K.K.W. T.K.D. VS. Sport T.K.D.

[terryl965]

First off I wanted to say this is not about what is better or who is right but more of a question for the general masses out there looking for either one. I have always been a firm believer in you can teach both with some help and guideness from others, so at my school we have always done both. So here lays the problem with the general public what can help them understand the difference in the classes? So I thought I would ask the good folks here what they thought and pu together a flyer for my school, Here are the question I thought I would include in the flyer and looking for some input to responses.

1. What is K.K.W. T.K.D.?

2. What is Sport T.K.D.?

3. What would you consider to be the main difference?

4. Who should do sport T.K.D?

5. Who should do K.K.W. T.K.D.?

6. What would be the benefits for either one?

7. What are some of the dis-advantages for both?

8. How can we find the common ground so one can do both?


I do relize that this is a longshot here on MT, but that the good that can out of this thread far outwieghs the bad. Lets all try and remember to not make this another flame of words and get this locked down, I am really trying to get some great feedback for my school and the people that might want to train here.

 

[dancingalone]

Good topic, Terry. I certainly would like to know better the differences between what you term KKW TKD and sport TKD.

I've seen people here on MT explain that there is indeed a difference while also remarking that the KKW requirements are fairly light, which allows individual instructors to fill in the gaps with their own material. This seems to be a dichotomy to me though. Perhaps the KKW curriculum is light precisely because one is supposed to be working on the sport side the rest of time?

I will follow your thread with interest. I'm sure the answers to the questions you post will answer my own greatly.

 

[bluekey88]

First off I wanted to say this is not about what is better or who is right but more of a question for the general masses out there looking for either one. I have always been a firm believer in you can teach both with some help and guideness from others, so at my school we have always done both. So here lays the problem with the general public what can help them understand the difference in the classes? So I thought I would ask the good folks here what they thought and pu together a flyer for my school, Here are the question I thought I would include in the flyer and looking for some input to responses.

1. What is K.K.W. T.K.D.?

KKW TKD is the style of tkd promoted by the Kukkiwon in korea. It is descended from shotokan karate. It consists of the following disciplines: Sparring, Breaking, Forms, and self-defense. In addition, KKW TKD allows schools to add other things to the basic curriculum, such as weapons. I personally feel that falling skills, poomse application, other sparring scenarios (grappling, mma style, boxing, etc.), awareness drills, and conditioning need to be a part of the curriculum. YMMV. KKw tkd is the "traditional" art.

2. What is Sport T.K.D.?

It is a subset of kkw tkd that focuses on competition in sparring and poomse. It follows the competition rules as laid out by the WTF. It is an olympic sport.

3. What would you consider to be the main difference?

Sport tkd is more of a specialist thing. Narrower focus. Seems to do better at doign things liek developing speed, conditioning and timing in sparring and precision in poomse. But does so at the cost of not teaching poomse application, self-defense, etc. there is some crossover in my opinion. Like I said, sport tkd is part of the whole of tkd. Some choose to focus on it more than others.

4. Who should do sport T.K.D?

Anyone who tries KKW tkd should at least try and be familiar with the sportive concepts. The precision needed to do the forms helps later with learning applications (in my experience), the skills learned from full-contact sparring carry over as well. Anybody that finds they like the competition should conitnue to do it regardless of age or skill level, though it really is a younger person's game.

5. Who should do K.K.W. T.K.D.?

KKW tkd should be the core of any curriculum...so everyone. That should be the foundation. Those that like competition can then specialize, but they need that larger framework. It gives them something to grow into as their sport career winds down.

6. What would be the benefits for either one?

KKW TKD can teach simple. no-nonsense self-defense. It is a good basic martial art. It can promote discipline, health, self-confidence, etc. Sport TKD promotes conditioning, speed, timing, good sportsmanship (up to the teacher/coach), how to work within a ruleset and adjust, how to read an opponent...all good things that can be carried over into the larger sphere of KKW tkd.

7. What are some of the dis-advantages for both?

Sport tkd has a limited rule set and narrower focus. if one does not train carefully, one can lose site of the bigger picture. Expensive sport to compete in with big push for Olympics, but very few actual opportunities for most to reach that level realistically. Neither group has reconciled one with the other leaving many of us "average joes" being pulled in conflicting directions needlessly. finally, POLITICS! too much politics.

8. How can we find the common ground so one can do both?

not sure of a clear answer. For me, I train and do what excites me. Sometimes I focus on the sport, other times I'm focused more on the self-defense or the poomse application, etc. I focus on something trying to accomplish a goal and then switch to new goals over time. In the end, I never get bored...although I suppose it'll take me longer to master everything. I think it's up to the individual practitioners and their schools to do the reconcilliation. Not an impossible thing and apparently not something many tkd practitioners are into doing.


Peace,
Erik

 

[Manny]

Terry this could be the nicest post in a while here, I am with you in this post,I want to learn the way of thinking of all our amigos here about the subjetc KKW TKD and Sport TKD.

I think that KKW TKD or TRADITIONAL TKD has a broader field and the Sport TKD has a narrowed focus as Erik wrote.

Sport TKD is very specialized about the kicks,combos and techs because it focuses on the WTF sparring rules and equipment (electronic equipment) and the rules set only allows certain areas to score and not manny techs can be used but kicks to the hogu and helmet.

Traditional TKD has and use a lot of techs of diferent kinds as a MA.

Manny

 

[StudentCarl]

...I train and do what excites me...In the end, I never get bored...

Training excites me; politics doesn't.
People growing through effort excite me; coasters don't.
People who live the tenets excite me; hypocrites don't.
People who add positive energy excite me; complainers don't.
I'll never get so good I stop improving, so how could I get bored?

KKW vs. Sport? I think it's healthy to try both, but whatever balance excites you is where you belong. I'm glad we have both and can't see ever being done with either one.

 

[terryl965]

Danvingalone to me sport TKD is a competition, where a specific set of rules are use to make the competitors play on a level playing field. KKW is more of the traditional side and will be more of a way of life, that means carrying your tenets into your everyday life.

 

[Archtkd]

KKW TKD is the style of tkd promoted by the Kukkiwon in korea. It is descended from shotokan karate. It consists of the following disciplines: Sparring, Breaking, Forms, and self-defense. In addition, KKW TKD allows schools to add other things to the basic curriculum, such as weapons. I personally feel that falling skills, poomse application, other sparring scenarios (grappling, mma style, boxing, etc.), awareness drills, and conditioning need to be a part of the curriculum. YMMV. KKw tkd is the "traditional" art.

Not to be to picky here, but but the broad statement that all Kukkiwon taekwondo is a descedant of Shotokan Karate is innacurate. The nine main Kwans, which united to fom KKW, did not all have Shotokan roots. The Changmookwan, Jidokwan and Kangdukwon, for example, have roots in Chinese Chuan Fa and Toyama Kanken's Shudokan Karate (which is also influenced by Chuan Fa.
-- Also the idea that the Kukkiwon "allows" or even suggests that training in weapons should be part of basic Taekwondo curricular is a stretch. This is a teacher and student preference, which has nothing to do with the Kukkiwon or WTF.

Maybe I'm wrong, but if there is anyone out there who has ever seen or attended a pure weapons training seminar or event organized by the Kukkiwon in recent times, please let us know. Self defense againt weapons yes, but training in weapons as a means of offense and defense and forms is not part of general KKW taekwondo.

Also, I have yet to meet or hear a senior WTF representative highlight the differences between "their" Taekwondo and KKW taekwondo. Korean Taekwondo instructors that the WTF dispatches overseas, especially to developing countries, are Kukkiwon trained and certified. They might focus on sparring for elite athletes, but they are also very well versed and teach all other aspects of Kukkiwon taekwondo.

I think there is a general tendency by many of us to pick and choose what we want to learn and teach in Taekwondo and general martial arts and then declare those things to be the official preferences the WTF or Kukkiwon.

 

[dortiz]

Have to sort of agree. All horses are animals but not animals are horses.
So all WTF are supposed to be Kukkiwon. The WTF is the sport specific body. So you trained, ranked and follwed guidelines set by the Kukkiwon and you joined the WTF to compete.
Get ready though for the misunderstanding or interpertation to take on its own life!
Already WTF for sport sets different standards in competition that the usual Kukkiwon and that the begining. The WTF is now about to start issuing its own ranks and get full support from the SK goverment.
The WTF is about to become something different from the Kukkiwon.
So maybe it was one and the same but the truth is they started moving in different directions and very soon will be two seperate things.

 

[Archtkd]

Have to sort of agree. All horses are animals but not animals are horses.
So all WTF are supposed to be Kukkiwon. The WTF is the sport specific body. So you trained, ranked and follwed guidelines set by the Kukkiwon and you joined the WTF to compete.
Get ready though for the misunderstanding or interpertation to take on its own life!
Already WTF for sport sets different standards in competition that the usual Kukkiwon and that the begining. The WTF is now about to start issuing its own ranks and get full support from the SK goverment.
The WTF is about to become something different from the Kukkiwon.
So maybe it was one and the same but the truth is they started moving in different directions and very soon will be two seperate things.

I think the possibilty of a split between the WTF and Kukkiwon increased the day that Un Yong Kim ceased being the head of both organizations. When Kim was in charge the old Korean Kwan guard always assumed Taekwondo would grow internationally to their direct benefit, while also protecting their place and position as the Korean vanguard of the art and sport.

The WTF is no longer just a Korean organization and does not have the loyalty to Kwans, which still wielded power in the Kim era. The last elections for president of the WTF brought that issue to light, with some grandmasters making the misguided call that only a Korean can be the head of the WTF.

That said, it remains whether a full split between the WTF and Kukkiwon will occur. While focusing on the sporting aspect of Taekwondo the WTF also has been working on its own international research and development of Taekwondo and encouraged the writing of fairly serious scholarly stuff that encompasses what we are calling Kukkiwon Taekwondo. The WTF's latest instructor manual "The Book of Teaching & Learning Taekwondo - Official Publication of the World Taekwondo Federation" for example, is a better instructor manual than any that I have seen from the Kukkiwon.

 

[d1jinx]

I will try to be brief and not repeat most of what has been said.

1. What is K.K.W. T.K.D.?
The study and practice of the "Martial Art" side of taekwondo

2. What is Sport T.K.D.?
The training and focusing on the competition of taekwondo techniques.

3. What would you consider to be the main difference?
I say the MAIN difference would be, KKW TKD focuses on life applications, and Sport focuses on what "works" in the "GAME" and not necessarily in reality.

4. Who should do sport T.K.D?
Those who have or are currently learning the basic and fundamentals of taekwondo. All sport competitors should have a "foundation" with roots in traditional TKD. (I dont believe they should be limited to KKW tkd only.)

5. Who should do K.K.W. T.K.D.?
Any and everyone who wishes to fully understand the "ART" of taekwondo. (that is ofcourse if you are a student in the other programs like ITF or ATA, those will teach you the same basic "foundation" and not require you to be KKW. KKW is NOT the only traditional TKD and not necessarily the right one for you)

6. What would be the benefits for either one?
KKW: Tradition and a basic standardization / formality known worldwide, a bare minimum of knowledge. A "brotherhood" amungst fellow TKD-rs

Sport: the physical application of techniques in a controlled environment. Builds confidence and teaches control of emotions such as fear and pain. The physical conditioning and stamina are huge here also.


7. What are some of the dis-advantages for both?
KKW: The bare minimum standard set by KKW is too often the "only" requirement needed for many schools and produces too many un-worthy BBs.

Sport: Adaptation of techniques needed to "score" in the "GAME" wont always work in real self defense and leave a pure "sport" practicioner at the mercy of a false confidence in thier abilities.


8. How can we find the common ground so one can do both?
EASY. Teach and offer both. Require students to have a basic understanding of TKD techniquies and discipline PRIOR to any participation of a "sport" event.


STUDENTS below 1st DAN should not be allowed to fully devote thier training to the "SPORT" side. It should be a mandatory requirement to do both. I see too much emphisist placed on "DANNY", a 7 year old yellow belt who has talent and instead of directing it toward a strong foundation in TKD, he is being forced to make weight and win gold in his bracket at juniors. BS. who gives a **** about a 7 year old yellowbelt junior olympic champion. that should not be allowed. Juniors should be Red belt and above. Keep lower ranks at the local level only. We need to focus on teaching the art and not creating yellow belt world champions! hell that title alone sounds foolish.

rant over.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

First off I wanted to say this is not about what is better or who is right but more of a question for the general masses out there looking for either one. I have always been a firm believer in you can teach both with some help and guideness from others, so at my school we have always done both. So here lays the problem with the general public what can help them understand the difference in the classes? So I thought I would ask the good folks here what they thought and pu together a flyer for my school, Here are the question I thought I would include in the flyer and looking for some input to responses.

Good idea!

1. What is K.K.W. T.K.D.?
The original taekwondo kwans were organized into the Kukkiwon and their individual names retired. The Kukkiwon created a minimum set of standards that mark a school as 'Kukkiwon' but that also allow the school to teach beyond those standards. On a more organizational level, any taekwondo taught in a school that uses the Kukkiwon for certification purposes would be considered Kukkiwon as well.

The standards are designed to be an area of overlap between all member schools, not an exhaustive curriculum. They include Taegeuk forms, Forms for dan grade practitioners, and a fairly broad selection of techniques.

2. What is Sport T.K.D.?
Sport taekwondo exists when a taekwondo organization creates a rule set under which members may fight for points in a tournament. Some rule sets allow for full contact, some are continuous, some are point/stop, some require specialized gear, some require only a cup, mouthpiece, and gloves. The most famous league and rule set is the World Taekwondo Federation, who's rule set is used in the Olympics.

3. What would you consider to be the main difference?
One is a martial art and one is a rule set. Since this is about the Kukkiwon specifically, the sport taekwondo most often contrasted with it is that of the WTF.

The WTF rule set encourages mid to high level kicks and discourages the use of hand techniques. The rule set also has caused the development of a backward leaning, hands down stance in competition. Neither good nor bad, but it looks markedly different from what someone using taekwondo in an actual fight would look like.

4. Who should do sport T.K.D?
Medical or physical limitations not withstanding, anyone who would like to try. Anyone who wants to make the olympic team.

5. Who should do K.K.W. T.K.D.?
Medical or physical limitations not withstanding, anyone who would like to try.

6. What would be the benefits for either one?
The ability to give and receive hits, skills of distance management, timing, increased dexterity, fitness, confidence, and endurance, mental toughness, and a fun factor are benefits of both.

Sport taekwondo has all of the advantages of competing in a sport. The sense of accomplishment, competitive striving to reach goals, the thrill of victory, possible medals and trophies, and of course, the chance to test your skills against people that you do not normally train with in a reasonably safe environment.

The benefit of KKW taekwondo is the sense of accomplishment in learning new techniques and forms, and being better prepared to defend one's self should the need arise.

7. What are some of the dis-advantages for both?
Sport taekwondo has all of the disadvantages of competing in any sport. Crazy parents, unsportsmanlike competitors, gear issues, travel issue, etc.

8. How can we find the common ground so one can do both?
Honestly, there is little common ground between Kukkiwon taekwondo and WTF sport taekwondo. The common ground is that the rule set was developed by the Jidokwan, which is one of the kwans that merged into the Kukkiwon. And both have kicks. That pretty much sums up the common ground.

Once again, neither good nor bad. Nothing prevents a person from doing both. What are in common needs for both is drive, development of stamina, development of kicks, and a desire to improve.

I do realize that this is a longshot here on MT, but that the good that can out of this thread far outweighs the bad. Lets all try and remember to not make this another flame of words and get this locked down, I am really trying to get some great feedback for my school and the people that might want to train here.

Best wishes to you, Terry!

I think one idea might be to have a separate program for sport (if you do not already) so that those who are competing can train towards their competition goals while those who want to learn the MA syllabus can do so without having to deal with the peculiarities of competition. Coming up with a more realistic set of sparring rules for the SD crowd might also help.

And certainly, students can be encouraged to do both.

Daniel