Is there a connection between WC and Southern Mantis?
- Thread starter Marnetmar
- Start date
ShortBridge
3rd Black Belt
They are all southern short bridge systems.
Between Crane and Wing Chun (and probably Southern Mantis, but I'm not sure) they were political allies, fighting the Mancunians, which means they likely would have cooperated with each other and potentially helped each other. It is easy to see commonality.
I have seen this video before, but just watched it again. Wow, easy to relate almost every single move in this to wing chun. There are sections of crane forms that directly parallel sections of wing chun forms.
They are all clearly related to me. Not the same, but related. That's why I named my club what I did.
Between Crane and Wing Chun (and probably Southern Mantis, but I'm not sure) they were political allies, fighting the Mancunians, which means they likely would have cooperated with each other and potentially helped each other. It is easy to see commonality.
I have seen this video before, but just watched it again. Wow, easy to relate almost every single move in this to wing chun. There are sections of crane forms that directly parallel sections of wing chun forms.
They are all clearly related to me. Not the same, but related. That's why I named my club what I did.
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I'm thinking more and more that Wing Chun, along with Southern Mantis, Bok Mei and any other of the Southern Fist, or short bridge systems originated from Hakka.
The Hakka, from what I understand, were a group of people who migrated down from the northern part of China some 2000 years ago and settled along the coast of Southern China.
Whereas by comparison, the other southern styles that some refer to as long bridge, such as Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut are descended from Shaolin for the most part.
Here is a link to an interesting article on the subject.
Wing Chun and the Hakka Arts Is there a connection Kung Fu Tea
The Hakka, from what I understand, were a group of people who migrated down from the northern part of China some 2000 years ago and settled along the coast of Southern China.
Whereas by comparison, the other southern styles that some refer to as long bridge, such as Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut are descended from Shaolin for the most part.
Here is a link to an interesting article on the subject.
Wing Chun and the Hakka Arts Is there a connection Kung Fu Tea
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ShortBridge
3rd Black Belt
Yes, I agree. It's an interesting thing for people to argue about, until you just start examining these other short bridge styles, then it's tough to even argue. No one who knows bil jee would argue that the form above and bil jee were created in vacuums, independently of one another.
Vajramusti
Master Black Belt
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Some things can look similar but are not the same.Ip Man wing chun has no causal link with Hakka based mantis. The chest structure, the stances, the breathing methods are different. But because many south china arts emphasize close quarters work some things can superficially look similar.I have done wing chunconsitently since 1976 and now deceased friend of mine was a protege of Gin foon Mak.
ShortBridge
3rd Black Belt
I completely agree that they are not the same.
They are all different arts, but they are also not uniquely distinct, as is often represented.
They are all different arts, but they are also not uniquely distinct, as is often represented.
Jesus Christ, it matches Biu Jee almost one to one. This is starting to scare me
Thanks for sharing!
ShortBridge
3rd Black Belt
As I understand it (and I may not), I believe the haaka were nomadic and their styles were compiled from things they picked up as they traveled around, so visible influences of other systems in their forms shouldn't be a surprise.
But, I can't cite a good source for that and I stand to be corrected if someone knows better.
But, I can't cite a good source for that and I stand to be corrected if someone knows better.
That's because it is Biu Tze. I came across this same clip a long time ago with some more English comments. I believe it's kind of a montage of southern systems including WC as well as Hakka stuff.
Actually, blending and borrowing has been going on forever. I'm not at all surprised that a lot of the other southern short-bridge systems share many similar traits. After all, these guys fought each other. Of course they picked up stuff. If you were into martial arts for functionality, You'd use what was functional. That idea didn't start with Bruce Lee!
Vajramusti
Master Black Belt
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good post-on target
ShortBridge
3rd Black Belt
Good points.
Another perspective I'd like to throw out is that they very likely also fought WITH each other. They were geographical and political allies. When you talk about Crane and Wing Chun (for example), they were Ming loyalist who were trying to overthrow the Qing. We think about different martial arts as being rivals and challenging each other, but these were also people in neighboring provinces and villages who were on the same side of a dispute and they would have collaborated and in theory, hidden somebody for x months, during which they trained together and so on.
This type of Chinese history appears to be more of the folk variety than the documented variety, so it's hard to say, but I think that if we step out of the context of competition and kung fu theater, there's a reasonable case to be made for some degree of cooperation, collaboration and collusion. Many traditional Chinese systems have an opening salute (gang sign, if you will) that identifies their political affiliation...for a reason.
And, I don't mean to imply that these are all the same system. They're not, but I think it's a myth to say that they were all uniquely developed by a monk who isolated themselves in the wilderness for a decade observing nature and inventing something completely new. One of the reasons those stories exist is that, unlike contemporary modern arts culture, you didn't want to advertise that you were the head of a system, because you didn't want the people you were fighting to come and burn your house down...better that they're looking for a folk character than doesn't actually exist.
..but I don't claim to be a true authority on this. It has been an interest and a research passion of mine for several years and I have some sources that I consider reasonably good, but just take it as a perspective. I don't mean to assert or imply any definitive knowledge of facts.
VT_Vectis
Orange Belt
Really? What did they have against people from Manchester? ;-)
ShortBridge
3rd Black Belt
I think it has something to do with Coronation Street...I'm not really sure. That's the problem with folk-history, I guess.
Kinda makes sense. Oh you really would not want to watch it!
