


I was never jumped into a clique. But one time I was almost jumped for not being with certain people...who felt were gang members.


aren't fighting drunks annoying? LOL. they kill my buzz.
hey, when you were jumped into your clique in 8th grade.....were the people you were jumping Crips?
 
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Yoshiyahu

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My post turn into a post about killing drunks. Going out an becoming an assasin or just going out an being serial killer.

I was simply asking if other Kwoons teach these techniques or supress them?


An what peoples opinions are on these techniques.

They are starting to burn my brain too I am with you buddy. But since I started the post I feel obligated to objectifiy my post by responding.


Wow they make me seem i am a monster...Like the guy in the movie Return of swordsman. He would kill anyone who fought...even his family and friends. Just to prove his Sword play was the best.

Talk about crazy...

Could this thread be Yoshiyahu's version of a "killing technique?"

Because this post+my brain=burning and stinging.

:barf:
 

Si-Je

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I think killing techniques would be taught far later in one's training. Sifu hasn't taught any to his students yet because they haven't gotten that far into WC yet.
I've been studying 3-4 years (a year off for being preggerz. :) ) and he's only shown a couple of stuff, mainly punching the third lumbar in the neck, that would do it on a "shoot in". But, we don't emphasize that too often. My other instructor did alot. He's nasty that way, lol! Mexican tatoo's and all things aside, I thing that is knowledge that should only be available to the serious and committed martial artist. Not just any joe blow student that comes in the door.
 

Sandstorm

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I think killing techniques would be taught far later in one's training..

Err...........:confused:

Sifu hasn't taught any to his students yet because they haven't gotten that far into WC yet..

You are kidding, right?

I've been studying 3-4 years (a year off for being preggerz. :) ) and he's only shown a couple of stuff, mainly punching the third lumbar in the neck, that would do it on a "shoot in". But, we don't emphasize that too often. My other instructor did alot. He's nasty that way, lol! Mexican tatoo's and all things aside, I thing that is knowledge that should only be available to the serious and committed martial artist. Not just any joe blow student that comes in the door.


Ok, so, what you are saying is that your instructors actually 'teach' you how to kill? Am I reading this right? I mean, I saw you say that your current teacher doesn't have students at a 'high enough level' to learn how to kill (whatever the hell that means). Are you saying that when they reach a certain standard, he is actually going to teach them how to kill?

Pretty much any art has techniques that kill. Students are more than aware of the dangers of specific techniques, and any instructor worth his/her salt will endeavour to educate the students on the 'dangers' of application of techniques.
There is no reason or logic behind an instructor specifically teaching 'kill' techniques to everyday man. The military, yes, of course. There is absolutely no need for anyone to be teaching people the specifics of how to kill in a public facility.
You say that you only think this sort of knowledge should only be available to commited students. IMO, it doesn't matter what level you're at, there is no need to specifically teach people how to kill.
 
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Eru Il繙vatar

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so you can pompously,posture in front of everyone,and further ridicule him ?you know whatever he comes back with is going to be slightly unorthodox.also you never said it was for his eyes only.

If I were posturing infront of people I would make sure to use my real name so I could take all the credit :) I don't know why you say that tho. Look, I have nothing against unorthodox, the thing that bothered me was the statement that he would kill anyone who attacked him and he would feel no remorse for it. And no, I do not aprove of that kind of thinking. Killing people is bad lol :)

how can you say it is true,and i have not understood it the same time?it dont make sense .i have understood where your coming from perfectly fine.

I agreed with what you were saying. But the fact that you were convincing me into something I am allready saying makes me think that you either haven't read my post or haven't understood it. Does that make sense now? And no you haven't understood my previous post. If you would have you would have understood that my comments refered to Yoshis overexagerated, hypothetical responses to being attacked-killing people. Clearly not necesery in every kind of attack but thats what he's saying.

none,it just gets the job done.

Ok, then you agree that killing people isn't necesery to defend yourself in most attacks. Morality and ethics could be involved too but those things are very subjective so I won't go there. But would you agree then, that killing people when not necesery is unnecesery lol? :)

we agree on something.

Look, if you want evidence, look at anyone who uses WC. Thats some evidence for you. Again I think your missing my point. I didn't say it is easy. Neither did I say one can master it completely, but thats the beuty of WC to me :) One can allways improve, even after 60years of training.

the principles of WC are there to be adapted and changed to suit each person,afer all wingchun is seen by many as constantly changing to adapt to modern ways of thinking,and not stagnated.i am not a practising buddist but the connection hardly religious,although you use those overtones,which imo totaly out of context.

In my personal opinion that is not true. Techniques could/can be adapted to the individual. The fact is we are not compltely the same-thus we can't all fight the same. But principals shouldn't be changed as that would no longer be WC then. What principal would you change? The shortest path from A to B is a straight line? Use the nearest weapon to strike the nearest target? Don't use force against force?

I think Jeet Kune Do would be more suited for you. Sincerrely. Try it out. Read the Tao of Jeet Kune Do if you haven't. Great book!

The things I say about Buddhism seem out of context to you only becouse you don't understand them. But belive they do coralate. Try reading something about Buddhism, you might like it. It's acctualy very straightforward and no-boolsheet in it's phylosophy. BTW, ask your Si-Fu about Sam Bai Fut and what does it mean.

you agree at first,then spoil it with the,i seem to miss it comment,i miss nothing.

I wrote that becouse you toled me with such pride that I have noi real evidence for that and that is only my opinion but I allready made it clear that that is only my opinion. I can only conclude that you missed it lol. You the unmissable one! :)

yes you did claim otherwise.again i dont have a problem,i hope you realise that anything you say in here can and will be reponded to even if it is not quite what you want to hear.i could also go on but unlike yourself i will not as i am sure you know what i mean.

No :) I haven't :) Honestly, all I wanted to do with my post was to make Yoshi see that killing is not the answer in every attack. And please do go on as I do not know what you mean.

what happened to not insulting my intelligence?:wink2:

So you agree? Whats the problem then? What is acctualy bothering you in my posts? Are you arguing yourself? Please tell me on which points you don't agree instead of critisising my posts. Explain where you feel I'm in error and what is your position on this things.

i think on the whole he as taken it quite well being refered to as psychotic.why respond to anyone you feel incapable of fitting into your world view.

Again, I felt the need to point out that killing people should not be taken lightley. I still don't know if you agree with Yoshi, me or are just arguing with yourself. It seems to me your just trolling and critisising my posts. Instead of that please inlight me with your opinion, don't just tell me how far off I'm with my way of thinking.

well hopefully your opinions wont be met with psychotic remarks.

I don't care realy. But again, stop just critisising and trolling. I expect you to at least tell me whats your position on the subject if you feel that all I say is wrong? Do you agree with Yoshi? Killing a 60 kg teenager who attacks you with fists is OK?

well regarding the ol nugget that wingchun is a thinking mans game,im a uneducated S.O.B,and my wingchun is excellent.

Thats great! My WC on the other hand still needs a lot of work.

it just dont sit well with me,there are other religions who practice wingchun,again it is completly out of context with the thread.

What are you saying here? I never said Buddhism practices WC? I just said that there are clrearly strong influences from Buddhist philosophy in WC. You see it out of context becouse as you yourself mentioned you don't know much about Buddhism.

call it what you like,it wont matter to your attacker,you fight to survive,everything is not walker texas ranger.

Now thats a shocker :) Look, I never said that killing maiming strikes shouldn't be used. I would use them myself if necesery/if I felt they were necesery, but using them just becouse you can is kind of...hm...unnecesery.

In conclusion to my long post I would like to say that you are a troll :) Please tell me your opinion on the subject! I look forward in reading it! But I will quit playing this game with you becouse our ways of thinking are clearly not compatible to say the least :) Criticise all you want, this is my last response to you on this thread.

Enjoy!
 

Si-Je

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I learned several kill moves just taking Japanese Ju-Jitsu. Plenty of simple neck breaks, it's part of martial arts. And it's not that hard.
Learning how NOT to kill, that's where the challenge is.

I don't see why your getting so upset. And no, it's not about a student "proving their salt" or whatever. It depends on the person and their needs and how long they plan to comit to taking martial arts. I've known several martial artist that know how to kill quickly and easily from several different arts.
Would you want to empart that knowledge to someone who's probably only going to take the class for a few months or a couple of years, or would you rather have a long time student who you've gotten to know very well, watched them for several years and know who and what they really are to teach such serious techniques too? Or would you rather just teach everyone who waltzes through the door?
My Sifu and I are very close and we know eachother very well. If he decides I may 'need" to know killing moves, that's his personal decision. He's the one that went through learning much of that stuff in the U.S.M.C and all that was was a mixture of a bunch of arts thrown in together. They took all the easy to learn KILLING moves and more practical moves out of each art and bam, you have a well trained soldier.
Why is it do you think, I do not have a right or have earned the trust of Sensi's and Sifu's to teach me killing moves? Or someone else that has trained and loves, and values and MA over a large portion of their life time? You become a martial artist, and you learn the code of ethos taught by your teachers and their teachers, and your own heart.
So, someone could buy guns and shoot to kill even in self defense where they have the right to defend themselves and this is okay?! When a stray bullet kills the child sleeping in the apartment next to you, or down the street as you shoot someone who is trying to kill or rape or rob you? And it's NOT okay for a person to know when it kill and when it's needed and when it's not? Whereas you could kill in SD and not harm another with some stray bullet or wandering knife? So, civilians have no need to learn this stuff? Or their not worthy because their not law enforcement or military?
Very odd.
So, as a civy, I can shoot someone in the eye, but I can't break their neck when their trying to rape me. Neato.

I guess each to their own. This is a hotbead of a controversial topic. Good one to talk about. Each martial artist must think about and come to terms with this issue. Whether or not you actually learn specific kill techniques when you use WC in the street or in SD you can still easily kill someone. Killing is easy. Your power in your punching could be stronger than you know with adrenalin pumping or the guy could have a bad heart, or other condition. When you go out there punching, kicking, and fighting people a good blow to the head can easily kill. You could chainpunch them to the ground and they fall on something sharp, or blunt (that maybe breaks their back, crippling or killing them). In fighting there is always the chance of death, especially in SD. Which is what WC/WT is all about. Realistic self defense.

Do you think it's realistic self defense if someone is bound and determined to KILL YOU and all you do is slap them around awhile? That you don't return the favor? That you don't give the fight all you've got to survive?
Hey, it's your life. And this is mine.
I'll learn whatever people will teach me and use it with discression. But, at least I'll know that if I need it it's there. And most likely I won't need it, so it's all good!
 
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Yoshiyahu

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Sorry buddy for bringing you into this conversation. As for your one statement. You said the way I brought about the topic. I humbly asked you how could I have presented the topic more suitable for mass consumption. I merely wanted to get a convo out there about killing Techs. One thing I accomplish was to those who didn't know there are these techniques in WC and every other art now they know. An knowing is half the battle.

lol@ massive fist.

could read your stories all day mucker.

i think on the whole he as taken it quite well being refered to as psychotic.why respond to anyone you feel incapable of fitting into your world view.



well hopefully your opinions wont be met with psychotic remarks.



well regarding the ol nugget that wingchun is a thinking mans game,im a uneducated S.O.B,and my wingchun is excellent.



it just dont sit well with me,there are other religions who practice wingchun,again it is completly out of context with the thread.

call it what you like,it wont matter to your attacker,you fight to survive,everything is not walker texas ranger.


AS for Eru Il繳vatar In other post on another thread. When i brought the topic up I believe the thread was when to use excessive force. I may have worded it wrong. I don't debilbrately meditate on using my Art to kill anyone who wants to fight me. I said along time ago. Mostly I will walk away. If someone punch me in the face like one time I would still try to get out of the fight. I would either talk my way out of it or walk backwards out of it.

Now if that didn't work then maybe I would fight. But lets say its guy my size are smaller. I am not going to try to dislodge his heart from his chest. I am not going to try to use a controlling technique to get in posistion of his back so I can snap his neck. No I would mostly keep my distance. Throw some kicks and try to get him winded. I may even hit him with chain punches,torque punches to nose. Palm strikes to sides of face and chops to neck or throat to stun him. Not all out breaking power...but enough to make him not want to fight.

Now for a guy bigger than me. Him I will seriously try to hurt. Out of fear mostly. I might kill him on accident. But not purposely. I would definitely attack his pressure points. But my main intial targets would be his knees with low kicks. His shins with low kicks. If I could get him into a arm lock where he is put into a submissive posistion standing up I than I would try to break his arm or snap it out of socket to end the fight. Mostly my punches would be for nose.

Now if it was group of guys. Or someone trying to rob me or do me serious harm with a weapon or what not. An I felt I had no escape or I had people to protect. That individual I would think twice. My goal would be to knock him unconscious by hitting him the back of head which is also a killing point. Palm striking his nose really hard which could dislodge his bone into his brain if I hit at the wrong angle. I may try to stick my thumb in his eye. I may try hard strikes to his throats and phoenix punches to certain parts of his face and head.

If there multiple attackers(4 or more). I would do the same along with trying to quickly break something on any of them that got to close to me if I could. I would always aim for the throat,middle of eyes,nose with punches and palms. Kicks to groin when possible. An try to break in the knee caps if I could. Even if I can't break in their legs. Atleast they will be sore. An if I get a chance to run. They cant give chase.

But No sir...I am sorry if worded a statement wrong to imply any blow joe who comes to fight me is going to be killed. I don't need WC to kill with. I run someone over with my car. Hit them on top of their head with my baseball bat. Hit them in the head with baoding ball in sock. stab them with a hard metal fountain pen in throat. There are always ways to kill with out WC. Screwdrivers make great weapons.

But I don't live and breath who I gotta kill each day. If I had to kill to defend my home or my booty. No, I wouldn't have nightmares about killing them. I might have nightmares about almost dying or getting rape...But not about killing someone who hated me that they wanted me dead.


Let me reinterate this face...


I DO NOT BELIEVE The only purpose of Wing Chun is to kill people with.

I Do not believe Wing Chun is only about Tan Sau. No you have other techniques

I do not believe Wing Chun is only about Softness or Internal boxing No you have external and hard aspects of WC too.

I do not believe WC is only about fighting. No WC is also about being fit and healthy.

I do not believe WC is only for lazy people who don't want to train hard an get in better shape. True WC will make you stronger,more flexible,more stamina,more sensitive,more humble and yes possible a better fighter or killer. But its not about one thing alone. If thats what you get from me. I am sorry. It seems when I post a thread It appears that I am saying WC is only one way.

WC is not all about striking...you have throws and sweeps and even joint locks.

WC is not all about using your hands. You have kicks too.

Do you see what I am saying yet?
 

skinters

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In conclusion to my long post I would like to say that you are a troll :) Please tell me your opinion on the subject! I look forward in reading it! But I will quit playing this game with you becouse our ways of thinking are clearly not compatible to say the least :) Criticise all you want, this is my last response to you on this thread.

Enjoy!

An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2]

you would do better to examine your posts a bit closer.
 
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Yoshiyahu

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Err...........:confused:
IMO, it doesn't matter what level you're at, there is no need to specifically teach people how to kill.


My Question is why not?

Hey ERU?

But would you agree then, that killing people when not necesery is unnecesery lol? :)

I agree actually your right on point here!

No :) I haven't :) Honestly, all I wanted to do with my post was to make Yoshi see that killing is not the answer in every attack. And please do go on as I do not know what you mean.


Eru I actually agree on this point too. For instance with my drunk cousin. When ever we had altercations I usually just deflected and intercepted his attacks with out actually hurting him. If he ever got into chi sau range I would probably just drop him or swept him.

don't care realy. But again, stop just critisising and trolling. I expect you to at least tell me whats your position on the subject if you feel that all I say is wrong? Do you agree with Yoshi? Killing a 60 kg teenager who attacks you with fists is OK?


Eru I never said this!

Now thats a shocker :) Look, I never said that killing maiming strikes shouldn't be used. I would use them myself if necesery/if I felt they were necesery, but using them just becouse you can is kind of...hm...unnecesery.


You are correct killing for the fun of it or just because you can is totally wrong Eru. An I haven't killed any one. So we are actually in agreement on that. But If I had to kill or felt it was necessary then I would use what techniques I had to. But that would be only after my first three options failed to work.

1.Talk my way out of it or Walk away.
2.Call the police.
3.Kick him in the nuts and run.

Now if someone body was like they wanna beat me up because they like me...it depends...is it a large group of them? Is it one on one. Is it someone bigger and stronger than me capable of killing me. Is it a thug or robber or mugger? Is some little kid? Is it friend? Is a person with a history of assualt or murder? Is someone who crazy or deranged? All these things play a part in my reaction to them. Plus just because you know how to kill doesn't mean you have the chance to use them in the heat of battle. Plus if you subdue your foe by other means why kill them. Simply run away. Now if you can't run away. An afraid that this person will knock you out an snap your neck or stomp you while your down. Then maybe you should do what you can to kill them or knock them out. But knocking them out will more than likely happen first.

But if you can't do either atleast hurt them really bad so you can run away.


But I am sorry I seem to have peed you off royally Eru. This topic really angers you. Thats not my intention at all. As for killing sprees. I have weapons I could kill with easily. I don't readily use them even in the streets. If I do use them its mainly to slow or stun them so I can hurt them with less lethal technique. Now my knives in street fight with like 4 or more guys. One of them might be dead. I am not going to even give them a chance to hurt me on get me down. I am going for blood if its 4 or more and corner or surrounded. I would simply try to cut one so I could run away if they gave chase I would stop an cut some more. That way I don't have to worry about getting winded. An maybe jog so more away. If they keep chasing I would stand an fight an try to hopefully take out some of their rage or desire for confrontation. Maybe they would disperse or relent. But four or more guys. No my friend. Using techniques to preserve their life are not going through my head.

If I was to kill it would not be out of "Just because I can." It would be out of fear of getting hurt. Thats why I always wanted to take martial arts as a kid. Because I was afraid of someone hurting me. So out of fear of being maimed or killed or worse. I would kill with out remorse thats me. Maybe you think I crazy but like you said every one is different. An we are not a monolith.



Si-Je post below is the point I was trying to make. I do not always express things well with my words. But this is main point.


Do you think it's realistic self defense if someone is bound and determined to KILL YOU and all you do is slap them around awhile? That you don't return the favor? That you don't give the fight all you've got to survive?
Hey, it's your life. And this is mine.
I'll learn whatever people will teach me and use it with discression. But, at least I'll know that if I need it it's there. And most likely I won't need it, so it's all good!
 
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Eru Il繙vatar

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Yoshi, when you put it like that, we're more like minded on the subject than I thought. I apologise if I judged you wrongly. But you must admit that the wording that you chose made it seem that when your in a fight your in for a kill.

I'm glad we sorted this out! On a forum things can be missinterpreted easily and we're not mindreaders. But as I said it seems we're on the same page so to speak.
 

Sandstorm

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I learned several kill moves just taking Japanese Ju-Jitsu. Plenty of simple neck breaks, it's part of martial arts. And it's not that hard.
Learning how NOT to kill, that's where the challenge is.

I think most of the people on these boards know how to 'kill'. The emphasis is not on the techniques themselves, it's in the instructor actually 'teaching to kill' in the classroom. This is where I have an issue.

I don't see why your getting so upset.
I'd call it surprised, rather than upset:)

And no, it's not about a student "proving their salt" or whatever. It depends on the person and their needs and how long they plan to comit to taking martial arts. I've known several martial artist that know how to kill quickly and easily from several different arts.

Sorry, but I fail to see what difference that makes. So, in your view, if someone has spent the past 20-30 years in an art, they now have earned the right to learn 'kill' techniques?


Would you want to empart that knowledge to someone who's probably only going to take the class for a few months or a couple of years, or would you rather have a long time student who you've gotten to know very well, watched them for several years and know who and what they really are to teach such serious techniques too? Or would you rather just teach everyone who waltzes through the door?

I would rather be much more responsible as a teacher, and make sure that the classes I run are sensible, safe, realistic and free from fantastical techniques and dangerous theology. If you are teaching people to 'kill' in the class, you are subconciously preparing a mindest that is potentially lethal.

My Sifu and I are very close and we know eachother very well. If he decides I may 'need" to know killing moves, that's his personal decision.

I would seriously look at changing your teacher.

He's the one that went through learning much of that stuff in the U.S.M.C and all that was was a mixture of a bunch of arts thrown in together. They took all the easy to learn KILLING moves and more practical moves out of each art and bam, you have a well trained soldier.

Which is where, if anywhere, these techniques belong. Not in a high street dojo.

Why is it do you think, I do not have a right or have earned the trust of Sensi's and Sifu's to teach me killing moves?

He has probably tought you moves that can kill already, since your first day. Why take it to specifics?

Or someone else that has trained and loves, and values and MA over a large portion of their life time? You become a martial artist, and you learn the code of ethos taught by your teachers and their teachers, and your own heart.

Absolutely


So, someone could buy guns and shoot to kill even in self defense where they have the right to defend themselves and this is okay?! When a stray bullet kills the child sleeping in the apartment next to you, or down the street as you shoot someone who is trying to kill or rape or rob you? And it's NOT okay for a person to know when it kill and when it's needed and when it's not? Whereas you could kill in SD and not harm another with some stray bullet or wandering knife? So, civilians have no need to learn this stuff? Or their not worthy because their not law enforcement or military?

So, on the off-chance that one of those events might occur, your instructor feels it necessary to teach you specific 'Kill' techniques, just in case?



Very odd.
So, as a civy, I can shoot someone in the eye, but I can't break their neck when their trying to rape me. Neato.

You can do as you feel fit, and face whatever legal repurcussions.


I guess each to their own. This is a hotbead of a controversial topic. Good one to talk about. Each martial artist must think about and come to terms with this issue. Whether or not you actually learn specific kill techniques when you use WC in the street or in SD you can still easily kill someone. Killing is easy. Your power in your punching could be stronger than you know with adrenalin pumping or the guy could have a bad heart, or other condition. When you go out there punching, kicking, and fighting people a good blow to the head can easily kill. You could chainpunch them to the ground and they fall on something sharp, or blunt (that maybe breaks their back, crippling or killing them). In fighting there is always the chance of death, especially in SD. Which is what WC/WT is all about. Realistic self defense.

Precisely, so why learn specifics (again:rolleyes:)


Do you think it's realistic self defense if someone is bound and determined to KILL YOU and all you do is slap them around awhile? That you don't return the favor? That you don't give the fight all you've got to survive?
Hey, it's your life. And this is mine.
I'll learn whatever people will teach me and use it with discression. But, at least I'll know that if I need it it's there. And most likely I won't need it, so it's all good!

Hey, if this is all it takes to stop the assault, then I'm up for it. I will endeavour to do anything I need to survive, of course, but the last thing on my mind is wanting to kill someone. It would need to be extreme circumstances for me to even contemplate ending someones life in civvy street. These are personal choices based on experience.
 
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Yoshiyahu

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No matter what Skinters and Eru this topic seems to be very hot an heated. Even those who are not arguing against me have something to say.


I simply wanted to share that I don't think killing techniques in WC are such a big deal. True someone could kill someone with it. But even with Killing techniques being taught if you practice long enough an read an study other arts as well you will figure out how to kill with your WC eventually.

Plus its much easier for me to shoot someone close range or with a automatic weapon I can buy from the hood than to kill them with my bare hands. With a illegal weapon that you can throw away an also buy silencer for you will have less evidence pointing back to you. With a close of kill with your bare hands your bound to leave dna evidence.




But this is such a hot topic. I want to keep the discussion open with a posistive light. I merely think guns and knives are more readily accessible if you want to kill someone. My Sidai keeps two knives on his sides that he can flip open at any time an kill someone with.

But he hasn't killed anyone yet that I know of. But he would use his knives before trying to snap someones neck. I think training certain kungs gives you advantage against would be attackers who have knives,guns,or large group of people trying to get you. Thats my measily point. Sorry that My Approach leaves so many rattle cages. I am not endorsing going out an killing for fun guys. So if thats what you believe sorry for that. But as Sije posted the reason for learning killing Techs is my reasoning behind this thread! Self preservation.

But skinters its interesting many people hate this topic...but seem to love it so well!


They cant stay away!


An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2]

you would do better to examine your posts a bit closer.

My Question is why not?

Hey ERU?



I agree actually your right on point here!




Eru I actually agree on this point too. For instance with my drunk cousin. When ever we had altercations I usually just deflected and intercepted his attacks with out actually hurting him. If he ever got into chi sau range I would probably just drop him or swept him.




Eru I never said this!




You are correct killing for the fun of it or just because you can is totally wrong Eru. An I haven't killed any one. So we are actually in agreement on that. But If I had to kill or felt it was necessary then I would use what techniques I had to. But that would be only after my first three options failed to work.

1.Talk my way out of it or Walk away.
2.Call the police.
3.Kick him in the nuts and run.

Now if someone body was like they wanna beat me up because they like me...it depends...is it a large group of them? Is it one on one. Is it someone bigger and stronger than me capable of killing me. Is it a thug or robber or mugger? Is some little kid? Is it friend? Is a person with a history of assualt or murder? Is someone who crazy or deranged? All these things play a part in my reaction to them. Plus just because you know how to kill doesn't mean you have the chance to use them in the heat of battle. Plus if you subdue your foe by other means why kill them. Simply run away. Now if you can't run away. An afraid that this person will knock you out an snap your neck or stomp you while your down. Then maybe you should do what you can to kill them or knock them out. But knocking them out will more than likely happen first.

But if you can't do either atleast hurt them really bad so you can run away.


But I am sorry I seem to have peed you off royally Eru. This topic really angers you. Thats not my intention at all. As for killing sprees. I have weapons I could kill with easily. I don't readily use them even in the streets. If I do use them its mainly to slow or stun them so I can hurt them with less lethal technique. Now my knives in street fight with like 4 or more guys. One of them might be dead. I am not going to even give them a chance to hurt me on get me down. I am going for blood if its 4 or more and corner or surrounded. I would simply try to cut one so I could run away if they gave chase I would stop an cut some more. That way I don't have to worry about getting winded. An maybe jog so more away. If they keep chasing I would stand an fight an try to hopefully take out some of their rage or desire for confrontation. Maybe they would disperse or relent. But four or more guys. No my friend. Using techniques to preserve their life are not going through my head.

If I was to kill it would not be out of "Just because I can." It would be out of fear of getting hurt. Thats why I always wanted to take martial arts as a kid. Because I was afraid of someone hurting me. So out of fear of being maimed or killed or worse. I would kill with out remorse thats me. Maybe you think I crazy but like you said every one is different. An we are not a monolith.



Si-Je post below is the point I was trying to make. I do not always express things well with my words. But this is main point.

Eru Il繳vatar;1130197 said:
Yoshi, when you put it like that, we're more like minded on the subject than I thought. I apologise if I judged you wrongly. But you must admit that the wording that you chose made it seem that when your in a fight your in for a kill.

I'm glad we sorted this out! On a forum things can be missinterpreted easily and we're not mindreaders. But as I said it seems we're on the same page so to speak.
 

Si-Je

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It's a good topic and one that all martial artists should understand their moral position on right away. Especially if they are to train for a long time.

And yes, I would rather have a student that has trained with "my sifu" for many years (and he would too) before teaching such techniques. Really, with a very long time student over years would be taught to "finish the art", to give them a complete knowledge of the art. Is this for everyone? no. not everyone wants or needs to know or understand the entire art. Killing techniques included.

As for changing Sifu's, that's just not going to be happening. :) I'm stuck with the guy for life. Till death and all that...lol!

Other arts teaching killing techniques way early. I only took 3 years of JJJ and learned 5 different neck breaking techniques while only a year and a half in art. Woooo! That's pretty early for just anyone to know how to do that stuff. But, that was Shodai's call, it was his federation, and his charts. :)
It was neat to learn. Actually scared me to death just practicing them on someone, I didn't like it very much. But, I did appreciate learning how to do it.
Would I ever EVER use that stuff? Not without recieveing a severe beating first, being brought to my attention that there was no other way, someone trying to kill or kidnap my daughter, (yes, I will break a dude's neck trying to kidnap my daughter. For once he takes her I will kill him before I she's found in a ditch somewhere. reality sucks) if someone walks into my house with a gun or knife, they just might get killed if I can pull it off because I figure that's what their gonna do too. (plus, it's legal in my state to kill in all the situations I've stated.) You simply have to be in "fear of your life". So, lets end that please.
I don't break the law, or condone it.

But, what's been taught to me as killing move's in WC have been very few. I haven't learned Bui Gee yet. ;)
Coming soon to a Si-Je near you!
Working on some Biu Gee applications in chi sau and such, but not the form yet.
(hey, that's a little backwards, will ask Sifu about that.)
 
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Yoshiyahu

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Its a great thread everyone seems to love and hate. Your posting here actually gives precidence to this. Now you just help make it page number five or six.


This thread is 4 pages too long.


Very interesting Si-Je. Tell hubbie I said Simpre Fi!
 
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