Judo Self Defense

macher

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Is there a lineage of Judo that isn’t for sport but for pure self defense? Thanks!
 

Dirty Dog

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Is there a lineage of Judo that isn’t for sport but for pure self defense? Thanks!

Well, no, because Judo (if memory serves) was developed from jujitsu with the specific goal of developing a martial sport.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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During the

- ancient time, people tried to make a combat art into a sport.
- modern time, people tried to make a sport back into combat art.

Combat at is the goal. Sport is the temporary training path.
 

Hanshi

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Korean YUDO is often as combat art rather than sport. Judo has kicks, strikes and "illegal" techniques in its original form. Regardless, judo is excellent training to suppliment s-d.
 

Gerry Seymour

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IIRC, Judo originally contained a self-defense curriculum (goshin waza) within the larger curriculum. As long as the full range of Judo is being trained (rather than the more limited range typically seen in competition these days), Judo translates to self-defense pretty easily. The lack of a solid striking (and counter-striking) foundation is the real weakness.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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The lack of a solid striking (and counter-striking) foundation is the real weakness.
This is why the wrestling single leg and double legs are very risky. When you use both of your hands to attack your opponent's leg/legs, you don't have extra hand to protect your head.

In this clip, his opponent's left punch is totally ignored.


This is the hip throw used in the striking environment.

 
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Danny T

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Judo Atemi-waza: body-striking techniques
Although taught within the full Judo curriculum these striking techniques are forbidden in standard judo competitions rules therefore most are not taught in standard Judo schools

Ude-ate-waza: arm striking techniques

Kobushi-ate-waza: fist techniques
  1. Tsukkake or Tsuki-kake: Straight punch
  2. Mae-naname-ate: Front crossing blow
  3. Naname-tsuki or Mawashi-tsuki: Roundhouse punch or circular punch
  4. Tsuki-age or Ago-tsuki: Uppercut
  5. Uchi-oroshi or Uchi-kake: Downward strike or hammer fist
  6. Yoko-ate: Side strike or backfist
  7. Yoko-uchi: Strike to side
  8. Gammen-tsuki: Thrust punch or jab
  9. Kami-ate or Ue-ate: Upward blow
  10. Shimo-tsuki: Downward blow
  11. Ushiro-sumi-tsuki: Rear corner blow
  12. Ushiro-uchi: Rear blow
  13. Ushiro-tsuki: Rear strike (over shoulders)
  14. Ryote-tsuki: Two hand blow

Hiji-ate-waza: elbow techniques

  1. Mae-hiji-ate: Elbow blow
  2. Ushiro-hiji-ate: Rear elbow strike
  3. Age-hiji-ate: Rising elbow strike
  4. Shita-hiji-ate or Oroshi-hiji-ate : Downward elbow strike

Tegatana-ate-waza: knife hand techniques

  1. Kirioroshi: Downward knife hand cut
  2. Naname-uchi: Slanting knife hand blow

Yubisaki-ate-waza: fingertip techniques

  1. Tsuki-dashi: Hand Thrust
  2. Ryogan-tsuki: Strike both eyes with fingertips
  3. Suri-age: Face slide or forehead thrust
  4. Yahazu: Strikes with the V-shape of the hand
  5. Me-tsubushi: Whipping the back of fingers to strike opponent's eyes

Ashi-ate-waza: leg striking techniques


Sekito-ate-waza: ball of foot techniques
  1. Mae-geri: Front kick
  2. Mae-naname-geri: Front crossing kick or oblique kick
  3. Naname-geri or Mawashi-geri: Roundhouse Kick
  4. Taka-geri: High front kick

Kakato-ate-waza: heel techniques

  1. Yoko-geri: Side kick
  2. Ushiro-geri: Backward kick
  3. Ashi-fumi: Foot stomp

Hiza-gashira-ate-waza: knee techniques

  1. Mae-hiza-ate: Front knee
  2. Yoko-hiza-ate: Side knee
  3. Hiza-otoshi: Dropping knee

Atama-ate-waza: head striking techniques (head butts)

  1. Mae-atama-ate: Strike with the forehead
  2. Ushiro-atama-ate: Strike with the occiput
  3. Atama-tsuki: Head thrust

Kyusho: vital spots (points to strike on the body)

  1. Tendo: Top of the head, bregma
  2. Uto or Miken: Between the eyes, nation
  3. Kasumi: Temple of the head
  4. Jinchu: Below the nose, philtrum
  5. Zen-keibu: Front side of neck with the Adam's apple
  6. Gwanto or Kachikake or Shita-ago: Point of the chin
  7. Dokko: Mastoid process
  8. Suigetsu or Mizu-ochi: Solar plexus
  9. Denko: Right lowest floating rib
  10. Getsuei: Left lowest floating rib
  11. Myojo: 1-inch below the belly button, hypogastrium
  12. Tsuri-gane or Kokan: Testicles
  13. Shitsu or Shita-kansetsu: Knee
  14. Ashi-no-ko: The surface of foot

Uke-waza: blocks and parries

  1. Tenkai: Outside turning or body rotation
  2. Age-uke: Rising block
  3. Harai-uke: Sweeping block
  4. Tegatana-uke: Knife hand block
  5. Shotei-uke: Palm block
  6. Juji-uke: Cross block
  7. Hiki-uke: Grasping block
  8. Morote-uke: Two hand block
 

Danny T

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This is why the wrestling single leg and double legs are very risky. When you use both of your hands to attack your opponent's leg/legs, you don't have extra hand to protect your head.

In this clip, his opponent's left punch is totally ignored.


This is the hip throw used in the striking environment.

Yeah...that's why people don't do single leg or double leg takedowns in fights.

As to the O Goshi:
Can be performed as an underhook or an overhook even in a striking situation. Set up is important. Oh and the overhook version has several counters as well.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Yeah...that's why people don't do single leg or double leg takedowns in fights.

As to the O Goshi:
Can be performed as an underhook or an overhook even in a striking situation. Set up is important. Oh and the overhook version has several counters as well.
You may get knock out when you use single leg or double legs. You won't get knock out when you use under hook hip throw, or over hook hip throw. Why in UFC people use single leg and double legs more often than under hook, or over hook, I truly don't know.

To assume that your hands can reach to your opponent's legs but his hands can't reach to your head may not be realistic.

Of course if you put your hands in front of your knees (as the blue guy in this picture), your opponent's single leg or double legs hands will have to pass through your hands first. Again, you don't have extra hand to protect your head.

wrestling_posture.jpg


You have 2 arms and your opponent also have 2 arms. If you use one arm to control your opponent's leading arm, and use your other arm to

1. wrap his waist, his other arm will be free.
2. lock his head, his other arm will be free.
3. under hook his shoulder, his other arm will not be free.
4. over hook his shoulder, his other arm will not be free.

IMO, 2, 3, 4 > 1

Since when you move your opponent's head, his body will follow, the risk to let him has a free arm may be worthwhile. Definitely 1 is the most risky situation.
 
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drop bear

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This is why the wrestling single leg and double legs are very risky. When you use both of your hands to attack your opponent's leg/legs, you don't have extra hand to protect your head.

In this clip, his opponent's left punch is totally ignored.


This is the hip throw used in the striking environment.


The two most successful throws in MMA?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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The two most successful throws in MMA?
Also both are the most risky throws (reason as I have described). You don't need to use both arms for single leg. One arm should be enough. This way you can still have a free arm to deal with your opponent's arms. IMO, the following single leg is less risky.

When you use your right hand to push your opponent's right shoulder,

- his right hand can't punch you.
- If you also hide your head to the left side of your right arm, his left hand also can't punch you.

Today this move may not be allowed to be used on Judo mat.

 
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Gerry Seymour

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Judo Atemi-waza: body-striking techniques
Although taught within the full Judo curriculum these striking techniques are forbidden in standard judo competitions rules therefore most are not taught in standard Judo schools

Ude-ate-waza: arm striking techniques

Kobushi-ate-waza: fist techniques
  1. Tsukkake or Tsuki-kake: Straight punch
  2. Mae-naname-ate: Front crossing blow
  3. Naname-tsuki or Mawashi-tsuki: Roundhouse punch or circular punch
  4. Tsuki-age or Ago-tsuki: Uppercut
  5. Uchi-oroshi or Uchi-kake: Downward strike or hammer fist
  6. Yoko-ate: Side strike or backfist
  7. Yoko-uchi: Strike to side
  8. Gammen-tsuki: Thrust punch or jab
  9. Kami-ate or Ue-ate: Upward blow
  10. Shimo-tsuki: Downward blow
  11. Ushiro-sumi-tsuki: Rear corner blow
  12. Ushiro-uchi: Rear blow
  13. Ushiro-tsuki: Rear strike (over shoulders)
  14. Ryote-tsuki: Two hand blow

Hiji-ate-waza: elbow techniques

  1. Mae-hiji-ate: Elbow blow
  2. Ushiro-hiji-ate: Rear elbow strike
  3. Age-hiji-ate: Rising elbow strike
  4. Shita-hiji-ate or Oroshi-hiji-ate : Downward elbow strike

Tegatana-ate-waza: knife hand techniques

  1. Kirioroshi: Downward knife hand cut
  2. Naname-uchi: Slanting knife hand blow

Yubisaki-ate-waza: fingertip techniques

  1. Tsuki-dashi: Hand Thrust
  2. Ryogan-tsuki: Strike both eyes with fingertips
  3. Suri-age: Face slide or forehead thrust
  4. Yahazu: Strikes with the V-shape of the hand
  5. Me-tsubushi: Whipping the back of fingers to strike opponent's eyes

Ashi-ate-waza: leg striking techniques


Sekito-ate-waza: ball of foot techniques
  1. Mae-geri: Front kick
  2. Mae-naname-geri: Front crossing kick or oblique kick
  3. Naname-geri or Mawashi-geri: Roundhouse Kick
  4. Taka-geri: High front kick

Kakato-ate-waza: heel techniques

  1. Yoko-geri: Side kick
  2. Ushiro-geri: Backward kick
  3. Ashi-fumi: Foot stomp

Hiza-gashira-ate-waza: knee techniques

  1. Mae-hiza-ate: Front knee
  2. Yoko-hiza-ate: Side knee
  3. Hiza-otoshi: Dropping knee

Atama-ate-waza: head striking techniques (head butts)

  1. Mae-atama-ate: Strike with the forehead
  2. Ushiro-atama-ate: Strike with the occiput
  3. Atama-tsuki: Head thrust

Kyusho: vital spots (points to strike on the body)

  1. Tendo: Top of the head, bregma
  2. Uto or Miken: Between the eyes, nation
  3. Kasumi: Temple of the head
  4. Jinchu: Below the nose, philtrum
  5. Zen-keibu: Front side of neck with the Adam's apple
  6. Gwanto or Kachikake or Shita-ago: Point of the chin
  7. Dokko: Mastoid process
  8. Suigetsu or Mizu-ochi: Solar plexus
  9. Denko: Right lowest floating rib
  10. Getsuei: Left lowest floating rib
  11. Myojo: 1-inch below the belly button, hypogastrium
  12. Tsuri-gane or Kokan: Testicles
  13. Shitsu or Shita-kansetsu: Knee
  14. Ashi-no-ko: The surface of foot

Uke-waza: blocks and parries

  1. Tenkai: Outside turning or body rotation
  2. Age-uke: Rising block
  3. Harai-uke: Sweeping block
  4. Tegatana-uke: Knife hand block
  5. Shotei-uke: Palm block
  6. Juji-uke: Cross block
  7. Hiki-uke: Grasping block
  8. Morote-uke: Two hand block
I've long suspected that the core striking curriculum in NGA is derived not from Shotokan Karate-do (the officially named source) but at least partly from Kodokan Judo. This is based on the distinct lack of some things I'd expect in a Shotokan approach to striking (stepping to angles and such) and the fact that the strikes themselves are only passingly similar to Shotokan. It might be they are simply changed over time and influenced by others' knowledge, but I have this nagging suspicion. Unfortunately, I've never had a chance to really get into strikes with someone who learned the Judo atemi-waza, so it's nothing more than a hunch.
 

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You may get knock out when you use single leg or double legs. You won't get knock out when you use under hook hip throw, or over hook hip throw. Why in UFC people use single leg and double legs more often than under hook, or over hook, I truly don't know.

To assume that your hands can reach to your opponent's legs but his hands can't reach to your head may not be realistic.

Of course if you put your hands in front of your knees (as the blue guy in this picture), your opponent's single leg or double legs hands will have to pass through your hands first. Again, you don't have extra hand to protect your head.

wrestling_posture.jpg


You have 2 arms and your opponent also have 2 arms. If you use one arm to control your opponent's leading arm, and use your other arm to

1. wrap his waist, his other arm will be free.
2. lock his head, his other arm will be free.
3. under hook his shoulder, his other arm will not be free.
4. over hook his shoulder, his other arm will not be free.

IMO, 2, 3, 4 > 1

Since when you move your opponent's head, his body will follow, the risk to let him has a free arm may be worthwhile. Definitely 1 is the most risky situation.
I'm not very good at single-leg and double-leg, but here's my input. Take it for what it's worth.

When you shoot in for a leg, the leg isn't moving nearly as fast as your head. You only have to grab, making initial contact with some part of your arm (about 1/3 of the arm is a valid area for contact) on some part of the leg (nearly 1/2 of the leg is a valid starting point). To hit you in the head, he has to make contact with a fast-moving head (smaller target) with his fist (too far away for forearms, so smaller valid contact area). And for the punch to matter it has to be hard, the shoot for the leg can even result in a sketchy grip and still turn into an ugly takedown. Much of the advantage goes to the fighter shooting in if he is good at it. Knees come into the equation, but part of being good at shooting in is developing the skill of recognizing when the knees aren't very available (weight shift, double-weighted, etc.). Once a double-leg is started, it's pretty hard to counter.

Conversely, to get double hooks (of almost any variety), you have to step into a grappler's wheelhouse. There are a fair number of counters that work well early in the process. Once the hooks are in, you have a lot of options (so countering the hip throw might just mean you end up going down another way), but countering the entry is easier, IMO. Now, if my single/double-leg was better, maybe I'd also be better at countering them, but I find a hip throw easier to counter even once they get in.

EDIT: And to be clear, I'm a big fan of hip throws.
 

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Also both are the most risky throws (reason as I have described). You don't need to use both arms for single leg. One arm should be enough. This way you can still have a free arm to deal with your opponent's arms. IMO, the following single leg is less risky.

When you use your right hand to push your opponent's right shoulder,

- his right hand can't punch you.
- If you also hide your head to the left side of your right arm, his left hand also can't punch you.

Today this move may not be allowed to be used on Judo mat.

That entry protects against some things, but is more exposed to others. A right hook would be a great counter, if you have a strong inside hook.
 

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You may get knock out when you use single leg or double legs. You won't get knock out when you use under hook hip throw, or over hook hip throw.
You should not throw a punch. When you don't throw a punch, you have both your hands to defend. When you punch, you only have one hand to defend, you opponent can just slip to the side you are punching from, and knock you out.

You should not throw a kick. When you are not kicking, you have both feet on the ground so you can move. When you kick, you have one foot in the air, so you can not move. You opponent can just move around your kick and push you down.

The thing is, with every attack you make, you leave one or more openings. There is not an attack you can make, that does not create an opening for your opponent. To make matters worse, every technique has a counter. (most have many counters) You can even counter someones defense and use it against them. So... now what? Everything you do, creates an opportunity for your opponent to use the opening to knock you out or counter what you are doing and knock you out... even if you never attack, and are purely defending.

Its all about timing and set up. You have to use the move at the right time, in the right situation and with the right set up. Some techniques require very specific situations and set ups. Others are much more general. But all techniques, will leave you open, especially when not set up or timed properly. You should not be ruling out techniques because they can be countered... that rules all of them out. You should not rule out techniques that leave openings... that rules them all out. Instead, you should learn what is required in set up and timing to make each technique work. Applying a technique takes a lot more than just the physical ability to move your body.

Why in UFC people use single leg and double legs more often than under hook, or over hook, I truly don't know.
Well, maybe you should take the opportunity to to learn why. There is a ton of empirical evidence showing single and double leg take downs work. There is a lot of empirical evidence that judo style hip throws work as well. Yes, you can find that occasionally, they can get knocked out in the attempt. But, look at the data... there are probably tens of thousands of successful single and double leg take downs in MMA, there are probably thousands of Judo style hip throws MMA... you can probably name off the top of your head the few times someone was knocked out in the attempt.

One thing I find interesting is that many of the most successful, and impactful, double leg take downs are counters to the other guy punching.

At the end of the day, all techniques have to be used in the right situation, with the right set up and timing. Its easy to sit back and watch the TV and say "he should have just knocked him out." But, these techniques have been around a long time... people in real combat situations and in sport combat situations find these effective. Maybe we should take some time to learn why the opponent decides not to simply knock him out, when he tries a double leg.
 

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I've long suspected that the core striking curriculum in NGA is derived not from Shotokan Karate-do (the officially named source) but at least partly from Kodokan Judo. This is based on the distinct lack of some things I'd expect in a Shotokan approach to striking (stepping to angles and such) and the fact that the strikes themselves are only passingly similar to Shotokan. It might be they are simply changed over time and influenced by others' knowledge, but I have this nagging suspicion. Unfortunately, I've never had a chance to really get into strikes with someone who learned the Judo atemi-waza, so it's nothing more than a hunch.
Interesting. So NGA doesn't use angles for attacking?
 

Gerry Seymour

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Interesting. So NGA doesn't use angles for attacking?
Most in NGA don't teach the angling-out seen in Shotokan (which sets up their kicks, if their opponent doesn't close the space). We tend to enter and exit off-line more similarly to Ueshiba's Aikido, though often entering close than they do. We tend to think of movement more in terms of circles and cutting across the circle rather than creating an angle.
 

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