Kenpo Principles applied in grappling situations

[Brother John]

I'm aware that many American Kenpoists are not satisfied with the grappling/anti-grappling work in most Kenpo curriculi. Speaking personally I do like the direction being taken in the association I belong to in regards to 'anti-grappling'. It's a very good start, and no doubt much more is on the way.
Here's my question: For those of you that try to incorporate some grappling into your Kenpo curriculum, what Kenpo principles do you find the most vital.... OR... how do the more central Kenpo principals 'translate' when doing groundwork?
Just wondering what your thoughts are....
your brother
John

 

[jfarnsworth]

I'm probably going to open the biggest can of worms here but I'll state my personal opinion. I'm not quite sure if you can put an exact principle down in stone when working on the ground fighting situations. Most often you do what your body is capable of doing with the amount of knowledge you have for the situation. What I mean is "if" you end up on your back; have you practiced leg sweep to their knees, trap-bridge-& roll technqiues, do you know about acceptable hand positioning on your opponent, escapes from the bottom, leg passes, other various scissor sweeps??? These are just things that come to mind at the moment. The only way to gain serious frame work for the ground is to work out with a JJ school or something of that nature. Being in the top position as well doesn't necessarily mean pound the snot out of someone either. There's a lot to getting someone down on the bottom and being able to keep them there. Anyway any constructive criticism is accepted as always.

 

[Elfan]

Well looking through II4... posture, balance, relaxation, speed, accuracy, angles... all seem to work prety well.

Relaxation is the biggest thing I would say that seems to disapear in translation. Someone who is so relaxed he looks like a "drunken boxer" turns into Mr. Tense with no breathing when he gets on the ground.

Posture is more subtle, think of it more genearlly as haveing the skeletal structure NOT the muscular stucuture supporting your body. Don't be wasting all your strenth trying to hold yourself up the varries positions, lay on the guy, its much less comphy from his point of review, trust me.

Balance, you need to be able to form a stable base or the guy is going to send you flying. Conversly if your on the bottom you need to see where his weekest base of suport is and apply your force in that direction.

Speed... well ya you snooze you loose here.

Is that what you were looking for?

 

[Handsword]

I also believe that Kenpo needs to evolve further in this area.

In regards to anti-grappling I'd have to refer to the Chinese Fan Principle (ie. move the target first) and bracing angles.

Kenpo syllabus techniques do not include anything like sprawling because a preference is made for an upright spine. However, a grappler who targets the control of the hips (for a double-leg take down/slam etc) can also use a single leg takedown as a back-up plan. This is why I believe a technique like Charging Ram "may not always be effective" because the angle change still leaves the attacker close to the lead leg.

In regards to actual ground fighting, principles such as anchoring the elbow (so that your arm doesn't get ripped off) and rotational torque (mainly using the hips to change position) are important considerations.

At some stage in my BJJ training (I primarily train in Kenpo), I started to write down the common principles. I don't have the list nearby, but I remember a few of them to be:

* establish position first, submission after
* keep all 4 limbs in play
* stay relaxed with controlled breathing
* gang up on the opponent's limbs
* create a ball shape when on the bottom

Hope this helps.

- Handsword

 

[Elfan]

Originally posted by Handsword
* establish position first, submission after

Other people have a name for this that I can't recall but I refer to it as the cycle of consideations..

Attitude -> Environment -> Dimensional Stages of Action ("Range") -> Position -> Manuver -> Target -> Weapon -> Angle -> Cover

I find this applies to goundfighting and stand up stuf equally.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Well I was at a JJ black belt testing earlier today. One of the questions was about something their class called P.I.T.S.

P osition
I
T echnique
S ubmission
Unfortunately I can't remember the other 1 at the moment but I will find out. This is what their techniques are based upon. I'll post back later when I find out the other one.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I am far from an expert in GF or Kenpo

Quite honestly I think you can translate a FEW of the principles and theories from kenpo to groundfighting. Unfortunately they are two very distinct creatures. This means that most of the GF strategy and physical action would be completely different from that of a Standing fight.

Take for instance your stance or position. If you are standing, and out of range from your opponent, you don't necessarily have to worry about how to manuever. You are free to move around as you wish until that particular threshold is violated. However, if you find yourself on the ground, even if your opponent is out of range, something as simple as standing back up should be approached with a fair amount of strategy (alot of guys get popped because they don't know how to stand back up and their opponent closes the gap quickly.) What is it that all you Brits out there say,"Mind the Gap." Sure they're talking about subway platforms but the saying translates well to this areal

There are a few likes and alot of differences, but it's good to know that there are others who are giving this subject some thought.

By the way, I've got nothing against Brits.... except for Les.
Just kidding Les, hope to see you at the CAMP in a couple of months

 

[Dave Simmons]

Just my two cents...but old style Kenpo Karate had ground fighting and defense as a part of the system. It seems like over the years American Kenpo folks are trying to regain what they lost. Some of us older guys remember our training in the 60's.


Dave Simmons
Twin Dragon Kenpo Karate

http://www.mnkenpo.com

 

[Goldendragon7]

Ground defense and Purple Matt work, hardly is enough to even start with, in terms of grappling. There is much more to it then just learning how to fall do a couple of kicks....

:asian:

 

[Dave Simmons]

Back then...break falls and dealing with leg grabs (shoots) were common in beginner classes. It was more like ju jitsu basics and plenty joint locks etc. Believe me it was a defferent blend.

Dave Simmons

http://www.mnkenpo.com

 

[jfarnsworth]

Did you guys work on Takedowns, Throws, Sweeps, Mount position, Guard position, Locks in the guard, locks in the mount, sweeps from the guard, takedowns from on the knees, Chokes from the guard/mount positions, standing Locks, Countering throws, hand positioning from the guard/mount position? I'm just kind of curious at how far indepth it went because I don't think that I've touched even a tip of this material.

 

[Dave Simmons]

The emphasis was not to stay on the ground and grapple but get away or maim to free yourself up to stand and defend. In short, strike and stay on guard against the guys friends.

We oriented ourselves to the ground but firmly believed the ground was the target to throw our opponents bodies to...


Dave Simmons
Twin Dragon Kenpo Karate

 

[Hollywood1340]

Hollywoods Definitions:
Groundwork (aka matwork): You on your feet, your opponent on the ground.

 

[Dave Simmons]

I like your definition Hollywood! Fits my attitude 100%

Dave Simmons

http://www.mnkenpo.com

 

[jfarnsworth]

Thanks for the explanation. I was somewhat thinking that was your idea Mr.Simmons but I wanted to know for sure.
Happy kenpoing.

 

[GouRonin]

I have pulled off a variation of "Parting Wings" while using the guard and inserting a right vertical elbow after the left hand throat chop. The targets varied somewhat as well. I simply torqued my upper body while maintaining my guard position for the stance shift changes that would have occured.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Cool. Alter, re-arrange, and adjust the kenpo still flows within you my friend.

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
the kenpo still flows within you my friend.

Jason, why must you insult me so?

I suppose it's like being an alcoholic. It's only a measure of time since you last drank.
Ha ha ha!

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

The emphasis was not to stay on the ground and grapple but get away or maim to free yourself up to stand and defend. In short, strike and stay on guard against the guys friends.

This is an excellent definition of groundfighting. To stay on the ground with an opponent would simply be wrestling or "rolling" and wouldn't be very beneficial in a hostile environment

I've had the opportunity to work on this particular range of fighting. The workouts have been extremely informative. Some of the things we've been doing are the guard passes, mount defenses and offenses, manueverability. All these things culminate in our final objective, which is to use ballistic striking to end the situation.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by GouRonin
...I suppose it's like being an alcoholic. It's only a measure of time since you last drank.
Ha ha ha!

It has been a while. I keep looking at that bottle of Grey Goose I have wanting a glass or 2 but somehow I never get to it
.