Just what is unamerican?

[Touch Of Death]

In my estimation, if the governement forces other people to pay for your health care, it is anti-American as well.

Everyone is certainly entitled to think differntly of course.

Where this will become a bigger problem is when the rest of the country has to pay for healthcare for all the illegals flooding into the country thru Mexico.

The America I like to think of is one where you could go out and stake some land, build on it, and live off of it yourself. It was up to you if you helped your neighbor. Not all this communist crap.

It would seem to me the problem is our adversariel stance with mexico and the out of control legal proffession that is raising medicle costs. Either way people can't afford it and American kids are going to die. That, to me, seems un-American. :asian:
Sean

 

[michaeledward]

like giving more power to government, less responsibilities left for the people. Stuff like high taxes and socialist programs like Universal Health Care.

where you could go out and stake some land, build on it, and live off of it yourself. It was up to you if you helped your neighbor

I can see it now ...

I the person, of the land staked out on my own, in order to form a more perfect individualism, estabilish isolationism, insure domestic solitude (if I so desire), provide for my own defense, promote my own welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty for myself and my posterior, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the Individualist Persons of the Western Hemisphere.

 

[heretic888]

In my estimation, if the governement forces other people to pay for your health care, it is anti-American as well.

By that logic, then the following are "anti-American" insitutions:

1) Public schools.
2) The military.
3) The government.
4) Humanitarian sub-organizations.
5) All taxes.
6) All police departments.
7) All fire departments.
8) All post offices.
9) All libraries.
10) All other public service agencies.
11) Etcetera...

 

[rmcrobertson]

Thank you, Thomas Hobbes. By all means, screw the very young and the very old, screw the poor, screw the helpless. I can't say if that's un-American, but unless something radical changed since Bible School, it sure as hell is un-Christian.

One hopes that no one posting here ever needs their society's assistance.

 

[MisterMike]

By that logic, then the following are "anti-American" insitutions:

1) Public schools.
2) The military.
3) The government.
4) Humanitarian sub-organizations.
5) All taxes.
6) All police departments.
7) All fire departments.
8) All post offices.
9) All libraries.
10) All other public service agencies.
11) Etcetera...

Then you don't have enough to go on to base your conclusions. Obviously our form of government is outlined in the Constitution, so it IS American.

 

[michaeledward]

Then you don't have enough to go on to base your conclusions. Obviously our form of government is outlined in the Constitution, so it IS American.

I don't follow ... the Constitution says "promote the general welfare"

Why do "Public Schools", "military", "humanitarian sub-organizations" count, but "health care" does not?

Or am I somehow not understanding your words again?

 

[MisterMike]

I can see it now ...

I the person, of the land staked out on my own, in order to form a more perfect individualism, estabilish isolationism, insure domestic solitude (if I so desire), provide for my own defense, promote my own welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty for myself and my posterior, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the Individualist Persons of the Western Hemisphere.

So since you feel Individualism, solitude, self defense (wow from a "martial artist") and self sufficiency are bad, no-one else has a right to them?

Heaven help us.

 

[OUMoose]

I would say my definition of "american" is: Someone who has the courage to stand up and defy authority to break away from tyranny and opression, no matter what the cost.

Of course, if that's the case, 99.99% of americans today aren't very "american". They're too busy with their SUV's, savings accounts, 2.5 children, and white picket fences. That was not "the american dream". The real "american dream" was to simply live with the freedom to think what you will.

I'm probably going to pick up a couple little red marks on my rep for this, but so what. THAT'S what american is. Speaking my mind.

*blinks*

OK. Getting on a rant now, so I'm gonna shut up (plus it's time to go home from work)

 

[MisterMike]

I don't follow ... the Constitution says "promote the general welfare"

Why do "Public Schools", "military", "humanitarian sub-organizations" count, but "health care" does not?

Or am I somehow not understanding your words again?

That's right. It doesn't say "tax them 50% and INSURE the general welfare"

Also, Promote the General Welfare is in the Preamble and confer's no power.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Thank you, Thomas Hobbes. By all means, screw the very young and the very old, screw the poor, screw the helpless. I can't say if that's un-American, but unless something radical changed since Bible School, it sure as hell is un-Christian.

One hopes that no one posting here ever needs their society's assistance.

Robert,
This is where conservatives impliment the seperation of church and state. :asian:
Sean

 

[rmcrobertson]

"The complete interdependence of modern society escaped them entirely."

Robert A. Heinlein, "The Roads Must Roll."




To Those Born After


I

To the cities I came in a time of disorder
That was ruled by hunger.
I sheltered with the people in a time of uproar
And then I joined in their rebellion.
That's how I passed my time that was given to me on this Earth.

I ate my dinners between the battles,
I lay down to sleep among the murderers,
I didn't care for much for love
And for nature's beauties I had little patience.
That's how I passed my time that was given to me on this Earth.

The city streets all led to foul swamps in my time,
My speech betrayed me to the butchers.
I could do only little
But without me those that ruled could not sleep so easily:
That's what I hoped.
That's how I passed my time that was given to me on this Earth.

Our forces were slight and small,
Our goal lay in the far distance
Clearly in our sights,
If for me myself beyond my reaching.
That's how I passed my time that was given to me on this Earth.

II

You who will come to the surface
From the flood that's overwhelmed us and drowned us all
Must think, when you speak of our weakness in times of darkness
That you've not had to face:

Days when we were used to changing countries
More often than shoes,
Through the war of the classes despairing
That there was only injustice and no outrage.

Even so we realised
Hatred of oppression still distorts the features,
Anger at injustice still makes voices raised and ugly.
Oh we, who wished to lay for the foundations for peace and friendliness,
Could never be friendly ourselves.

And in the future when no longer
Do human beings still treat themselves as animals,
Look back on us with indulgence.

Bertolt Brecht

 

[Tgace]

Even so we realised
Hatred of oppression still distorts the features,
Anger at injustice still makes voices raised and ugly.
Oh we, who wished to lay for the foundations for peace and friendliness,
Could never be friendly ourselves.



Hmmmmm.............dosent that apply on many levels? And to many people?

 

[Rich Parsons]

I would say my definition of "american" is: Someone who has the courage to stand up and defy authority to break away from tyranny and opression, no matter what the cost.

Of course, if that's the case, 99.99% of americans today aren't very "american". They're too busy with their SUV's, savings accounts, 2.5 children, and white picket fences. That was not "the american dream". The real "american dream" was to simply live with the freedom to think what you will.

I'm probably going to pick up a couple little red marks on my rep for this, but so what. THAT'S what american is. Speaking my mind.

*blinks*

OK. Getting on a rant now, so I'm gonna shut up (plus it's time to go home from work)

OU Mouse,

Ok, if I am allowed to think and do want I want without stepping on your toes and in your pursuit of your thoughts, then what is wrong if I have a motorcycle, Convertible, and Truck? A house for my cat and myself? And a savings account for the future incase somethign breaks?

Personally, I think you should live your own life. This is good. Yet, if I disagree with you, does this then make me wrong and un-American?

I would say no. Yet, that is my opinion. :asian:

Good post in my mind, just curious is all

 

[heretic888]

Then you don't have enough to go on to base your conclusions. Obviously our form of government is outlined in the Constitution, so it IS American.

Poppycock and balderdash.

I was simply going by your own line of reasoning. You very promptly stated:

"In my estimation, if the governement forces other people to pay for your health care, it is anti-American as well."

In other words, if you are forced to pay for something that does not directly benefit you (i.e., a collective welfare as opposed to individual welfare), then that is "anti-American".

Police departments are part of the "collective good" (i.e., you pay for them even if they may not directly benefit you), as are fire departments, public schools, libraries, humanitarian organizations (i.e., charities), the military, and the government itself.

I am not saying any of these institutions are "anti-American" or "un-American", Mike. I am saying that, by the standards of the convoluted "logic" you have used to deign Universal Healthcare as such, then your arguments could equally apply to all these institutions, as well.

I am "forced" to pay for public schools, even though neither I nor any of my family members currently attend them. I am "forced" to pay for my local fire department, even though I have never been the victim of any incendiary-related incident. I am "forced" to pay for the military, even though I oppose our current administration's use of this institution. I am "forced" to pay for local and federal law enforcement, even though I have never been the victim of a violent crime.

By the logic you have used in labeling universal health care as "anti-American", than all of the above institutions are "anti-American", as well.

Unless, of course --- ding! ding! Your argument is completely false and contrived?!

WE HAVE A WINNER!! *cues music*

 

[Jay Bell]

I thought I might ask what, exactly, is unamerican?

John Kerry.

:shrug:

 

[Touch Of Death]

John Kerry.

:shrug:

Interesting how you left out the "Be specific" part. How exactly is John Kerry unamerican???

 

[Jay Bell]

How John Kerry is Unamerican

When religion and politics don't have a sense of humor, everything gets screwed.

 

[Touch Of Death]

How John Kerry is Unamerican

When religion and politics don't have a sense of humor, everything gets screwed.

So your saying it was unamerican to be against a war we could not win and had no end in sight. Gee that sounds like...
Sean

 

[MisterMike]

Poppycock and balderdash.

I was simply going by your own line of reasoning. You very promptly stated:

"In my estimation, if the governement forces other people to pay for your health care, it is anti-American as well."

In other words, if you are forced to pay for something that does not directly benefit you (i.e., a collective welfare as opposed to individual welfare), then that is "anti-American".

No, not just something. See where you go wrong is when you start off with "In other words." Well, other words aint my words. Let me help. It was an example of a socialist program at the federal level.

Ding! Ding! Wrong answer Charlie, but show 'em what they've won!

Well Bob, Heretic has won a free lesson that the police, libraries, fire stations are ALLL at the local level. Yes, some towns do not even have them if they cannot afford them.

**Cues picture of a volunteer fire dept.**

But yes, even towns vote in some services that they feel would benefit the people. But at least if you don't like it, you can go to the town next over. On a national level, I really DON'T like the idea of moving to Canada or Mexico.

Police departments are part of the "collective good" (i.e., you pay for them even if they may not directly benefit you), as are fire departments, public schools, libraries, humanitarian organizations (i.e., charities), the military, and the government itself.

I am not saying any of these institutions are "anti-American" or "un-American", Mike. I am saying that, by the standards of the convoluted "logic" you have used to deign Universal Healthcare as such, then your arguments could equally apply to all these institutions, as well.

Now THAT comment is looking pretty convoluted. It really wasn't based on all that much ya see. It came from a little equation:

National*Socialist*Programs != American

It kind of applies to things like:
"Universal" Health Care
"Social" Security
...

The thing about Police and Fire work, well they go to where they are needed. As for the military, well, we don't really use the militias anymore unles we have an anti-gun ad to run, so I guess it'll have ta do.

I am "forced" to pay for public schools, even though neither I nor any of my family members currently attend them. I am "forced" to pay for my local fire department, even though I have never been the victim of any incendiary-related incident. I am "forced" to pay for the military, even though I oppose our current administration's use of this institution. I am "forced" to pay for local and federal law enforcement, even though I have never been the victim of a violent crime.

By the logic you have used in labeling universal health care as "anti-American", than all of the above institutions are "anti-American", as well.

Unless, of course --- ding! ding! Your argument is completely false and contrived?!

WE HAVE A WINNER!! *cues music*

I hope I cleared up my "logic" for you.

 

[michaeledward]

So since you feel Individualism, solitude, self defense (wow from a "martial artist") and self sufficiency are bad, no-one else has a right to them?

Heaven help us.

I made no statement to the effect that Individualism is bad; nor solitude, nor self defense. Take a little trip with me now, down the road of IRONY.

Premise 1 - MisterMike stated that "our form of government is outlined in the Constitution"

Premise 2 - MisterMike also said "if the governement forces other people to pay for your health care, it is anti-American "

By combining the statements in these two premises ... government can not force other people to pay for something from which you benefit ... and our form of government is outlined in the Constitution ... I came up with a new Preamble to the Constitution, using MisterMike's beliefs.

You see, the Preamble of the Constitution explains why the founding fathers (or Thomas Jefferson) went through the effort of writing the damn thing.

For those not familiar with the preamble to the United States Constitution, you can view it, in its original form here:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.preamble.html

What's more, I believe in another great American document, the Declaration of Independence; which posits that each of us has the right to 'the pursuit of happiness' ... and I in no way would want to inpinge on that right. Persue your solitude, as you will, and may you find happiness in it.

Mike