Katana

[Fiendlover]

ok so my katana sucks. the inside of my sheath always gets wax on my blade and the butt of my handle keeps falling off so i need a new one.

my question is where i can i buy one that includes the three set and where i can a get a really good one thats not going to cost me an arm and a leg. um i would prefer actual places and not websites because i want to see it b4 i purchase it. thanks

 

[Blindside]

o
my question is where i can i buy one that includes the three set and where i can a get a really good one thats not going to cost me an arm and a leg.

Generally, you can't, though swinging around a cheap one may literally cost you an arm or leg.

Can you define a price range?

Lamont

 

[Sukerkin]

This is not going to be advice you want to hear, Fiend as you are not going to get anywhere playing around with wallhangers and the 'three-set' you're speaking of is classic wallhanger {expletive deleted}. Please, I implore you, don't play around with decorator quality SLO's - you may be lucky but the odds are there for you to hurt either yourself or someone else when it comes apart on you.

A safe-ish quality, basic, non-sharp, non-steel, iaito is going to cost in the region of £150-£200 (double the numbers for Dollar ball-park). A good one a lot more.

My iaito is balanced to replicate an identical shinken and is sized correctly for me. I got it cheap at £350 (then shipping on top of that) from Tozando because they had a blade ready made that was the right size from a cancelled order. A shinken of equivalent quality is looking to cost me more than £1000 as I cast about looking for one before the law changes over here.

As you specifically request 'local only' there's not a lot I can do to advise you other than that which I've already mentioned. I can't even say "Go to a martial arts store" as they're as guilty as anyone else of selling sword-shaped ornaments.

Your best bet is to look for an iaido school in your region, get accepted (if they're koryu joining is not automatic) and get advice from there as to where to find a sword.

One note, before you think that I'm being unfair and snobby - nearly all of us in our school started out waving wallhangers around in our living room before seeking training, so there's nothing to be embarassed about. Just don't continue using such things now you know what a katana (whether live-blade or iaito) should be like (and costs).

 

[exile]

This is not going to be advice you want to hear, Fiend as you are not going to get anywhere playing around with wallhangers and the 'three-set' you're speaking of is classic wallhanger {expletive deleted}. Please, I implore you, don't play around with decorator quality SLO's - you may be lucky but the odds are there for you to hurt either yourself or someone else when it comes apart on you.

A safe-ish quality, basic, non-sharp, non-steel, iaito is going to cost in the region of £150-£200 (double the numbers for Dollar ball-park). A good one a lot more.

My iaito is balanced to replicate an identical shinken and is sized correctly for me. I got it cheap at £350 (then shipping on top of that) from Tozando because they had a blade ready made that was the right size from a cancelled order. A shinken of equivalent quality is looking to cost me more than £1000 as I cast about looking for one before the law changes over here.

As you specifically request 'local only' there's not a lot I can do to advise you other than that which I've already mentioned. I can't even say "Go to a martial arts store" as they're as guilty as anyone else of selling sword-shaped ornaments.

Your best bet is to look for an iaido school in your region, get accepted (if they're koryu joining is not automatic) and get advice from there as to where to find a sword.

One note, before you think that I'm being unfair and snobby - nearly all of us in our school started out waving wallhangers around in our living room before seeking training, so there's nothing to be embarassed about. Just don't continue using such things now you know what a katana (whether live-blade or iaito) should be like (and costs).

I'm just a guest on this forum, but I heartily second Sukerkin's point. Be guided by his advice—quality may well cost you and arm and a leg.

A great live blade can easily run you more thousands of dollars than there are letters in your username, and then some. Even a very good practice blade, with the right weighting and handling characteristics, will (and should) be running you near, at or well into the four figure range.

That's just the way it is, alas...

 

[grydth]

I third Sukerkin's advice, which I pray you will listen to.

Katana incidents are not pretty. Parts falling off indicate, "Unsafe! Danger!"

I, also, did well with Tozando. Check out the site. Better to save, wait and get a fine item than bear the consequences.

 

[LuzRD]

http://www.chenessinc.com/
http://www.oniforge.com/
http://www.casiberia.com/cat_japanese.asp (order from Themeditativewarrior@comcast.net for discount)

not knowing your budget, training or your intentions for the katana i imagine its hard to suggest specifics. the links i provided are (to my understanding) where to get practical (SHARP) blades that are some of the lower priced usable swords that ive heard of.

i have not purchased any katana from anywhere, however these are the places that i would go to and not break the bank on what are by reputation pretty good swords.

the 3rd link "casiberia" is the manufacturer (ive just recently heard of. so i would suggest that you get feedback from people who are familiar with them) and the email address is a dealer who has a special right now (advertised on kutaki "a bujinkan website"). if you reference "the papa san offer" they will take 10% off the MSRP from any Japanese Sword and 50% of the profit will go to Ed "Papa San" Martin (a bujinkan shihan) to help his family while he recovers from heart surgery.

 

[jks9199]

ok so my katana sucks. the inside of my sheath always gets wax on my blade and the butt of my handle keeps falling off so i need a new one.

my question is where i can i buy one that includes the three set and where i can a get a really good one thats not going to cost me an arm and a leg. um i would prefer actual places and not websites because i want to see it b4 i purchase it. thanks

I've got a couple of comments. Take 'em or leave 'em as you wish.

First... Barring the very, very rare freak yard sale event, you get what you pay for. Buy a 3-sword set that's "only" a couple of hundred dollars, and you won't get much beyond pot metal and crappy wood. Spend that same couple of hundred bucks on a single, good quality sword, and you'll have a blade you can train and work with for years.

Second... Before you spend money on a live blade, buy a decent boken. Learn to use the boken properly before you inadvertently slip a body part into the path of the blade. Bruises are far more preferable to amputations...

Third... which should probably be first... Don't try to learn on your own. Get proper, personal instruction. And I bet your instructor will be able to tell you where to get a sword WHEN YOU'RE READY.

 

[Fiendlover]

hmmmmmmm i was thinking along the lines of in the $100's and i already have a decent bokken and ive been taught with both. alright i agree to getting one good katana instead of three crappy ones because my other 2 r fine its just the katana (the one i use the most) that sux but i kinda wanted it all matching but i guess ill scratch that idea.
btw ur advice is appreciated whether good or bad.

 

[Decker]

Is there any way to tell a decent iaito from an SLO, apart from price? A shop I get my MA stuff from sells a relatively cheap and very dull-looking (compared to decorative SLOs) sword they called an iaito.

If I'm not wrong, we're supposed to be looking for a full tang (among others that I've forgotten) for a sword to be considered a non-SLO, right? I'm pretty sure that needs disassembly, and I don't know how to disassemble a sword, nor whether the shop would allow it...

Said iaito costs about US$172's equivalent in SGD.

Thanks.

 

[cdunn]

Is there any way to tell a decent iaito from an SLO, apart from price? A shop I get my MA stuff from sells a relatively cheap and very dull-looking (compared to decorative SLOs) sword they called an iaito.

If I'm not wrong, we're supposed to be looking for a full tang (among others that I've forgotten) for a sword to be considered a non-SLO, right? I'm pretty sure that needs disassembly, and I don't know how to disassemble a sword, nor whether the shop would allow it...

Said iaito costs about US$172's equivalent in SGD.

Thanks.

An iaito is just a sword used to practice iaido, though, it is often used to sell dull steel practice blades, differentiating them from live cutting blades.

The store should be able to disclose to you the kind of steel or alloy that the sword is made of. If it's stainless, it's probably a deal breaker - Stainless needs some exotic treatment to handle the stresses of a sword. Most good iaito are going to be made of either 1000 series steel ("spring" steel), or aluminum-zinc alloys, while a shinken, a live sword, is going to be some form of 1000 series steel, or preferably, traditional folded steel.

The tsuka - the handle - should tightly wrapped with a silk or leather ito - the wrapping cord. Between the folds of the cord, you should be able to see either one or two bamboo pins, called mekugi. If you push the mekugi through, you shoule be able to slide the tsuba off of the tang, though it should be a tight fit. The tang should seem like a continuation of the blade in a katana, and any shoulders in the blade to the tang should be rounded. You should not need to remove the endcap - if you have to to get at a bolt, the sword is not traditionally constructed, and probably has a 'rat tail' tang, which can break during normal performance of kata. If the tang looks cracked or welded, it probably is, and you don't want it.

There are, of course, about ten million other factors, but those are the first to look at. But the first place to check is always your instructor.

 

[Blindside]

If I'm not wrong, we're supposed to be looking for a full tang (among others that I've forgotten) for a sword to be considered a non-SLO, right?

Traditionally made katanas do not/did not have a full tang.

 

[cdunn]

Traditionally made katanas do not/did not have a full tang.

Expanding on this for Decker: The tang should be about 2/3rds the length of the tsuka, plus or minus. What it can't be is welded on rod or bar.

 

[Sukerkin]

Decker, as with any purchase that is relatively expensive, knowledge is your friend and the best way of getting that is a friend with knowledge. In the case of potentially dangerous and expensive purchses, such as a sword, then the best friend of all is your sensei and fellow students.

If you are buying an SLO for decorative purposes then any advice here is redundant. If you're buying a sword to 'play' with because you're interested, you are very strongly encouraged to go an enroll at a JSA school. They will have all the information about what is suitable and what is not.

As a visual guide, not very useful really but a starting point:

http://www.tozandoshop.com/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=NT_XT2

This is what a beginner-ish level iaito might look like.

This is what a dangerous piece might look like:

http://www.blades-uk.com/large_pic.php?product_id=2139

Can't really tell much from pictures on the Net and no amount of description will help either.

Trust me, whilst looking for a school I spent a lot of money buying expensive rubbish because I didn't know any better. Once you've been around the real thing for a while you'll learn to judge what is good and what is not - there simply is no substitute for experience and that only comes from a good sensei at a good dojo (or parting with a great deal of cash 0.

 

[Fiendlover]

wow thankx for the advice. it is much appreciated.

 

[chinto]

http://www.chenessinc.com/

i have 2 katana from that company.. both have been very good blades at reasonable prices.

 

[shesulsa]

Admin. Note: Thread moved from General Weapons Discussion to Sword Arts Talk.

G Ketchmark - shesulsa
MT Assist. Administrator

 

[Charles Mahan]

For those recommending that our young friend find an instructor in his area, you're probably going to run into problems.

From his profile.

I train at Red Dragon karate studio and my Shihan is Chris Casamassa.

Presumably his instructor approved of the previous junker he was training with.

 

[cstanley]

Our instructor required that we obtain, preferably, a true katana. We were sent scurrying to antique shops, placing want ads, etc. Many of us found gunto (our instructor has contacts for people that will re-furnish swords and saya), and some of us found quite old, valuable swords. Depending on how old and how valuable, he would or would not allow us to draw it until we had achieved a degree of skill and an understanding of how to care for the sword. Some of us were lucky and found WWII era swords for a couple of hundred bucks. Then, we figured 800 to 1000 for re-furnishing and minimal polishing (and this was in the 80's). Others of us spent several thousand bucks on older swords.
The other option was a high quality modern iai to. Good ones are not cheap, but they are more affordable than old ones in full polish. A couple of guys found modern sword makers and purchased swords from them...again, not cheap.
Obviously, our class was very small...about 5 students. My point is this, if you are serious about learning iaido/kenjutsu it will not be cheap initially. Anything worth doing is worth doing well and properly.

If you are serious about kenjutsu, find a good instructor and a good class. This may not be easy to do, depending on where you are. I know students who drive 100 miles or so twice a week to train. Do some research about the traditional ryu...don't get taken in by the "Johnny Hanshi's down by the gas station."

Kenjutsu is hard to learn. It is even harder to become really skilled at. (no, I am not skilled at it, but have trained a while). Do not be fooled by people doing karate or kempo while holding a sword. They are not swordsmen.

If you are not willing to invest at least a thousand dollars or so in a good sword, don't even consider it. The BB magazine, Sharper Image, Century swords are garbage plain and simple. They are for businessmen to keep on display in their office or lobby in order to give the false impression of sophistication or for HS kids to keep in their room and fantasize about.

Good luck!

 

[Sukerkin]

For those recommending that our young friend find an instructor in his area, you're probably going to run into problems.

From his profile.


Presumably his instructor approved of the previous junker he was training with.

Aye, Charles, I didn't like to say anything specific so as not to offend ... I might have been being a bit too subtle when I snuck in the 'find a JSA school' bit .

That really is the key thing for anyone wanting to learn one of the sword arts - go and get accepted at a school the sole purpose of which is the teaching of those arts.

I intend no slight or derisory comment when I say that the little bits of sword work seen in Karate and Aikido dojo do not really represent what the JSA are like. If anything, they represent what a bad swordsman would do, for against a good, properly trained swordsman, many of the anti-weapon techniques are a last ditch effort when you have nothing to lose by trying i.e. the training is for those occaisions where you have a chance of success.

 

[howard]

I intend no slight or derisory comment when I say that the little bits of sword work seen in Karate and Aikido dojo do not really represent what the JSA are like. If anything, they represent what a bad swordsman would do, for against a good, properly trained swordsman, many of the anti-weapon techniques are a last ditch effort when you have nothing to lose by trying i.e. the training is for those occaisions where you have a chance of success.

Hi Sukerkin,

I suspect that legitimate Aikidoka will take exception to part of your comment.

For context, it's worth noting that the founder of Aikido, as a licensed teacher of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, had considerable experience with the sword. Also, the sword art Ono Ha Itto Ryu was an integral part of Daito-ryu training in those days. In fact, Tokimune Takeda said on record that one cannot learn Daito-ryu without a thorough knowledge of the sword. His father, Sokaku, was a very accomplished swordsman, and was the primary one who integrated sword work into the unarmed techniques of Daito-ryu.

Many of Daito-ryu's techniques were originally defenses against sword attacks, or against attempts by an attacker to neutralize your ability to wield your own sword. Again, for a bit of context, when you sit in seiza in Daito-ryu, you fold your thumbs into your palm, to protect them from the tactic of severing the thumb to prevent the enemy from being able to use his sword.

If you'd like to see an example of fine integration of sword techniques into an art that is closely related to Daito-ryu, search youtube for clips with Don Angier sensei, the headmaster of Yanagi ryu. There's one from the 70s that includes sword offense, sword defense and unarmed techniques against unarmed enemies, and against sword attacks.


I'm not familiar enough with modern Aikido to comment on how it has evolved from its origins, but Ueshiba's original art definitely included viable sword defenses and influence from offensive sword techniques that are representative of what was going on in JSA during his time.