Kempo/Kenpo techniques

[Flying Crane]

No sure what you are talking about here. Linear move does not need torso rotation, but circular move does. In that form, it's just a linear punch.

So in the context of the TomTui or long fist, what purpose does holding the second hand extended and to the back, like it is done in that clip? If there is no rotation, then why is the arm in that position?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So in the context of the TomTui or long fist, what purpose does holding the second hand extended and to the back, like it is done in that clip? If there is no rotation, then why is the arm in that position?

Most people's punch out their right hands, there will be an angle between their right arm and their chest. That will not be their maximum extension.

This is called "short fist" method.

If he can make his right arm and his chest to be a straight line, he will have the maximum reach. The back left straight arm just to pull his left shoulder back so his body can make that perfect straight line.

This is called "long fist" method.

This training can also be seen in the sword training.

 

[CB Jones]

You may use the term "practice" more general than I do. To me, practice include develop, test, polish, and enhance.

In my school, we start with partner drills (We don't start with solo form or solo drill). After student are familiar with the partner drills, The partner drill without partner then become the solo drill.

In the following clip, his opponent blocks his kick, blocks his punch, ... He does 1 move, his opponent respond with 1 move.

Maybe I'm missing something, but to me this does not look more realistic than the original videos posted.

 

[Flying Crane]

Most people's punch out their right hands, there will be an angle between their right arm and their chest. That will not be their maximum extension.

This is called "short fist" method.

If he can make his right arm and his chest to be a straight line, he will have the maximum reach. The back left straight arm just to pull his left shoulder back so his body can make that perfect straight line.

This is called "long fist" method.

This training can also be seen in the sword training.

So it is strictly for reach?

 

[Star Dragon]

Here is another example. When you sweep your opponent's leading leg, he can

1. escape your sweep - bend his leg and let your sweeping leg to go under it.
2. force against force - turn his shin bone into your sweep.

Your respond to your opponent's respond will be different between 1 and 2. In other words, you don't know which technique that you will flow into. It will depend on your opponent's respond.

If I make 1 move and you freeze, how do I know which move that I should flow into?

At least in EPAK, different reactions of the adversary are being addressed in the 'what if' phase of training.

 

[Star Dragon]

In fairness, FMA is growing more popular in some places and then we have HEMA being resurrected in some areas.Im not entirely sure how well a fencer would yield a stick or a club though, but thats been a pretty big English institution and in some European countries. Kendos pretty popular, they are the only couple of official styles i know which do weapons, other than training organizations which have weapons courses, kind of like shiv works and all those shooting places in the U.S. Or job specific training like police, security, corrections soldiers for public order duties etc.

I generally would like to learn to use weapons as part of martial training and not just focus on disarms, it gives you a appreciation for them, and a ability to use them if the person drops them or someone else gets involved etc. If you appreciate how to use it, you could develop a plan to deal with someone suing it against you better.


Kind of off topic or not really related to the point, but i think i could have beaten some of the terrible knife defence i was witness to by mimicking a "stance" i saw in a book for how to hold it.

Weapon training is indeed part of Kenpo's curriculum, at least in EPAK and at an advanced stage. In fact, GM Parker was pretty badass with the knife. Kenpo's principles and even very moves can easily be adapted to knife and to club/stick fighting and actually make for an interesting alternative to FMA and other methods.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So it is strictly for reach?

The chest and arms make a straight line is also good for stretching..

 

[Flying Crane]

The chest and arms make a straight line is also good for stretching..

I understand that, we do it in Tibetan crane as well. We also recognize the reach that the turned torso provides and the reduced target from the turned profile. But it is the act of turning the torso, the rotation, that provides power in the punch. Without the rotation, it seems like just an arm-driven punch, no power other than the strength of the arm.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I understand that, we do it in Tibetan crane as well. We also recognize the reach that the turned torso provides and the reduced target from the turned profile. But it is the act of turning the torso, the rotation, that provides power in the punch. Without the rotation, it seems like just an arm-driven punch, no power other than the strength of the arm.

Here is the long fist punch training that arm and chest make a perfect line.

The circular striking is not the long fist strong point. This is why some long fist guys also cross train the Tong Bei,

or Pi Gua.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sorry! This is suppose to be a Kempo thread. Hope we can go back to the Kempo discussion.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I found this and thought i would just link it in as its based on Kenpo.

 

[JR 137]

I’ve never trained EPAK, so I don’t know their philosophy on why they do stuff like the original intent of the thread was getting at. My take on it...

In Seido, we do a bunch of what others would call one-steps. 10 basic/beginner ones (20 if you count right punch coming at you and left punch), 10 intermediate. Advanced ones are different enough to not call one-step.

These things don’t pretend to tell you that’s how an actual fight is going to play out. They teach timing a single punch, where and how to block, where to strike and with what, etc. They’re all PRINCIPLES. They teach movement that gets you out of doing the same repeated block-punch-kick routine. No one’s going to step in at you in a karate front leaning stance with a straight right punch while they chamber the left hand under their armpit, and no one’s going to respond with “intermediate self defense number 5.” But by practicing that, you have those tools available to you to modify depending on the situation. It’s like doing kata with a partner in a sense.

Is this the be all, end all of Seido? Not even close. You’ve got to learn to walk before you become a world class sprinter. So you go slow at first with no resistance and no real speed. Then you pick up the pace. Then you resist. Then you counter. Then your partner counters your counter. American football teams practice their plays without a defense in front of them. Why? To learn the play. Then they add a defense that lets them do their thing. Then they pick up the pace and resistance until they’re doing it in practically full game intensity. And they’ll continually cycle through them. I’ve seen a few NY Giants preseason practices as they used to have camp 10 minutes from my house.

 

[Flying Crane]

Here is the long fist punch training that arm and chest make a perfect line.

The circular striking is not the long fist strong point. This is why some long fist guys also cross train the Tong Bei,

or Pi Gua.

I’m not going to comment on the tong bei nor the piqua because I have no experience with them.

That long fist punch is very similar to how we punch in Tibetan crane. Not the same, but very similar. I would argue that it IS a circular punch. The path of the punch is straight, but the power is generated in a circular method, through torso rotation.

This is different from what I see in tam tui, however. Many of the punches in that form lack the torso rotation. They simply punch straight out, with the other arm extended behind. I actually learned two versions of that form a long time ago. I never understood that bit, and never asked my Sifu. My bad.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is different from what I see in tam tui, however. Many of the punches in that form lack the torso rotation. They simply punch straight out, with the other arm extended behind. I actually learned two versions of that form a long time ago. I never understood that bit, and never asked my Sifu. My bad.

The long fist Tan Tui training is the 1st grade training material. When you learn "This is a book", you won't get into fancy grammar such as "If I had had ... , I would have had ...".

IMO, long fist is good to foundation development. After that, one needs to cross train other MA styles for power generation, speed generation, and throwing skill. For example, your white crane system has better power generation method than the long fist has.

 

[Star Dragon]

In the long fist system, kick low and punch high can be learned during the 1st month of training. It's in the 1st part (total 10 parts) of the Tantui form (the 1st form to learn).

That punch is strangely reminiscent of Wado-ryu's tobikomi tsuki.

 

[Star Dragon]

The chest and arms make a straight line is also good for stretching..

I like going into this posture with a kettlebell.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A three or four punch combination is likey to actually occur.

The Kempo combination is not likely to occur. Because nobody is ever going to let you do that.

That's a different issue. I agree some of the Kempo combinations are a lot less likely. I don't think they're as impossible as they seem when you watch the Technique, because they're not intended to be done in that sequence to someone who's not moving (and I'm not sure why they don't actually have the "attacker" moving). The main point of them, though is not the specific combination, but the flow between any two techniques. How realistic they are is a different question.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm not sure why they don't actually have the "attacker" moving.

They can always use the 2 men form approach instead.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

They can always use the 2 men form approach instead.

Which kenpo does.

 

[Headhunter]

Which kenpo does.

2 man set, really like that set, whether or not it's realistic that's another debate but at my stage of life I'm not that bothered about all that anymore. It's a nice set to work through. It's a ***** to work without a partner though