Judo Self Defense

Kung Fu Wang

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There is not an attack you can make, that does not create an opening for your opponent.
We are comparing the amount of risk taking during throw here. There are 3 different kind of throws.

1. Use both arms to deal with your opponent's leg/legs.
2. Use one arm to deal with your opponent's leg.
3. Use leg to deal with your opponent's leg.

The risk factor is 1 > 2 > 3.

If you use "diagonal cut", when you use one leg to deal with one of your opponent's legs, you can have both arms to deal with his both arms.

For single leg and double legs, you let your hand to do your leg job. IMO, it's better to let your hand to do your hand job and to let your leg to do your leg job.

 
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frank raud

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I'm far from knowing the language or even much about Japanese but isn't Kodokan merely 'the place or building' that the training is conducted? And is it not Judo which is taught at the Kodokan?
Kodokan judo is the only judo. The sporting aspect that most people are familiar with(Olympic style if you will) is cover by IJF rules, but it is still Kodokan judo. When people speak of KOSEN judo, it is a subset of Kodokan judo. If you cannot figure out who to use a "sport" throw or sweep in a self defense setting, that is unfortunate. The landing from a throw, for somehow who probably doesn't know how to breakfall, can be traumatic and a fight ender. Even if you know how to breakfall, landing on concrete makes for a rough landing. A rear naked choke is a rear naked choke in a self defense application or a sporting application. The complete study of judo will include Goshin jutsu, the self defense aspect of judo, from the formalized application of the kata, to the understanding of the principals that underly the techniques. A lot of clubs focus only on the competitive side of judo, but that is not the complete art.
 

Gerry Seymour

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We are comparing the amount of risk taking during throw here. There are 3 different kind of throws.

1. Use both arms to deal with your opponent's leg/legs.
2. Use one arm to deal with your opponent's leg.
3. Use leg to deal with your opponent's leg.

The risk factor is 1 > 2 > 3.

If you use "diagonal cut", when you use one leg to deal with one of your opponent's legs, you can have both arms to deal with his both arms.

For single leg and double legs, you let your hand to do your leg job. IMO, it's better to let your hand to do your hand job and to let your leg to do your leg job.

Your formula ignores some of the other factors. When you use a leg to deal with his leg, you're only standing on one leg. That's an increased risk. If you do it at the right time, it is balanced by the advantage of having both hands to control his upper body (not only his arms). It also ignores that the upper half is affected by what happens below it, so if you can upset his structure more quickly by using one or both arms on his leg, you are in a better position than if it takes you longer by keeping the arms up to defend. Everything is about compromises.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I'm far from knowing the language or even much about Japanese ...
This why I try not to use any Chinese in my posts.

I use

- Chinese wrestling (instead of Shuai Chiao).
- Single leg (instead of Kou)
- Double legs (instead of Lou)
- Under hook (instead of Chao).
- Over hook (instead of Quan).
- ...
 

Kung Fu Wang

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When you use a leg to deal with his leg, you're only standing on one leg.
Agree with you there. The single leg balance is the trade off. Again, I assume we started this discussion because one of your post stated that punching is not considered in sport Judo. If we talk about which throw can give your better balance, Of course I will say

2 legs on the ground > 1 leg on the ground
 

wab25

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We are comparing the amount of risk taking during throw here. There are 3 different kind of throws.

1. Use both arms to deal with your opponent's leg/legs.
2. Use one arm to deal with your opponent's leg.
3. Use leg to deal with your opponent's leg.

The risk factor is 1 > 2 > 3.

If you use "diagonal cut", when you use one leg to deal with one of your opponent's legs, you can have both arms to deal with his both arms.

For single leg and double legs, you let your hand to do your leg job. IMO, it's better to let your hand to do your hand job and to let your leg to do your leg job.

That is your opinion. The data supports another opinion.

Fight Stats: Double Leg Is The Most Common MMA Takedown, Nurmagomedov Most Successful Takedown Artist

This article looks at 799 MMA fights with 2072 successful take downs. They break down the number of each type.

"The top was the double leg takedown. It accounted for 37.4 percent of all takedowns recorded. In fact, the double leg accounted for more takedowns than the single leg, outside trip and bodylock combined."

From their data double leg accounted for 798 take downs, followed by single leg for 353 take downs. Hip throws only were used 63 times. (I like hip throws :( ) O'soto Gari, your "diagonal cut," accounted for 13.

Your first video showed O'goshi (hip throw) and you were worried about being hit with his left hand. You were watching a teaching demonstration with pauses in the motion. The very first part of that throw is to off balance the other guy forward and to his right. There should be very little weight at all on his left foot, and his posture should be broken. At this instant, he can generate very little power with that hand. An instant later, his feet are off the ground. From this point on, there is zero power to that left arm. (in order to generate power, he must use physics... he must push off the ground to generate punching power, but his feet have already left the ground)

The empirical data shows the double and single leg take downs to be the most effective type of take down... even if they are using arms to deal with legs.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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The empirical data shows the double and single leg take downs to be the most effective type of take down... even if they are using arms to deal with legs.
This may have to do with that most of the MMA fighters came from the BJJ (or wrestling) background than from the Judo background. As far as I know the single leg is not even allowed to be used on the Judo mat today.
 
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Tony Dismukes

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One factor to consider is that MMA fighters dont wear the sort of clothing that can be used for handles in throwing. When your opponent wears a jacket or belt (as in Judo, Shuai Chiao, Mongolian wrestling, Cornish wrestling, Glima, etc) then upper body throws are more available.
 

Tony Dismukes

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That is your opinion. The data supports another opinion.

Fight Stats: Double Leg Is The Most Common MMA Takedown, Nurmagomedov Most Successful Takedown Artist

This article looks at 799 MMA fights with 2072 successful take downs. They break down the number of each type.

"The top was the double leg takedown. It accounted for 37.4 percent of all takedowns recorded. In fact, the double leg accounted for more takedowns than the single leg, outside trip and bodylock combined."

From their data double leg accounted for 798 take downs, followed by single leg for 353 take downs. Hip throws only were used 63 times. (I like hip throws :( ) O'soto Gari, your "diagonal cut," accounted for 13.

Your first video showed O'goshi (hip throw) and you were worried about being hit with his left hand. You were watching a teaching demonstration with pauses in the motion. The very first part of that throw is to off balance the other guy forward and to his right. There should be very little weight at all on his left foot, and his posture should be broken. At this instant, he can generate very little power with that hand. An instant later, his feet are off the ground. From this point on, there is zero power to that left arm. (in order to generate power, he must use physics... he must push off the ground to generate punching power, but his feet have already left the ground)

The empirical data shows the double and single leg take downs to be the most effective type of take down... even if they are using arms to deal with legs.
I dont see uchi mata, harai goshi, or sasae ashi on that list, although Ive seen them all multiple times in the UFC. I wonder what category theyre lumping those under?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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One factor to consider is that MMA fighters dont wear the sort of clothing that can be used for handles in throwing. When your opponent wears a jacket or belt (as in Judo, Shuai Chiao, Mongolian wrestling, Cornish wrestling, Glima, etc) then upper body throws are more available.
This is true. It's hard to pull when you have gloves and also your opponent doesn't have wrestling jacket on. This is why I have tried to concentrate on

- single leg (one hand push on the shoulder and one hand grab the leg), and
- head lock (one arm wrap the arm and other arm lock the head).

Both don't depend on jacket. Also "face to face" throw is safer than "back touch chest" throw.
 

drop bear

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One factor to consider is that MMA fighters dont wear the sort of clothing that can be used for handles in throwing. When your opponent wears a jacket or belt (as in Judo, Shuai Chiao, Mongolian wrestling, Cornish wrestling, Glima, etc) then upper body throws are more available.

You can also clinch a lot easier.
 

Gerry Seymour

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You can also clinch a lot easier.
Agreed. Without a shirt (or in a rash guard), clinch is either at the neck (Thai clinch style) or some modified clinch using hooks. Add a garment that's grabbable - even a t-shirt - and clinches on top of, to the outside of, in front of, and even under the shoulder are possibilities.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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You can also clinch a lot easier.
This is true too. Without jacket, you can't use your stiff arms to hole your opponent back.

This is the main issue to evolve from jacket wrestling into no-jacket wrestling. Lot of old jacket training method will need to be evolved. After SC has been evolved into CSC (Combat SC), I no longer have any interest in the traditional jacket wrestling skill development.
 

wab25

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I dont see uchi mata, harai goshi, or sasae ashi on that list, although Ive seen them all multiple times in the UFC. I wonder what category theyre lumping those under?
This is not surprising, seeing that Mauro Ranallo calls every judo style throw that is not o'goshi, "hane goshi." ;)

I agree that these are not complete numbers. They list shoulder throws as 0 when I remember seeing a few of those as well. (some guy in Bellator was KOed with one... that was awesome!!!) That was the first break down I found, and was showing that wrestling style take downs, double and single leg, were pretty effective, even with all their disadvantages being discussed here.

Will jackets or gis change the numbers? Sure. That should raise the numbers for hip throws. But, I doubt it would change the numbers enough to show that double and single leg take downs were ineffective.
 

Tony Dismukes

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This is not surprising, seeing that Mauro Ranallo calls every judo style throw that is not o'goshi, "hane goshi." ;)

I agree that these are not complete numbers. They list shoulder throws as 0 when I remember seeing a few of those as well. (some guy in Bellator was KOed with one... that was awesome!!!) That was the first break down I found, and was showing that wrestling style take downs, double and single leg, were pretty effective, even with all their disadvantages being discussed here.

Will jackets or gis change the numbers? Sure. That should raise the numbers for hip throws. But, I doubt it would change the numbers enough to show that double and single leg take downs were ineffective.
I agree with the overall message - in a format where both strikes and leg grabs are allowed, single and double legs will be dominant takedown methods.

Another thought - the MMA cage floor isnt a super soft landing surface, but its a lot more forgiving than concrete or hardwood. If fights took place on a hard surface, then high amplitude throws (both Judo throws and big double leg slams) might often be fight enders. Would that change the percentages? Double legs can be used as big slams, but most arent. You need to totally capture an opponents body weight to pull those off. (It might also increase the motivation for fighters to stay up when throwing, since you can potentially hurt yourself when you go down with your opponent while throwing on a hard surface.)
 

wab25

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What's your opinion that "shoulder push single leg" is not commonly used in UFC?
It's not as high a percentage move as the double or single leg. Can it work? Sure. But it has its weaknesses too... some of them made into "bigger" weaknesses by the rules.

You are trying to control a leg with only one hand. The leg is stronger. Further, in UFC you are wearing shorts. Pants are easier to grab than sweaty legs. (same issue as not wearing a jacket for upper body)

These videos, do not show the same commitment. He never goes fully in, nor does he change levels. He stays in striking range, just outside of clinch range getting his technique by only committing one hand. The wrestling take downs involve a level change, and full commitment to the leg.

By using your right hand to push his right shoulder, you are open to left hooks, both to the body and the head. Your timing must be perfect. If you lose his leg (because the shorts make it harder to grab) you are open those left hooks.

In both examples, the guy doing the technique just walks in... nothing protecting his head. In both videos, while he is reaching for the leg, his head is exposed to the other guys arm. He can either tip your head back to prevent entry or push your head down... your head is in the open and unprotected.

I am not saying the moves you show are ineffective. I believe they are effective. I am saying that they have openings and vulnerabilities, the same as any technique does. The lack of pants to grab in MMA, will effect the use of this technique in the ring... as these techniques require you to control the other guys leg with one hand... a sweaty leg will be hard to keep. I also believe that the wrestling single and double leg take downs are higher percentage moves, due to the commitment they require. You get in deeper, change your level and use two arms (and your body) to control the leg you need to control.
 

Tony Dismukes

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What's your opinion that "shoulder push single leg" is not commonly used in UFC?

Get leading leg from outside.


Get leading leg from inside.

I think wab25 has it. I suspect the issue is that the versions you show in your video gives less control over the leg and more vulnerability to punches. They can work in MMA. In fact, I have the vague memory that I may have seen similar approaches used once or twice. I just think the success rate will be much lower.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Pants are easier to grab than sweaty legs. ...
In Chinese wrestling, the pants grabbing is illegal. There was one Chinese wrestling tournament that one girl grabbed on another girl's pants. The pants ripped apart and exposed the other girl's naked leg to the public. Since then the pants grabbing was seriously restricted.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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more vulnerability to punches.
Those clips don't show the proper entering strategy.

- Assume you and your opponent both have right side forward.
- You move your left back foot to line up with your opponent's both feet. This way his back hand can't reach you.
- You use your left hand to push on his leading right arm to his left (your right). If you have gloves on, you can use your left forearm to push on his right upper arm to his left (your right). It's just like a "left outside in block". This way his leading right arm can be used to jam his own back left arm.
- You guide his right leading arm under your right shoulder.
- You use right hand to push on his neck, use your left hand to get his right leading leg.
- You then keep moving forward until he is down.

Since your opponent's right arm is controlled under your right shoulder. Also since the angle that you move in, his back hand cannot reach you, You don't have to worry about his right punch, or his left punch.

Here is an example. By using this entering strategy, you will have less chance to be punched compare to the "level change single leg".

 
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