kick training with leg weights?

[exile]

I've been incorporating progressively heavier leg/ankle weights into my kicking training for a while now and am curious to know if other MTers have found this twist on ordinary drills useful, and what their general experience with them has been. What are you trying to do with the weights? Has it been successful? How heavy have you gone? Have you experienced any injuries, or at least serious discomfort, as a result?

That sort of thing....

 

[IcemanSK]

I've stayed away from weights on my legs while doing full kicks. I don't want to risk undue stress to my joints & risk damaging them. Straight leg techniques (front stretch & side stretch kicks) are less risky, but I don't see that there is a huge benefit to using weights in doing these kicks.

 

[Drac]

I've stayed away from weights on my legs while doing full kicks. I don't want to risk undue stress to my joints & risk damaging them. Straight leg techniques (front stretch & side stretch kicks) are less risky, but I don't see that there is a huge benefit to using weights in doing these kicks.

Ya beat me to it Iceman...

 

[terryl965]

I agree with Iceman the extra wieght causes to much damage to ones joints.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I've stayed away from weights on my legs while doing full kicks. I don't want to risk undue stress to my joints & risk damaging them. Straight leg techniques (front stretch & side stretch kicks) are less risky, but I don't see that there is a huge benefit to using weights in doing these kicks.

Agreed

Several years ago I use to do taiji (slow) with ankle weights (there are kicks) and wrist weights until my sifu told me to stop. Basically I was developing external not internal so I stopped.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I agree with Iceman the extra wieght causes to much damage to ones joints.

It is hard to argue with that. Personally way back when I was younger I did train this way a few times with slow kicks but really I would say you gain very little and potentially risk some knee damage so I do not train or recommend training with leg weights.

 

[Guardian]

Well, I guess I'm the odd man odd here. I've trained with ankle weights on and off for over 20 years with no discomfort or injury at all and it's helped my speed and strength considerably.

Now, I'm not talking anything over 10-15lbs on each leg and not everyday, just twice a week (7 day period), so that might be the reason that injuries were not a problem for me.

I found that water workouts were more useful in building strength and speed though, but since water workouts are hard to find here, weights were a good substitute again.

To each their own though.

 

[Guardian]

Well, I guess I'm the odd man odd here. I've trained with ankle weights on and off for over 20 years with no discomfort or injury at all and it's helped my speed and strength considerably.

Now, I'm not talking anything over 10-15lbs on each leg and not everyday, just twice a week (7 day period), so that might be the reason that injuries were not a problem for me.

I found that water workouts were more useful in building strength and speed though, but since water workouts are hard to find here, weights were a good substitute again.

To each their own though.

Substitute the 2nd "Odd" with "Out"

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

When I was younger (teens) I trained with ankle and wrist weights but I did all the movements both slowly and mixed in isometric holds.
Then I took the weights off and did everything 3/4 speed, then at full speed.

This was only 2-3 xs a week, but it made a good difference.

I was also supervised when doing this.

 

[exile]

Well, I guess I'm the odd man out here. I've trained with ankle weights on and off for over 20 years with no discomfort or injury at all and it's helped my speed and strength considerably.

Now, I'm not talking anything over 10-15lbs on each leg and not everyday, just twice a week (7 day period), so that might be the reason that injuries were not a problem for me.

I found that water workouts were more useful in building strength and speed though, but since water workouts are hard to find here, weights were a good substitute again.

To each their own though.

When I was younger (teens) I trained with ankle and wrist weights but I did all the movements both slowly and mixed in isometric holds.
Then I took the weights off and did everything 3/4 speed, then at full speed.

This was only 2-3 xs a week, but it made a good difference.

I was also supervised when doing this.

The kinds of exercises Guardian and DFT are describing are exactly the sort of thing I've been doing. I don't use weights in training for force delivery (impact), but rather for hip flexor strength, knee musculature strength and especially balance. My routine in this respects usually consists of strapping two 10lb ankle weights around the kicking leg, performing a slow, balanced chamber, then rotation on the standing leg with rotation of the chambered kicking leg so the bent knee/leg assembly is parallel to the floor, and finally a very slow extension to full—and holding it there for at least 30 seconds. I'm trying to increase the hold, in smooth balance, to two minutes per leg; at that point, I'll probably try to figure out a way to add another ten pounds to the weight assembly. I'm very careful not to do any movements that will involve joint 'shock', and by 'full extension' I mean 99.5% extension; I keep the tiniest bit of bend in the knee at the very end.

My reasons for structuring the exercise this way are that

(i) hip flexors are very difficult to train in the usual 'weight-room' leg exercise regime; you have to actually do full kicks to get them strong enough to do full kicks, and the point is, if you get them strong enough to support a leg which is 20lbs heavier than it was previously, you are going to find supporting the actual weight, with the weights off, a piece of cake;

(ii) the extra weight really, seriously compromises your sense of balance at first, and you have to beef up your balance sense to be able to keep that much weight that far away from your body in consistent balance across a full extension—again, something that will stand you in very good stead when you're just kicking normally; and

(iii) while I agree heartily with people's concerns about joint safety, one thing that I learned when, many decades ago, I was having a problem with an eroding patella—it's a very common condition, apparently—was that heavy stress exercises to build up the knee joint muscle assembly had the effect of stabilizing the patella and keeping it from sliding around again the rest of the joint (which caused a really horrible aching pain, especially at night). My hope—and so far it seems to be working—is that there will be a kind of isometric effect (as DFT alludes to) that feeds not just growth of the hip flexor joint muscles, but of the knee group muscles as well, which will give extra protection to my legs in normal hard kicking.

I appreciate your feedback and cautions on this practice, folks, and believe me I'm not planning on attacking a heavy bag will malice aforethought while wearing leg weights... it's really still an experiment at this point....

 

[akskarate1]

If working isometric maybe, but I think it would be beneficial to spending time on correct anatomical alignment of each kick so not to create undo wear on your joints. Try working on the reverse motion of the kick, or hold the kick out at full extension for as long as you can. Uses you’re stretching as a guide for your range of motion try not to go beyond that until your flexibility increases. Between forms and bag work and or just walking on them your legs are strong enough.

 

[exile]

If working isometric maybe, but I think it would be beneficial to spending time on correct anatomical alignment of each kick so not to create undo wear on your joints. Try working on the reverse motion of the kick, or hold the kick out at full extension for as long as you can.

As I say, this is what I do, with a full 30 to 60 second hold, working my way up to two full minutes.

Uses you’re stretching as a guide for your range of motion try not to go beyond that until your flexibility increases.

No, and that's why I keep that slightest bend in the joint that I referred to. The kiss of death is hyperextension, but even just a small angle in the knee at the full extension phase should keep anything bad from happening.

Between forms and bag work and or just walking on them your legs are strong enough.

I do very heavy leg presses on a regular basis, so it's not strength per se I'm concerned about—it's the strength of the hip flexor muscles, which don't get particularly strong from the standard free weight routines I do for leg. And walking isn't going to add strength, though it will definitely help with maintenance. I follow a high-intensity program in my weight-lifting workouts, but this whole kick-training thing seems a bit different, because of the balance-training aspect of it; so here, I'm inclined to go more with the kind of isometric tactic involving 'frozen' kicks in fully extended position.

One other thing I've been experimenting with is trying to rotate a full 360º on the standing leg in the fully extended position with a single 10lb weight on, without letting the extended leg lose any altitude. It's not easy.... I figure I'll get there eventually.

Interestingly enough, I've yet to experience any pain or discomfort in the frozen-position kicking leg in any of these weighted-ankle exercises I've been doing... but the standing leg is at times definitely not happy! I've some ideas about why that might be, but it's not at all what I expected.... :idunno:

 

[HelloKitty]

I've been incorporating progressively heavier leg/ankle weights into my kicking training for a while now and am curious to know if other MTers have found this twist on ordinary drills useful, and what their general experience with them has been. What are you trying to do with the weights? Has it been successful? How heavy have you gone? Have you experienced any injuries, or at least serious discomfort, as a result?

That sort of thing....

We have two fellow students using ankle weights (like 2 pounds) during regular classes and they have gained muscles so they can kick a little harder but at the same time they are heavier and slower. One of them has to leave them sometimes because his knees hurt sometimes. So I don't know if they are really doing the best work there. I know it can be very good but clearly in these 2 cases something else is needed.

 

[exile]

We have two fellow students using ankle weights (like 2 pounds) during regular classes and they have gained muscles so they can kick a little harder but at the same time they are heavier and slower. One of them has to leave them sometimes because his knees hurt sometimes. So I don't know if they are really doing the best work there. I know it can be very good but clearly in these 2 cases something else is needed.

I do think you have to be very careful not to actually kick hard while using the weights. You need to use them to increase hip flexor strength and your balance skills, but if using these weights during regular classes means, doing the standard drills and moves while wearing weights, then no, I think that's really asking for trouble. Slow, or stack, extended positions, full extension frozen kicks—that's the only context in which I would use weights. Way too risky to do rapid or ballistic movements with them on, even light ones.

 

[Guardian]

The kinds of exercises Guardian and DFT are describing are exactly the sort of thing I've been doing. I don't use weights in training for force delivery (impact), but rather for hip flexor strength, knee musculature strength and especially balance. My routine in this respects usually consists of strapping two 10lb ankle weights around the kicking leg, performing a slow, balanced chamber, then rotation on the standing leg with rotation of the chambered kicking leg so the bent knee/leg assembly is parallel to the floor, and finally a very slow extension to full—and holding it there for at least 30 seconds. I'm trying to increase the hold, in smooth balance, to two minutes per leg; at that point, I'll probably try to figure out a way to add another ten pounds to the weight assembly. I'm very careful not to do any movements that will involve joint 'shock', and by 'full extension' I mean 99.5% extension; I keep the tiniest bit of bend in the knee at the very end.

My reasons for structuring the exercise this way are that

(i) hip flexors are very difficult to train in the usual 'weight-room' leg exercise regime; you have to actually do full kicks to get them strong enough to do full kicks, and the point is, if you get them strong enough to support a leg which is 20lbs heavier than it was previously, you are going to find supporting the actual weight, with the weights off, a piece of cake;

(ii) the extra weight really, seriously compromises your sense of balance at first, and you have to beef up your balance sense to be able to keep that much weight that far away from your body in consistent balance across a full extension—again, something that will stand you in very good stead when you're just kicking normally; and

(iii) while I agree heartily with people's concerns about joint safety, one thing that I learned when, many decades ago, I was having a problem with an eroding patella—it's a very common condition, apparently—was that heavy stress exercises to build up the knee joint muscle assembly had the effect of stabilizing the patella and keeping it from sliding around again the rest of the joint (which caused a really horrible aching pain, especially at night). My hope—and so far it seems to be working—is that there will be a kind of isometric effect (as DFT alludes to) that feeds not just growth of the hip flexor joint muscles, but of the knee group muscles as well, which will give extra protection to my legs in normal hard kicking.

I appreciate your feedback and cautions on this practice, folks, and believe me I'm not planning on attacking a heavy bag will malice aforethought while wearing leg weights... it's really still an experiment at this point....

Thanks Exile, I usually don't go into detail in my explainations, a problem I have when I put something down, I appreciate the explaination of what I set out to accomplish with it.

 

[kidswarrior]

I do think you have to be very careful not to actually kick hard while using the weights. You need to use them to increase hip flexor strength and your balance skills, but if using these weights during regular classes means, doing the standard drills and moves while wearing weights, then no, I think that's really asking for trouble. Slow, or stack, extended positions, full extension frozen kicks—that's the only context in which I would use weights. Way too risky to do rapid or ballistic movements with them on, even light ones.

My view with my own students is we're all different, and what works for one may not for another, and etc. (in class, everyone does it my way, but it's individual, supplemental training I'm thinking of here). So, I'm glad this is working for you, Exile.

For myself, I use weights to target muscles which support old damaged joints (C-3 to C-5 in the neck; tendinitis in the right arm from a lifetime of military push ups, etc, ad nauseum). But for fighting strength and speed, I personally use body-weight stuff. Horse stance, anyone? Also, slow repetitions of the technique (1000 times slow, 1 time fast), sometimes against a resisting opponent. And forms have served me well. Don't know if that helps the discussion, but just my experience.

 

[YoungMan]

Stay away from leg weights while training, even light ones. Leg weights increase dramatically the amount of time it takes to stop a technique, and put added stress on the tendons and ligaments.
The end result is a bunch of kinetic energy that, rather than being dissipated out of the body (as is supposed to happen), rebounds into the joints, causing SERIOUS damage over the long term.
I don't recommend this type of training for young students, and definitely not for older students, whose joints, ligaments, and tendons are not as strong.

 

[exile]

The end result is a bunch of kinetic energy that, rather than being dissipated out of the body (as is supposed to happen), rebounds into the joints, causing SERIOUS damage over the long term.

There is no measurable kinetic energy. The weights are used in very slow motion kicks, with no impact shock at the end; the kick is then maintained in extended position, at increasing heights. As I explained in my previous posts. What kinetic energy?

Also, slow repetitions of the technique (1000 times slow, 1 time fast), sometimes against a resisting opponent. And forms have served me well.

Slow reps, definitely, and forms, yes! I wouldn't use weights in anything dynamic like forms, even done slowly. But one variant on the weight exercise that I've been using is to stay in the extended position for 10 seconds or so, then very slowly rechamber (with the bent knee still parallel to the floor at the end of the rechamber), then extend again, very slowly, for the next 10 seconds, and so on as long as possible. I'm trying to keep track of when I'm doing what... It does get fatiguing, and I don't the weight stuff every day, but I figure (or at least hope) I'll see some results after another four months or so, if there are any to be had... I will say this—it's a hell of a tough balance exercise!

 

[Balrog]

As has been mentioned, beware of excessive stress on joints when working with weights and doing kicks with more than minor power.

One of the best drills that I have found is this. Lie down on a straight line to use as a guide. Assuming we are down with the left side, you would then have the left elbow on the line, the left hip on the line, the left heel on the line in a tuck position as close to your hip as you can get it, and your right heel on the line fully extended. You'll pretty much be in the position of a jump side kick at the point of impact.

Now - keeping the correct body alignment, raise the right leg up until the foot and leg are parallel to the floor (12-15 inches). Don't let the toes point up; push your right hip forward if that happens. Hold for 15 seconds, then slowlyyyyy bring the leg up into the rechamber position, hold for 5 seconds and slowlyyyy extend it again. You can also work roundhouse kicks and hook kicks the same way. Try raising the foot an extra inch or so up after the second rep. Switch sides when the first side is exhausted.

When you are comfortable with this exercise, add a pound or two ankle weight. It is not recommended to do this in class, as the screaming in agony tends to set a bad example for your students. :waah:

But after a month or two of doing this, your kicks will be noticably stronger and faster.

 

[exile]

As has been mentioned, beware of excessive stress on joints when working with weights and doing kicks with more than minor power.

One of the best drills that I have found is this. Lie down on a straight line to use as a guide. Assuming we are down with the left side, you would then have the left elbow on the line, the left hip on the line, the left heel on the line in a tuck position as close to your hip as you can get it, and your right heel on the line fully extended. You'll pretty much be in the position of a jump side kick at the point of impact.

Now - keeping the correct body alignment, raise the right leg up until the foot and leg are parallel to the floor (12-15 inches). Don't let the toes point up; push your right hip forward if that happens. Hold for 15 seconds, then slowlyyyyy bring the leg up into the rechamber position, hold for 5 seconds and slowlyyyy extend it again. You can also work roundhouse kicks and hook kicks the same way. Try raising the foot an extra inch or so up after the second rep. Switch sides when the first side is exhausted.

When you are comfortable with this exercise, add a pound or two ankle weight. It is not recommended to do this in class, as the screaming in agony tends to set a bad example for your students. :waah:

But after a month or two of doing this, your kicks will be noticably stronger and faster.

Cool... thanks very much, B.! Another component of the toolkit...