Kata?? wich one??
- Thread starter Manny
- Start date
I can enthusiastically recommend sanchin!
This is our founder, Shimabuku Soke, doing sanchin kata.
Sanchin is a 'breathing' kata and it teaches proper breathing as well as how to ground yourself. In my dojo, it is taught first; it is easy to learn the moves, but takes a lifetime to master it. We practice sanchin breathing in everything. At the seminar I was at this weekend, I overheard our instructor say "Everything is sanchin" and I believe that is correct.
I don't do sanchin to learn bunkai - the other kata are for that. I do sanchin to get my life working right.
This is our founder, Shimabuku Soke, doing sanchin kata.
Sanchin is a 'breathing' kata and it teaches proper breathing as well as how to ground yourself. In my dojo, it is taught first; it is easy to learn the moves, but takes a lifetime to master it. We practice sanchin breathing in everything. At the seminar I was at this weekend, I overheard our instructor say "Everything is sanchin" and I believe that is correct.
I don't do sanchin to learn bunkai - the other kata are for that. I do sanchin to get my life working right.
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dancingalone
Grandmaster
Depends on what you mean by most representative. And representative of what?
The hallmark kata of Shotokan are probably Bassai Dai and Kwanku Dai.
Goju-ryu: Sanchin for sure. I'm fond of Kururunfa myself. Naha-te forms are deceptively difficult however. They don't necessarily look like much outwardly, but unless you've mastered the internals from years and years of basics, any attempts are learning higher kata like Kururunfa or Suparinpei will be completely fruitless.
I think TKD people will find styles like Shotokan or Shorin-ryu most familiar to what they currently practice. If you are planning to learn from the Shito-ryu friend you have mentioned before, I'd suggest picking up Itosu Bassai Dai from him.
The hallmark kata of Shotokan are probably Bassai Dai and Kwanku Dai.
Goju-ryu: Sanchin for sure. I'm fond of Kururunfa myself. Naha-te forms are deceptively difficult however. They don't necessarily look like much outwardly, but unless you've mastered the internals from years and years of basics, any attempts are learning higher kata like Kururunfa or Suparinpei will be completely fruitless.
I think TKD people will find styles like Shotokan or Shorin-ryu most familiar to what they currently practice. If you are planning to learn from the Shito-ryu friend you have mentioned before, I'd suggest picking up Itosu Bassai Dai from him.
Sanchin Kata, holds the principles of Breath, Movement, and Structure. Not all styles have this kata, but all styles can benefit from these teachings. At face value it would appear to be very elementary, and the mistake would be to look for techniques of self defense within this kata. Of the 3 areas I mentioned above, there are sub areas to benefit from. Mainly, rooting, grounding, and power transferring. The manifestation of power through the body and out to your opponent is of great important. The above principles need to be recognized in all other kata, to truly grasp the art of Okinawan GoJu.
Sei-Enchin Kata, would be a favorite of mind, with elements of close in fighting techniques.
Sei-Enchin Kata, would be a favorite of mind, with elements of close in fighting techniques.
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OP
OP
Manny
Senior Master
Yes, I want my friend daniel to teach me the kata, as I recall he once told me the Okinawa Karate Do dojo he trains is Shito Ryu and when I did his black belt ratification I say something like Itosu when he presented his kata but maybe I am wrong.
Maybe Daniel and I will do an exchange, he will teach me kata and I will teach him one taeguk.
Thanx.
Manny
dancingalone
Grandmaster
You might consider asking him what he thinks he can teach you best, even if that's humble little Pinan Shodan. I have traded kata in the past with friends and the end results are rarely good, since you study different systems anyway, otherwise there wouldn't be a need for a trade to begin with.
<shrugs> But who really knows what is right? Most of us here know far more empty hand and kobudo kata than the average master did even a century ago and yet if we can believe the stories related by people like Funakoshi or Nagamine, the older masters with less kata could accomplish some incredible things not commonly seen today.
<shrugs> But who really knows what is right? Most of us here know far more empty hand and kobudo kata than the average master did even a century ago and yet if we can believe the stories related by people like Funakoshi or Nagamine, the older masters with less kata could accomplish some incredible things not commonly seen today.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Hi Manny,
I'm gonna poke my nose in here and give you some advice that you might not be looking for, but it's the best advice I've got: Don't do it. Or at least before you do, you need to examine what you are trying to accomplish and whether or not this is the proper way to go about it.
I believe that many people think kata is just movement. They think they can learn the movement, and *BINGO* they've got it.
But kata, or at least GOOD kata, is much more than the movement. There are very specific lessons in the kata, and there are very specific lessons that one needs to have had BEFORE beginning to learn the kata, in order for there to be any value in the kata. If those lessons are lacking, you will get very little from the practice beyond simple exercise. You need to have the proper background to make sense of the kata and recognize what the true lessons are in order for it to have any value.
Lots of people go on a quest for the magic bullet in martial arts. They believe that there is this special kata or special technique somewhere, and if they can just figure out what it is and then learn it, then all the problems in their training will go away and everything will fall into place. It doesn't work that way.
If you want to learn karate kata, I suggest you take the time and give the effort and become a student of karate under a good instructor. The kata you learn in that way will then have value and meaning, and won't be something that you just collected or got thru trade from someone but without any real understanding
I'm not a karate guy myself, I'm a kung fu guy. But personally, if someone came to me and asked to learn one of our forms, or suggested a trade without building the proper foundation first, I would say Absolutely No Way. It would be a waste of time and effort for both parties.
I went thru a long phase in my training where, in hindsight, I had to admit that I was really just collecting forms. I did not understand the lessons that the forms were meant to teach, I could not see beyond the superficial movement. I wasted a lot of years that way and I wish I had understood this a long time ago. My real skill would be much higher than it is if I hadn't wasted all that time and energy. However, once I clued into the problem and realized where I needed to focus my efforts, what source of information and training would help me understand the true value in the lessons, then the horizon opened up. And now I'm only practicing the forms that I really understand and for which I am getting the proper instruction. I'm only practicing a fraction of the number of forms that I used to practice but it is much much more fulfilling, functional, and meaningful.
I'm gonna poke my nose in here and give you some advice that you might not be looking for, but it's the best advice I've got: Don't do it. Or at least before you do, you need to examine what you are trying to accomplish and whether or not this is the proper way to go about it.
I believe that many people think kata is just movement. They think they can learn the movement, and *BINGO* they've got it.
But kata, or at least GOOD kata, is much more than the movement. There are very specific lessons in the kata, and there are very specific lessons that one needs to have had BEFORE beginning to learn the kata, in order for there to be any value in the kata. If those lessons are lacking, you will get very little from the practice beyond simple exercise. You need to have the proper background to make sense of the kata and recognize what the true lessons are in order for it to have any value.
Lots of people go on a quest for the magic bullet in martial arts. They believe that there is this special kata or special technique somewhere, and if they can just figure out what it is and then learn it, then all the problems in their training will go away and everything will fall into place. It doesn't work that way.
If you want to learn karate kata, I suggest you take the time and give the effort and become a student of karate under a good instructor. The kata you learn in that way will then have value and meaning, and won't be something that you just collected or got thru trade from someone but without any real understanding
I'm not a karate guy myself, I'm a kung fu guy. But personally, if someone came to me and asked to learn one of our forms, or suggested a trade without building the proper foundation first, I would say Absolutely No Way. It would be a waste of time and effort for both parties.
I went thru a long phase in my training where, in hindsight, I had to admit that I was really just collecting forms. I did not understand the lessons that the forms were meant to teach, I could not see beyond the superficial movement. I wasted a lot of years that way and I wish I had understood this a long time ago. My real skill would be much higher than it is if I hadn't wasted all that time and energy. However, once I clued into the problem and realized where I needed to focus my efforts, what source of information and training would help me understand the true value in the lessons, then the horizon opened up. And now I'm only practicing the forms that I really understand and for which I am getting the proper instruction. I'm only practicing a fraction of the number of forms that I used to practice but it is much much more fulfilling, functional, and meaningful.
It all depends on what you're best suited to do.
While it may not be the case, I'm going to discuss what I recommend to the brown belts and above. Only your sensei can tell you if you're ready to handle them. These are not kata that you can really start right off the bat, unless you are already familiar with Shotokan's kihon. Otherwise, you're trying to fit a round peg in a square hole.
There are some people who simply aren't that flexible, and they'll never be as fast as your faster people. That's fine, since there are plenty of kata that are better for showcasing strength and stability. There are kata such as Sochin, Bassai Dai, Kanku Dai, Jion, Gojushiho Dai, Nijushiho, etc., that don't require much flexibility at all, and anyone who has excellent fundamentals and keeps them well-practiced can certainly have as much of a chance of winning as the next guy.
For people who are more built for speed and dexterity, they can choose some of the dynamic kata, such as Unsu, Kanku Sho, Gankaku, etc.
Out of all of them, Unsu is my favorite.
While it may not be the case, I'm going to discuss what I recommend to the brown belts and above. Only your sensei can tell you if you're ready to handle them. These are not kata that you can really start right off the bat, unless you are already familiar with Shotokan's kihon. Otherwise, you're trying to fit a round peg in a square hole.
There are some people who simply aren't that flexible, and they'll never be as fast as your faster people. That's fine, since there are plenty of kata that are better for showcasing strength and stability. There are kata such as Sochin, Bassai Dai, Kanku Dai, Jion, Gojushiho Dai, Nijushiho, etc., that don't require much flexibility at all, and anyone who has excellent fundamentals and keeps them well-practiced can certainly have as much of a chance of winning as the next guy.
For people who are more built for speed and dexterity, they can choose some of the dynamic kata, such as Unsu, Kanku Sho, Gankaku, etc.
Out of all of them, Unsu is my favorite.
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dancingalone
Grandmaster
Michael, I agree with 99% of what you're saying. That said, Manny is obviously searching for something to supplement/replace his existing TKD training with. Comparing kata with his friend may be a good way for him to decide if karate (Shito-ryu, that is) is for him or not.
Not every exploration into new territory need be a super meaningful one. Sometimes a session or two is enough for you to decide whether you want to bother investing more time into it or whether it (or the teacher for that matter) is just not your cup of tea.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
very good points, I agree.
Sanchin is for everyone. You don't even have to be a martial artist to practice sanchin kata. It's got what you need.
Sanchin breathing is even being noted now as being beneficial to your life and health. Westerners breathe wrong starting soon after birth. We breathe from the top, expanding our ribcage to take in air. We weren't designed to work that way. Sanchin breathing emphasizes breathing from the diaphragm, as we were designed to breath in the first place. This brings in more air, and distributes it better in the lungs to give more oxygen to the lung tissue which needs it. In through the nose, out through the mouth.
Low centered balance with a gripping or rooted stance teaches staying over your one-point, keeping your power in your hara, develops chinkuchi.
I am a mere beginner, but I already know the good it has done me. It informs all my other kata, all my stances, all my breathing. Everything is sanchin.
I'd recommend it for anyone. Learn as much or as little of it as you can absorb; it's got more and more to offer as you get into it, but there is plenty for even the beginner like me.
Sanchin breathing is even being noted now as being beneficial to your life and health. Westerners breathe wrong starting soon after birth. We breathe from the top, expanding our ribcage to take in air. We weren't designed to work that way. Sanchin breathing emphasizes breathing from the diaphragm, as we were designed to breath in the first place. This brings in more air, and distributes it better in the lungs to give more oxygen to the lung tissue which needs it. In through the nose, out through the mouth.
Low centered balance with a gripping or rooted stance teaches staying over your one-point, keeping your power in your hara, develops chinkuchi.
I am a mere beginner, but I already know the good it has done me. It informs all my other kata, all my stances, all my breathing. Everything is sanchin.
I'd recommend it for anyone. Learn as much or as little of it as you can absorb; it's got more and more to offer as you get into it, but there is plenty for even the beginner like me.
Noah_Legel
Blue Belt
I think that trading forms is very interesting and can be a huge benefit to both parties, but you have to be knowledgeable AND willing to learn.
Sanchin or Naihanchi/Tekki. Both kata are considered to be the "heart" of various styles and are often taught first. They contain very valuable basic concepts and I'm sure your friend can explain them as he teaches you, at least to the level necessary for someone learning the first kata of a style. Now, if he doesn't know those or they aren't a key part of his style then obviously they won't be your best option--your best bet is going to be to learn whatever he thinks would suit you best and go from there.
Sanchin or Naihanchi/Tekki. Both kata are considered to be the "heart" of various styles and are often taught first. They contain very valuable basic concepts and I'm sure your friend can explain them as he teaches you, at least to the level necessary for someone learning the first kata of a style. Now, if he doesn't know those or they aren't a key part of his style then obviously they won't be your best option--your best bet is going to be to learn whatever he thinks would suit you best and go from there.
searcher
Senior Master
I am loving this.
I want to make a few recommendations:
Seisan-The first one in Isshinryu and the first for Chito-ryu. One of my favorite kata and, IMO, one of the most important kata.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrcUAJR8ECk
Sochin-an absolutely great kata and one that is often overlooked by many karateka.
Rohai-I have a special place for this kata in my list. I used it for years at demonstrations and for competition. Rohai can come in some variations. I like Rohai Dai from Chito-ryu.
Naihanchi-very good representation of karate kata. Loved heavily by Choki Motobu and those that have followed his example.
Manny-it all depends on what you are wanting to get from the kata. I hope it is not just for show and you learn some bunkai for the kata you decide to learn. No bunkai=dancing.
I want to make a few recommendations:
Seisan-The first one in Isshinryu and the first for Chito-ryu. One of my favorite kata and, IMO, one of the most important kata.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrcUAJR8ECk
Sochin-an absolutely great kata and one that is often overlooked by many karateka.
Rohai-I have a special place for this kata in my list. I used it for years at demonstrations and for competition. Rohai can come in some variations. I like Rohai Dai from Chito-ryu.
Naihanchi-very good representation of karate kata. Loved heavily by Choki Motobu and those that have followed his example.
Manny-it all depends on what you are wanting to get from the kata. I hope it is not just for show and you learn some bunkai for the kata you decide to learn. No bunkai=dancing.
I go along with Bill and his recommendation of Sanchin. I also reinforce his adage "everything is Sanchin", but you will need a skillful practitioner to show you what that means. With respect to all who practise other than Okinawan Goju and Uechi Ryu, I believe most other styles followed or varied the Goju form of Chojun Miyagi. The Uechi Ryu and Goju forms of Sanchin came from the same region of China, Fujian province, but are significantly different. Miyagi closed the hands and slowed the strike to train 'extension'. The Uechi Ryu form is closer to the original Chinese form.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7YDkZrJ-V0&feature=related
.. and the Jundokan version as taught by Miyagi.
With regard to any other kata from any style, I would only learn it if the person showing you the kata can also show you plausible bunkai for the entire kata. (As Searcher said kata=bunkai). Without the bunkai kata is just a choreographed combination of techniques. I don't believe it's worth learning any kata just for the sake of performing it.
Here is an example of bunkai performed by Masaji Taira Sensei at the Jundokan. For those who know Gekisai Dai Ichi kata, they will recognise that this is just the kata performed from start to finish. If Tori doesn't block at any stage, he gets hit and the bunkai finishes. From start to finish, all Tori does from the first punch is respond. All his responses are predicted. Either he gets hit (game over) or he blocks with his only option. If he manages to block the bunkai continues. In reality, that wouldn't be for too long.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwMZNPkCdL0&feature=related
It will be my great privilege to train with Taira Sensei in Australia next week.
All traditional kata are good and I like Naihanchi in particular even though it is not a Goju kata. Of the Goju kata, I like Shisochin as the bunkai is great. Here is a slow version which shows the kihon kata. Sorry, I don't have a clip of the bunkai.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...119362A5CCC2A4CD4F87119362A5CCC2A4&FORM=LKVR2#
:asian:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7YDkZrJ-V0&feature=related
.. and the Jundokan version as taught by Miyagi.
With regard to any other kata from any style, I would only learn it if the person showing you the kata can also show you plausible bunkai for the entire kata. (As Searcher said kata=bunkai). Without the bunkai kata is just a choreographed combination of techniques. I don't believe it's worth learning any kata just for the sake of performing it.
Here is an example of bunkai performed by Masaji Taira Sensei at the Jundokan. For those who know Gekisai Dai Ichi kata, they will recognise that this is just the kata performed from start to finish. If Tori doesn't block at any stage, he gets hit and the bunkai finishes. From start to finish, all Tori does from the first punch is respond. All his responses are predicted. Either he gets hit (game over) or he blocks with his only option. If he manages to block the bunkai continues. In reality, that wouldn't be for too long.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwMZNPkCdL0&feature=related
It will be my great privilege to train with Taira Sensei in Australia next week.
All traditional kata are good and I like Naihanchi in particular even though it is not a Goju kata. Of the Goju kata, I like Shisochin as the bunkai is great. Here is a slow version which shows the kihon kata. Sorry, I don't have a clip of the bunkai.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...119362A5CCC2A4CD4F87119362A5CCC2A4&FORM=LKVR2#
:asian:
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TimoS
Master of Arts
I'm not so sure about that. Sure, it's good if your system is "built around" it, for others (like me) it would at best be a mere curiosity, because as I've understood things, it teaches a different "body mechanic" than e.g. Shorin ryu Seisan (which is the cornerstone for our style). This means that, especially to beginners, it might even teach bad habits and bad habits is something that are really hard to get rid of.
Noah_Legel
Blue Belt
I think you are confusing "bad habits" with "different habits"--if there is value in it then it isn't bad, just different.
TimoS
Master of Arts
Well, yes and no. IMO, habits can be bad when they are considered from a particular style's (or school's) perspective. For example, the shikodachi-zenkutsudachi turn that especially Shorin ryu Seibukan uses is most likely considered a bad habit in e.g. Shorin ryu Shorinkan.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
If it is inappropriate in the larger context, it's a bad habit.
Sojobo
Green Belt
Many years ago, a social friend of mine asked me if I could teach him a kata for a show he was in (nothing to do with ma, he was a stage actor who did am-dram).
He asked because he knew I trained in Karate - so I agreed and decided to teach him Naihanchi (Wado-ryu version). Obviously, I was only showing him the "Omote" or surface level movements (like a chorographer ) as there wasn't enough time to explain anything else - and anyway he wouldn't have had the training to understand anything else.
He did his show and about a week or so later asked if he could start Karate. He trained solidly for about 8 years after that and only stopped due to work commitments.
So I agree, it may spark things, however you won't get a lot more out of it unless you continue your training in the art where the kata comes from - to uncover the "Ura" as it were - and that's where you'd start with the Omote of Pinan shodan and work it out from there with a good instructor.
Sojobo
Black Belt Jedi
Blue Belt
You would like to learn Seiyunchin kata Goju-ryu Karate version. I've been told that this kata is the jewel of Goju-ryu because it has the hard and the soft techniques in the kata.
Here is a video of me doing the kata:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdR5DlJqF0E&feature=channel_video_title
Here is a video of me doing the kata:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdR5DlJqF0E&feature=channel_video_title
