Karate and Shortened lifespan?
- Thread starter miyagi
- Start date
I've heard about this before. Apparently, because of the focus on forced breathing in certain styles, many of the master practitioners of old died young. This seems to be more common in the Goju and Uechi styles and not so much in the Shorin styles.
Ok, watched the video and am probably going to purchase the book. It looks interesting. It looks like some of the classical training methods really are damaging. The breathing techniques and stanchion practice stand out. Also, other techniques that cause inflammation like maki wars training could also be really unhealthy, according to the movie.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
How does breathing techniques cause health problems? I cant watch the clip right now but that just sounds funny
Did you read the book? Have you considered that there might be more information there than what is just in the video?
From what I have read, it's the hard forced breathing combined with the beating that tests the structure of sanchin that is not healthy for a person.
Here is some information gathered by medical practitioners that seems to indicate that sanchin practice is no more dangerous than doing squats in a gym.
http://www.olemiss.edu/orgs/karate/sanchin.html
http://www.olemiss.edu/orgs/karate/sanchin.html
My feeling is and always has been that it's not Sanchin or any other breathing exercises that is the problem. If done improperly with the emphasis on constricting the air from flowing through the mouth freely, this could in fact add to the detriment. Sanchin in particular, came from China where such problems don't seem to be an issue.
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No. I'm not wasting my money. They make a claim and present their reasons. Their methodology is pathetic.
If they had good science, they'd have been well advised to present it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
I'm not so sure, some arguments take longer than13 minutes to present. Anyway, I don't know if this has any veracity at all, but it does seem to dovetail with some of the rumors that have propagated in karate communities. People have wondered why certain karate masters, particularly people who practiced Naha-te styles, died much younger than those that practiced Tomari or Shorin styles. If the book does nothing more than show a statistical correlation between Naha styles and shortened lifespans, that is indicating something worth noting.
I would be interested in reading the book though I am not sure I am that keen that I am prepared to pay for the experience.
Like DD says, I would like to see more data before I blame Sanchin. This hypothesis has been round for many years but Sanchin is practised in so many different ways, even within the same basic style. For example the breathing and testing in Okinawan Goju Ryu is totally different to the breathing and testing in Japanese Goju Kai. Uechi Ryu is more like the Japanese Goju.
Does inflammation play a role? Quite likely as inflammation can be painful and debilitating. But, you are not going to have a great deal of inflammation from performing Sanchin.
So, despite the risks, I will continue performing Sanchin and hopefully continue to live a happy and healthy life for many years to come.
Like DD says, I would like to see more data before I blame Sanchin. This hypothesis has been round for many years but Sanchin is practised in so many different ways, even within the same basic style. For example the breathing and testing in Okinawan Goju Ryu is totally different to the breathing and testing in Japanese Goju Kai. Uechi Ryu is more like the Japanese Goju.
Does inflammation play a role? Quite likely as inflammation can be painful and debilitating. But, you are not going to have a great deal of inflammation from performing Sanchin.
So, despite the risks, I will continue performing Sanchin and hopefully continue to live a happy and healthy life for many years to come.
I would be interested in reading the book though I am not sure I am that keen that I am prepared to pay for the experience.
Like DD says, I would like to see more data before I blame Sanchin. This hypothesis has been round for many years but Sanchin is practised in so many different ways, even within the same basic style. For example the breathing and testing in Okinawan Goju Ryu is totally different to the breathing and testing in Japanese Goju Kai. Uechi Ryu is more like the Japanese Goju.
Does inflammation play a role? Quite likely as inflammation can be painful and debilitating. But, you are not going to have a great deal of inflammation from performing Sanchin.
So, despite the risks, I will continue performing Sanchin and hopefully continue to live a happy and healthy life for many years to come.
I hope for the same as well. Sanchin practice looks fun and i'd like to try it some time!
The inflamation factor may be something for people to consider. Some karate styles do hard makiwara training and hard sparring and with both of these it's reasonable assume that there is an increased amount of inflamation. Also, in other contact sports like football, we know the hard training does in fact shorten the lifespans of the athletes.
IDK, maybe moderation is the lesson here.
The practice of Karate itself isn't necessarily detrimental to the body. The effect of the shorter lifespans could have quite a few other causes, especially since today's medical care vastly supercedes that what was available just a few decades ago. Also, people are more aware of better nutrition these days.
I don't disagree, though, that the methods used in some schools *could* have a detrimental effect. As Makalakumu stated, it's no different any other physical activity. After all, an older fellow who tries to play 2 hours of tennis running around the court, trying to out-rally his opponent, everyday is probably going to be feeling the effects in his elbow (tennis elbow), or maybe will feel some joint inflammation in his knees, since hard courts aren't exactly that forgiving.
Does that mean he shouldn't play? Of course not. Instead of trying to play the game like a teenager, he would play further up, cutting off the ball before it has a chance to take a wide reaching bounce, or perhaps switch to a "chip and charge" approach to the game, favoring net play, instead of baseline play. For that matter, quite a few older folks can "hang in there" with the younger folks by playing smarter, not harder.
After all, it may not exactly be a wise thing for a 60 year old to be training in Karate like a 20 year old would. At the age of 60, your joints can't absorb the same kind of punishment that a younger fellow's could, nor are the muscles of the body quite as strong as they used to be. Hence, the vigorous blow to the abdomen that a younger fellow could easily shrug off, could very well be much more dangerous for the 60 year old to absorb, since there's less muscle available to absorb the shot.
As we get older, our training methods will have to adapt, just like the above mentioned tennis player. An older practitioner shouldn't be pounding his hands into a makiwara for an hour a day, nor should he be constantly taking many falls on hardwood surfaces. Does this mean that he shouldn't use the old methods? Not necessarily. Instead, he would simply do things in moderation, and be more aware of his bodily situation.
The alternative, of course, is the cessation of training, but are you willing to give up the health *benefits* that come from Karate training? I think not...
I don't disagree, though, that the methods used in some schools *could* have a detrimental effect. As Makalakumu stated, it's no different any other physical activity. After all, an older fellow who tries to play 2 hours of tennis running around the court, trying to out-rally his opponent, everyday is probably going to be feeling the effects in his elbow (tennis elbow), or maybe will feel some joint inflammation in his knees, since hard courts aren't exactly that forgiving.
Does that mean he shouldn't play? Of course not. Instead of trying to play the game like a teenager, he would play further up, cutting off the ball before it has a chance to take a wide reaching bounce, or perhaps switch to a "chip and charge" approach to the game, favoring net play, instead of baseline play. For that matter, quite a few older folks can "hang in there" with the younger folks by playing smarter, not harder.
After all, it may not exactly be a wise thing for a 60 year old to be training in Karate like a 20 year old would. At the age of 60, your joints can't absorb the same kind of punishment that a younger fellow's could, nor are the muscles of the body quite as strong as they used to be. Hence, the vigorous blow to the abdomen that a younger fellow could easily shrug off, could very well be much more dangerous for the 60 year old to absorb, since there's less muscle available to absorb the shot.
As we get older, our training methods will have to adapt, just like the above mentioned tennis player. An older practitioner shouldn't be pounding his hands into a makiwara for an hour a day, nor should he be constantly taking many falls on hardwood surfaces. Does this mean that he shouldn't use the old methods? Not necessarily. Instead, he would simply do things in moderation, and be more aware of his bodily situation.
The alternative, of course, is the cessation of training, but are you willing to give up the health *benefits* that come from Karate training? I think not...
I'm sure I speak for a couple of others around here when I say I might have to get you to talk to some of my students about taking age into account. They don't seem to recognise the age difference and to be fair, I don't either. I was nearly 60 when I first started aikido and the rolling is getting harder. But in karate ... I haven't hit the wall yet.The practice of Karate itself isn't necessarily detrimental to the body. The effect of the shorter lifespans could have quite a few other causes, especially since today's medical care vastly supercedes that what was available just a few decades ago. Also, people are more aware of better nutrition these days.
I don't disagree, though, that the methods used in some schools *could* have a detrimental effect. As Makalakumu stated, it's no different any other physical activity. After all, an older fellow who tries to play 2 hours of tennis running around the court, trying to out-rally his opponent, everyday is probably going to be feeling the effects in his elbow (tennis elbow), or maybe will feel some joint inflammation in his knees, since hard courts aren't exactly that forgiving.
Does that mean he shouldn't play? Of course not. Instead of trying to play the game like a teenager, he would play further up, cutting off the ball before it has a chance to take a wide reaching bounce, or perhaps switch to a "chip and charge" approach to the game, favoring net play, instead of baseline play. For that matter, quite a few older folks can "hang in there" with the younger folks by playing smarter, not harder.
After all, it may not exactly be a wise thing for a 60 year old to be training in Karate like a 20 year old would. At the age of 60, your joints can't absorb the same kind of punishment that a younger fellow's could, nor are the muscles of the body quite as strong as they used to be. Hence, the vigorous blow to the abdomen that a younger fellow could easily shrug off, could very well be much more dangerous for the 60 year old to absorb, since there's less muscle available to absorb the shot.
As we get older, our training methods will have to adapt, just like the above mentioned tennis player. An older practitioner shouldn't be pounding his hands into a makiwara for an hour a day, nor should he be constantly taking many falls on hardwood surfaces. Does this mean that he shouldn't use the old methods? Not necessarily. Instead, he would simply do things in moderation, and be more aware of his bodily situation.
The alternative, of course, is the cessation of training, but are you willing to give up the health *benefits* that come from Karate training? I think not...
To be more serious, in Goju, the way the Okinawans practise Sanchin, the breathing is not as forced and so any internal pressure would be less. Also I'm sure we don't preform the kata as often as they did. The testing is to determine correct posture and focus, not to have pieces of wood broken across your back. I remember in Japanese Goju always being kicked in the stomach.
The concern has obviously arisen from the fact that Okinawans have for many years had some of the longest living people on Earth. You would then expect someone with a lifetime of healthy living and physical conditioning to be among the longest living group. That this is not the case bares investigation. But, although this study could be right about the earlier practitioners in Okinawa in particular, I am not sure that it would translate to modern times in Western countries. I think I will continue with my martial arts for as long as physically possible, hopefully another 20 years at least!
:s472:
I'm sure I speak for a couple of others around here when I say I might have to get you to talk to some of my students about taking age into account. They don't seem to recognise the age difference and to be fair, I don't either. I was nearly 60 when I first started aikido and the rolling is getting harder. But in karate ... I haven't hit the wall yet.
To be more serious, in Goju, the way the Okinawans practise Sanchin, the breathing is not as forced and so any internal pressure would be less. Also I'm sure we don't preform the kata as often as they did. The testing is to determine correct posture and focus, not to have pieces of wood broken across your back. I remember in Japanese Goju always being kicked in the stomach.
The concern has obviously arisen from the fact that Okinawans have for many years had some of the longest living people on Earth. You would then expect someone with a lifetime of healthy living and physical conditioning to be among the longest living group. That this is not the case bares investigation. But, although this study could be right about the earlier practitioners in Okinawa in particular, I am not sure that it would translate to modern times in Western countries. I think I will continue with my martial arts for as long as physically possible, hopefully another 20 years at least!
:s472:
I really hope this is the case, because I love my karate and I feel great after training. I would hate to learn that it was unhealthy.
The point about the long lifespans of Okinawans bears repeating. Okinawa has the highest percentage of centenarions in it's population and this is due to things like diet, active lifestyles, and strong friendships. So, if on average Okinawans live so much longer, why did so many karate practicioners die young?
That is a profound question.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
By many stories I've read about some of the people mentioned in the clip these guys didn't live the most healthy lifestyle. Then you look at some modern day karate masters like Morio Higaonna I can't believe he's in his 70s. Last time I met him he dropped me to my knees while only holding the tip of my finger. He looks and moves better then a lot of 40 year olds.
punisher73
Senior Master
That is true, many of the masters who died at a younger age did not take care of themselves very well. We must also remember, that many of the masters died very close to WW2 era, and that played a huge role.
The other thing to take into account is that much of the hype about okinawans living longer, is false. The "okinawan diet" for example, says that they live on lean meats etc. The okinawans typically have alot of pork in their diet and it is fatty. More recently, the Japanese govt looked into why there were so many people over 100 and tried to figure it out and what they found was fraud. The family members were dead and they kept saying they were alive to keep cashing checks.
If we look at some other factors that come into play into life expectancy we see 1) Infant mortality rate 2) Childhood deaths 3) Rate of disease. So what's the violence rate in Okinawa? I'm betting it is far far lower than in America, which is going to skew the data. Also, if you look at the data, it shows that Okinawan men are not much better off than most other men in the world. What really sets okinawa's rate up is for the women at age 86, it brings their whole average up.
So back to the "shortened lifespan" and karate. Karate training will not lower your lifespan. Abusing your body, no matter what physical or nonphysical activity is what will shorten your life span.
Lot's of wisdom in your post, but this line stuck out. Just curious, do you have a source for this info?
