Kenpo VS Krav Maga?

[Wingman]

I've always been very interested in Krav Maga ever since I first took notice of it a year or two ago, but with my schedule at the moment not allowing me to go and actually jump into a school in my area I've been basically just watching videos and reading what little information I can find to get a feel of the art.

I've been training in Kenpo for nearly a decade now, and for the later half of my training my focus has shifted to self defense as my top priority. This quest for self defense was part of what has inspired my curiosity in Krav Maga

What I've come to notice is what seems to be striking similarities (pun intended?) between Kenpo and Krav Maga as far as principles of execution go. Has anyone else noticed these similarities?

Granted many techniques within Kenpo flow into a more artful finish than the rugged ferocity of Krav Maga, but take some techniques such as: Flashing Mace, The Ram and The Eagle, Blinding Sacrifice, Fatal Deviation, Entwined Maces, to name a few, and cut them down to their first few basic movements, leaving the sometimes fancy endings out. I believe there to be a strong similarity in principles when you look at it this way.

Other techniques seem to translate much more directly in idea. For example, Mace of Agression, Glancing Salute, Raking Mace, Snapping Twig, Gift of Destruction, Broken Gift, Conquering shield, Triggered Salute, Shielding Hammer, Thrusting Wedge, Thrusting Prongs, Tripping Arrow, Repeated Devastation, Calming/Securing the Storm.... the list just continues to grow the more I think about it.

Just thought I'd throw this minor 'revelation' out there if thats what I was going to call it?

Anyone else see where Im coming from?

 

[Topeng]

"Although Krav Maga shares many techniques with other martial arts, such as wing chun, eskrima, aikido, boxing, judo, jujutsu, karate, kobudo, muay thai, savate, or wrestling, the training is often quite different. It stresses fighting under worst-case conditions or from disadvantaged positions (for example, against several opponents, when protecting someone else, with one arm unusable, when dizzy, against armed opponents). Unlike Karate there are no predefined sequences of moves or choreographed styles; instead Krav Maga emphasizes rapid learning and the retzef ("continuous combat motion"), with the sole imperative being effectiveness, for either attack or defensive situations." - Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_maga

When Imi Lichtenfeld developed the system, it was to protect the Jewish people from Nazi militias. I believe he took techniques from multiple systems that he thought were the most practical and put them together to develop Krav Maga.

 

[ChadWarner]

"Although Krav Maga shares many techniques with other martial arts, such as wing chun, eskrima, aikido, boxing, judo, jujutsu, karate, kobudo, muay thai, savate, or wrestling, the training is often quite different. It stresses fighting under worst-case conditions or from disadvantaged positions (for example, against several opponents, when protecting someone else, with one arm unusable, when dizzy, against armed opponents). Unlike Karate there are no predefined sequences of moves or choreographed styles; instead Krav Maga emphasizes rapid learning and the retzef ("continuous combat motion"), with the sole imperative being effectiveness, for either attack or defensive situations." - Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_maga

When Imi Lichtenfeld developed the system, it was to protect the Jewish people from Nazi militias. I believe he took techniques from multiple systems that he thought were the most practical and put them together to develop Krav Maga.

American Kenpo is not Karate. It is a label that stuck with the art and was never shaken loose. That does not mean Karate in it's various forms such as Koei Kan Karate do and other full contanct versions are not deadly. All art forms at higher level seek one thing- removal of a threat. In the end many forms of self defense look the same.

 

[Doc]

American Kenpo is not Karate. It is a label that stuck with the art and was never shaken loose. That does not mean Karate in it's various forms such as Koei Kan Karate do and other full contanct versions are not deadly. All art forms at higher level seek one thing- removal of a threat. In the end many forms of self defense look the same.

It's amazing how many people haven't figured that out. "kenpo-karate," and "American kenpo" are not the same, while everything else for most is labeled some form of "karate" or "MMA" now to sale it.

 

[Blindside]

It's amazing how many people haven't figured that out. "kenpo-karate," and "American kenpo" are not the same, while everything else for most is labeled some form of "karate" or "MMA" now to sale it.

IKKA
WKKA
LTKKA
AKKS
IKKO
etc.

If first generation seniors can't figure out how to appropriately label their own organization names, why are we surprised that their students and the general public are confused?

Lamont

 

[Doc]

IKKA
WKKA
LTKKA
AKKS
IKKO
etc.

If first generation seniors can't figure out how to appropriately label their own organization names, why are we surprised that their students and the general public are confused?

Lamont

We of the MSU, SL-4 branch don't know what you mean.

 

[Tames D]

IKKA
WKKA
LTKKA
AKKS
IKKO
etc.

If first generation seniors can't figure out how to appropriately label their own organization names, why are we surprised that their students and the general public are confused?

Lamont

I know what you mean.

 

[ChadWarner]

It's amazing how many people haven't figured that out. "kenpo-karate," and "American kenpo" are not the same, while everything else for most is labeled some form of "karate" or "MMA" now to sale it.

Well lets see, we have been on these boards since what, 98 ,when the kenponet started up? How are you still amazed? No where on my Blackbelt Degrees does it say karate. I have a very strong feeling it ain't just us!

 

[Topeng]

I wasn't trying to label kenpo as karate so my apologies to those who may have thought that. I believe the article was giving examples of different arts that Krava Maga shares techniques with. It would be too lengthy an example list to name all styles so I think they just included the most common terms.
I agree that each art has its share of deadly techniques. It seems the popularity of MMA tend to attract people to "sport" versions of an art instead of the combat aspect for which they were developed. The rules of not going for eyes, throat, small joint manipulation, has made the general public think of martial arts differently.
Either people tend to think that MMA is the definition of combat, or that martial arts in general are watered down and incomplete due to MMA'ers learning several arts to be competitive (i.e. Muay Thai/BJJ). I'm not sure which view is worse (Maybe another thread topic).
In this light, I suspect Krav Maga's popularity has increased due to advertising brutality and being developed in a place with such a history of violence. Now I know almost if not every art was developed as a reaction to violence but: Using Japan as an example, the time when most of these combat arts were developed and had to be used is considered ancient history and unfortunately forgotten by the average person. Its the current day unrest towards Israelis which makes Krav Maga so appealing.

 

[Doc]

Well lets see, we have been on these boards since what, 98 ,when the kenponet started up? How are you still amazed? No where on my Blackbelt Degrees does it say karate. I have a very strong feeling it ain't just us!

Well, there's two of us Chad.

 

[Doc]

I wasn't trying to label kenpo as karate so my apologies to those who may have thought that.

Don't apologize. Not necessary. Just pointing out how important words and terms can be for understanding in a print media that all.

I believe the article was giving examples of different arts that Krava Maga shares techniques with. It would be too lengthy an example list to name all styles so I think they just included the most common terms.
I agree that each art has its share of deadly techniques. It seems the popularity of MMA tend to attract people to "sport" versions of an art instead of the combat aspect for which they were developed.

A good and very important observation. Most arts in the era of commercialism have multiple aspects, each focused on a particular sales demographic. Sport and self-defense are the two major categories. However both can and do give distorted views of the nature of many of the art forms. Both have a level of realistic application, but both can be wholly unrealistic as well. The good thing about the "sport" component is, the level of realism it brings is at least quantifiable, while many self defense interpretations train for the what they say they could have done, and eliminate aspects of reality unknown or fall outside the available information. We call this hypothetical training. "If you do that, I could have poked you in the eye." At least in sport you have to actually do, whatever it is you do.

The rules of not going for eyes, throat, small joint manipulation, has made the general public think of martial arts differently. Either people tend to think that MMA is the definition of combat, or that martial arts in general are watered down and incomplete due to MMA'ers learning several arts to be competitive (i.e. Muay Thai/BJJ). I'm not sure which view is worse (Maybe another thread topic).

Because of the extreme physical nature of what they do, I think most people look at it and think what they see is actual fighting, and on one level it is of course. When a linebacker blitzes and hits the QB, the violence is real, even though it is within a framework of rules and restrictions. Even here they equate a tough football player with the ability to fight, which isn't necessarily so. In shape, tough, and physical, yes. But only a fighter within the framework of what and how they train. I've seem great athletes in games have "fights," only to discover as great players and athletes they are, they can't even throw a decent punch at each other.

In this light, I suspect Krav Maga's popularity has increased due to advertising brutality and being developed in a place with such a history of violence. Now I know almost if not every art was developed as a reaction to violence but: Using Japan as an example, the time when most of these combat arts were developed and had to be used is considered ancient history and unfortunately forgotten by the average person. Its the current day unrest towards Israelis which makes Krav Maga so appealing.

Now here we disagree. Its appeal comes from it ease of instruction from the perspective, its a "do this" kind of instruction. No training to develop as in more traditional arts requiring more discipline. Just "put your arm up and block, grab this, and hit like this" training. The results by comparison is easier not withstanding the "tough mindset" aspect.

Self defense courses have always been sold this way. "Down and dirty," "the best of all the other arts," "Just the stuff you need to protect yourself," "bare bones and effective," "learned quick," "The ultimate in self defense," etc. All of them are an out growth of short self defense classes originally designed for quick civilian training in general, and women in particular, self defense.

forming an entire art around this concept, and awarding rank for participation is a businessman's dream. Unfortunately, these type of arts because of their lack of consistency in training and interpretation, don't transfer well from generation-to-generation. The loose interpretive nature of the concept belies any consistent transfer of methodology because the emphasis is on "results." This is inherent because of the awarding rank, coupled with the assume presumption that if you have "rank," you therefore should be able to teach. A failed concept that creates under most circumstances a less competent product every student/instructor generation.

To this extent, all of the traditional arts have been corrupted on some level for fiscal survival, focusing on one aspect or the other, awarding belts to aid retention and revenue, and watching in many cases the "so-called masters" get younger and younger with ranking climbing higher and higher.

 

[DavidCC]

forming an entire art around this concept, and awarding rank for participation is a businessman's dream. Unfortunately, these type of arts because of their lack of consistency in training and interpretation, don't transfer well from generation-to-generation. The loose interpretive nature of the concept belies any consistent transfer of methodology because the emphasis is on "results." This is inherent because of the awarding rank, coupled with the assume presumption that if you have "rank," you therefore should be able to teach. A failed concept that creates under most circumstances a less competent product every student/instructor generation.

"The loose interpretive nature of the concept belies any consistent transfer of methodology"

If I can ever contribute one thing to the people I train with and under, it will be to work to make this be less true for our system. It drives me crazy.

 

[Doc]

"The loose interpretive nature of the concept belies any consistent transfer of methodology"

If I can ever contribute one thing to the people I train with and under, it will be to work to make this be less true for our system. It drives me crazy.

The reason everything must be codified and well defined amongst those who teach, from a standardized curriculum, before personal interpretations come into play.

 

[DavidCC]

We have all of our techniques and forms written in a standard format - the HOW (or the WHAT to do) is now standardized for us to that extent.

I'm finding that as I explore the WHY sometimes the answers I find don't support the HOW :/ usually this turns out to be a lack in my understanding of HOW haha

 

[Doc]

We have all of our techniques and forms written in a standard format - the HOW (or the WHAT to do) is now standardized for us to that extent.

I'm finding that as I explore the WHY sometimes the answers I find don't support the HOW :/ usually this turns out to be a lack in my understanding of HOW haha

I have never seen any system with a truly codified curriculum of "how" to execute. The reason is a simple one. It would take several lifetimes to write it down and IF you did, it would be so physically and intellectually demanding to read, it would be virtually useless to the novice student trying to learn, because you would need the intellectual knowledge of what you are reading in order to attempt to physically put it into action. That's where teachers come into play.

It's like sports in a sense. The skills are learned and taught from a series of multi-level coaches. The higher you go, the more skilled and knowledgeable the coach to get you to perform at that level. The difference in sports is you move to the next level based on potential, and many fail. Even at the highest level, there are only a few coaches that are considered to be the best at what they do. The rest are just barely adequate. Additionally, sports is relatively easy to learn and understand in comparison to a true martial science.

There are forms and sets that are supposed to teach you "how," and give you basic skills. But you'll never find a "how" in a book. Standardized curriculum just keeps everyone on the same page to various degrees, but knowledge of the how will always be in the hands of a very, very few "master coaches."

We all would like to think that our coach is one of the better ones, and he actually gave or gives us high level information. But unlike sports, we don't have to go out and test the information everyday, so we can make the assumption what we do is valid and that our coaches are truly masters of what they do. In most cases, we're wrong. Most of use are just doing "Pop Warner" and love it, and in a country of 300 million people, there are less than 400 in the NFL. But as long as we don't have to use it, and we enjoy it, what does it matter?

Which reminds me Dave, how is the sweetie pie doing? I need her to carry on my lineage. My girls are martial arts useless, and fiscally draining.

 

[DavidCC]

Which reminds me Dave, how is the sweetie pie doing? I need her to carry on my lineage. My girls are martial arts useless, and fiscally draining.

She is awesome as usual We went to a tapas bar last night for my birthday, and she ate more than her share of marinated anchovy filets, rabbit skewers, beef carpaccio, steamed mussels, pickled garlic, marinated olives, lamb skewers, pancetta-wrapped melon...

She did a lot better sparring last weekend than I did :/ She beats up the boys 3 and 4 years older then herself (7 yrs old), and fends off 4 classmates at a time trying to wrassle her to the floor. While sporting a french pedicure courtesy of her big sister.

 

[DavidCC]

I have never seen any system with a truly codified curriculum of "how" to execute. The reason is a simple one. It would take several lifetimes to write it down and IF you did, it would be so physically and intellectually demanding to read, it would be virtually useless to the novice student trying to learn, because you would need the intellectual knowledge of what you are reading in order to attempt to physically put it into action. That's where teachers come into play.

It's like sports in a sense. The skills are learned and taught from a series of multi-level coaches. The higher you go, the more skilled and knowledgeable the coach to get you to perform at that level. The difference in sports is you move to the next level based on potential, and many fail. Even at the highest level, there are only a few coaches that are considered to be the best at what they do. The rest are just barely adequate. Additionally, sports is relatively easy to learn and understand in comparison to a true martial science.

There are forms and sets that are supposed to teach you "how," and give you basic skills. But you'll never find a "how" in a book. Standardized curriculum just keeps everyone on the same page to various degrees, but knowledge of the how will always be in the hands of a very, very few "master coaches."

We all would like to think that our coach is one of the better ones, and he actually gave or gives us high level information. But unlike sports, we don't have to go out and test the information everyday, so we can make the assumption what we do is valid and that our coaches are truly masters of what they do. In most cases, we're wrong. Most of use are just doing "Pop Warner" and love it, and in a country of 300 million people, there are less than 400 in the NFL. But as long as we don't have to use it, and we enjoy it, what does it matter?

Well, I meant that we have writen "what to do" of course I'll try to be more precise...

but it raises the question, what did you mean when you wrote
"everything must be codified and well defined amongst those who teach"? Not necessarily written to be codified?

At least I have identified the biggest barrier to reaching my goal... I haven't defined it properly.


"But as long as we don't have to use it, and we enjoy it, what does it matter?"

I think it's like Schroedinger's cat... it doesn't matter, until it does, then it matters a lot.

 

[Doc]

She is awesome as usual We went to a tapas bar last night for my birthday, and she ate more than her share of marinated anchovy filets, rabbit skewers, beef carpaccio, steamed mussels, pickled garlic, marinated olives, lamb skewers, pancetta-wrapped melon...

She did a lot better sparring last weekend than I did :/ She beats up the boys 3 and 4 years older then herself (7 yrs old), and fends off 4 classmates at a time trying to wrassle her to the floor. While sporting a french pedicure courtesy of her big sister.

You, my friend, are in more trouble than I am.

 

[Doc]

Well, I meant that we have writen "what to do" of course I'll try to be more precise...

but it raises the question, what did you mean when you wrote
"everything must be codified and well defined amongst those who teach"? Not necessarily written to be codified?

There are varying degrees of codification. To be more successful in a true system, the level of codification will reflect and dictate the level of the instructors who are a part of the system themselves.

In Ed Parker's commercial system (kenpo-Karate) as an example, the entire system consists of conceptual ideas that are left to interpretation by the student and teacher alike. Therefore higher levels of information mandate an instructor of an extraordinary level of skill and knowledge to bring students to higher levels. But because the instructors are a product of the system itself, it becomes self-limiting.

You will find the best Kenpo-Karate teachers had significant previous experience with other arts (outside of large organizational groups) prior to coming to the concept. Additionally, there are those that leave the concept to seek other ideas and skills to bolster the concepts they have learned in Kenpo-Karate.

The higher the degree and understanding of the written material, and the more meticulous the presentation, the easier it is to supplement instruction by competent products of the same system. But it must, in fact, be a system that demands specifics in understanding and execution long before anyone is allowed to freeform or explore. Basic skills are learned, not explored, tailored, or rearranged. That is something only the knowledgeable can do after many years within the framework of a defined system.

At least I have identified the biggest barrier to reaching my goal... I haven't defined it properly. "But as long as we don't have to use it, and we enjoy it, what does it matter?" I think it's like Schroedinger's cat... it doesn't matter, until it does, then it matters a lot.

You got it sir. A true conundrum when looking up from below.

 

[DavidCC]

...A true conundrum when looking up from below.

just trying to keep climbing, keep my feet on the stairs... it's dark but thanks for letting me borrow your flashlight