Is Taekwondo Closed-Minded?

[Buka]

In my experience, styles aren't closed-minded, some dojos or groups of dojos might be. But that isn't our loss.....well, you know the rest.

 

[TSDTexan]

I find Grandmaster Hwang Jang-Lee (9th dan ITF TKD, 9th Dan Tang Soo Do MDK) to have excellent reference form in the 1981 classic "art of high impact kicking" {re-released as a dvd in 2003} for both demonstrations, and fighting application. He goes up to 4th dan kicks.

Skip the cinematic intro by jumping to minute mark 2:38

I would love to see this reference work updated with background music and narration for our present 2015 era.

His kicks are very impressive, but his teaching ability is amazing.

He can take a 40 year old woman... and in 6 months, working at a pace of 4 hours a day, produce a student who can successfully test out and receive Kukkiwon O dan (오단): fifth-degree black belt certification, in the Taekwondo Kukkiwon in Seoul.

720 hours, that's how long it takes him to have a student fully prepared to test at HQ for 5th.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I find Grandmaster Hwang Jang-Lee (9th dan ITF TKD, 9th Dan Tang Soo Do MDK) to have excellent reference form in the 1981 classic "art of high impact kicking" {re-released as a dvd in 2003} for both demonstrations, and fighting application. He goes up to 4th dan kicks.

Skip the cinematic intro by jumping to minute mark 2:38

I would love to see this reference work updated with background music and narration for our present 2015 era.

His kicks are very impressive, but his teaching ability is amazing.

He can take a 40 year old woman... and in 6 months, working at a pace of 4 hours a day, produce a student who can successfully test out and receive Kukkiwon O dan (오단): fifth-degree black belt certification, in the Taekwondo Kukkiwon in Seoul.

720 hours, that's how long it takes him to have a student fully prepared to test at HQ for 5th.

I love the hair-cut. I haven't seen that vid in a while. It's kind of interesting, though there are some pretty awkward and impractical looking kick variations on it.

Regarding preparing a student for a fifth Dan Kukkiwon test, I'm pretty sure a lot of people could get someone ready if they had four hours a day for six months to prepare. The test is fairly simple and straightforward: basic techniques, two poomse, about one minute of sparring, and breaking. If I "taught" the test, I believe I could get someone to pass with 720 hours prep time. They'd have to pass the written exam, too, but it's also not that tough to prepare for (with a bit of Korean language ability).

 

[TSDTexan]

I love the hair-cut. I haven't seen that vid in a while. It's kind of interesting, though there are some pretty awkward and impractical looking kick variations on it.

Regarding preparing a student for a fifth Dan Kukkiwon test, I'm pretty sure a lot of people could get someone ready if they had four hours a day for six months to prepare. The test is fairly simple and straightforward: basic techniques, two poomse, about one minute of sparring, and breaking. If I "taught" the test, I believe I could get someone to pass with 720 hours prep time. They'd have to pass the written exam, too, but it's also not that tough to prepare for (with a bit of Korean language ability).

This was not just preparing someone to go from 4th to 5th Dan..... Not at all, I am talking about 10geups, and 5 Dan levels.

Now that should impress you.

Of course, this was all 1 on 1 instruction.

 

[Jaeimseu]

This was not just preparing someone to go from 4th to 5th Dan..... Not at all, I am talking about 10geups, and 5 Dan levels.

Now that should impress you.

Of course, this was all 1 on 1 instruction.

I was talking about taking someone off the street, not just one Dan level.

 

[JohnnyEnglish]

I thought I'd start a fun discussion. Do you see taekwondo instructors as being closed-minded, with only 1 "right" way of doing a technique?

I was watching the following video and thought that most tkd schools would say that his kick "without chambering" at 29 seconds is "WRONG", even though he is explicitly saying that it is faster (i.e., for speed).

My general viewpoint is that almost any technique can be done with different paths, with a trade-off between speed and power. So for instance I am aware of why my sparring school wants me to throw a spinning hook kick with very little arc - the school favors speed over power, due to the focus on WTF point tournaments.

My first introduction to the concept of there being more than one "right" way was as a white belt. Everyone had a fighting stance as instructed with one hand high and one hand low. But a chinese student who had previously studied Chinese Martial Arts kept both hands high.

I asked him why he didn't use the schools stance and his answer was, "In Canada, people only want to punch you in the head. So I block my head." I thought about that, and asked, "You said in Canada. What about in Hong Kong?". He explained, "Oh, in Honk Kong, they'll kick you in the balls, so I'd definitely keep a hand low there."

What are your thoughts - do tkd schools teach too often that there is only 1 "right" way, without talking about trade-offs?

I think when it comes to stanced and cover, it should always depend from the actual situation.

I mean, when you face a boxer, sure, cover up your head, when you face some random street-thug attacking you,also cover your head, since most people are always trying to go for your head, if you face a karateka who is trying to kick you over and over again, have your cover a bit lowered to protect your rips,solarplexus.

A cover has to be flexible,moving, not always clued to the same spot.

" Be the water ".

I come from Kickboxing, and when I joined a Karate class, it was totally weird and unatural to me to always have the cover lowered, after I kicked a couple of my opponents in to the head, they also noticed that the random guy from kickboxing actual has a clue and knows how to cover himself, so these black-belts copied my style.

What I am trying to say is, do what is appropiate. If your instructor is telling you to have the cover low when facing somebody who is going for your head, I would leave this school because it would be total garbage.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I find Grandmaster Hwang Jang-Lee (9th dan ITF TKD, 9th Dan Tang Soo Do MDK) to have excellent reference form in the 1981 classic "art of high impact kicking" {re-released as a dvd in 2003} for both demonstrations, and fighting application. He goes up to 4th dan kicks.

I'd be very interested in knowing when/by who he got promoted to 9th dan ITF. He's not listed on any of the three main ITF groups websites and they are all very sparing when it comes to awarding 9th dan. Gen. Choi didn't promote anyone to 9th dan until 1997 (GM Rhee, Ki Ha was the first ITF 9th dan after Gen. Choi himself) and the video is listed as being from 1981.

Pax,

Chris

 

[JowGaWolf]

Taekwondo is not closed minded. It's just that the training is for a different purpose. Most Taekwondo schools today teach for sporting purposes so it's not the same style of old. Unfortunately in the US. there are too many bad Taekwondo schools that give the impression that people can use it to defend themselves, even though the instructor was never teaching it for self-defense.

 

[TSDTexan]

I'd be very interested in knowing when/by who he got promoted to 9th dan ITF. He's not listed on any of the three main ITF groups websites and they are all very sparing when it comes to awarding 9th dan. Gen. Choi didn't promote anyone to 9th dan until 1997 (GM Rhee, Ki Ha was the first ITF 9th dan after Gen. Choi himself) and the video is listed as being from 1981.

Pax,

Chris

He achieved his 7th dan black belt, In 1965 at age 21.
In 1965 Hwang was drafted into the army, after weeks of basic training, he was sent to teach Tae Kwan Do to over 1,000 military students.

Already a 7th dan black-belt by this time, Hwang quickly caught the eye of his high ranking officers.
Which led to him being sent to Vietnam to train American, and Vietnamese soldiers.

One day Hwang was challenged to a fight whilst teaching by a south Vietnamese knife fighter. The fight lasted around 30 seconds with a kick landing to the head which knocked his challenger out, and subsequently killed him.

The knife expert challenged Lee to a fight, with Lee repeatedly refusing.

In an act of self-defense, Lee ended the duel with one roundhouse kick to the assailant’s head; the villain was dead about 20 seconds later. Lee was actually accused of murder, but due to eyewitness reports was eventually cleared.

In January 2003, Hwang received his 9th dan black belt in Taekwondo.


As for being spareing , I agree, Chuck Norris, the first Westerner to get 8th Dan back, is still 8th. And he got 8th in the 1960s.

 

[TSDTexan]

[/QUOTE]As for being spareing , I agree, Chuck Norris, the first Westerner to get 8th Dan back, is still 8th. And he got 8th in the 1960s.[/QUOTE]

This was an error, Chuck got his 8th in 1990.

Russian leader Vladimir Putin, on a visit to South Korea, was honored with a ninth-degree black belt from the president of the World Taekwondo Federation — ranking him a notch higher than Norris.

Putin, a martial-arts enthusiast, was humbled by the honor.

“I’m not sure if I deserve this,” said Putin, a former KGB agent, after receiving the honor. “Let’s call it our campaign to popularize this wonderful martial art. Russia will do its best to contribute to its popularity at home.”

The step from 8th to 9th is more political than anything else.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well, no, Putin was given a meaningless honorary rank. It's pretty silly, I think, to compare honorary rank to earned rank. Especially when it's from a group (the WTF) that doesn't actually issue any REAL rank.

 

[Jaeimseu]

He achieved his 7th dan black belt, In 1965 at age 21.
In 1965 Hwang was drafted into the army, after weeks of basic training, he was sent to teach Tae Kwan Do to over 1,000 military students.

Already a 7th dan black-belt by this time, Hwang quickly caught the eye of his high ranking officers.
Which led to him being sent to Vietnam to train American, and Vietnamese soldiers.

One day Hwang was challenged to a fight whilst teaching by a south Vietnamese knife fighter. The fight lasted around 30 seconds with a kick landing to the head which knocked his challenger out, and subsequently killed him.

The knife expert challenged Lee to a fight, with Lee repeatedly refusing.

In an act of self-defense, Lee ended the duel with one roundhouse kick to the assailant’s head; the villain was dead about 20 seconds later. Lee was actually accused of murder, but due to eyewitness reports was eventually cleared.

What is your source for this story?

 

[TSDTexan]

What is your source for this story?

Hwang Hang Lee, in a few interviews.
His detainment is a matter of record with the government.

You can do a FOIR request if you want with the US Government.
His testimony is good enough for me.

 

[TSDTexan]

I was talking about taking someone off the street, not just one Dan level.

Then you are a superior instructor and my hats off to you.
My problem is finding students willing to train non stop for four hours every day. And a editing of teaching methods/lesson plans to handle a four hour format.

My question is how do you get enough body conditioning in that 720 hours over Six months.

Another challenge would be the waiver of time in rank. Some folks would have an issue with a student becoming a 6month 5th Dan in TKD because of traditions based bias.

I was talking about taking someone off the street, not just one Dan level.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Then you are a superior instructor and my hats off to you.
My problem is finding students willing to train non stop for four hours every day. And a editing of teaching methods/lesson plans to handle a four hour format.

My question is how do you get enough body conditioning in that 720 hours over Six months.

Another challenge would be the waiver of time in rank. Some folks would have an issue with a student becoming a 6month 5th Dan in TKD because of traditions based bias.

It would take a student with plenty of free-time and motivation, but I think it would be quite possible to train specifically for the test in that time frame and not look totally out of place. As I said before, the test is not all that difficult.

If that story is factual, it probably cost someone a lot of money and/or favors to bypass the time in rank (or it was a long time ago and there was a demand for an instructor somewhere). Personally, I wouldn't tell anyone if I trained someone to be an instructor in six months. I wouldn't want to be the student of an instructor with six months experience.

I find it more likely that the story has been exaggerated.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think it's entirely possible to train a person with a fair bit of innate ability to pass the physical test in this time period.
I do not think they will have any real understanding, though. It'll just be a series of movements.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Hwang Hang Lee, in a few interviews.
His detainment is a matter of record with the government.

You can do a FOIR request if you want with the US Government.
His testimony is good enough for me.

I expect this story, too, has been embellished over time. If he instantly killed someone with a round kick to the head, it was a fluke. I'd find it more believable if his opponent fell down and died due to hitting his head on the ground. Or maybe he knocked a guy out and over the years the story changed. The problem with stories like that is that it's difficult to confirm one way or the other.

It's a great story, but I remain skeptical.

 

[Earl Weiss]

In January 2003, Hwang received his 9th dan black belt in Taekwondo.

.

Mr. Spiller inquired as to what ITF org. promoted him?

FYI General Choi issued "Special 9th Dan Promotions" To Bob Wall, Chuck Norris and one other.

 

[TSDTexan]

Well, no, Putin was given a meaningless honorary rank. It's pretty silly, I think, to compare honorary rank to earned rank. Especially when it's from a group (the WTF) that doesn't actually issue any REAL rank.

Real rank. While it is true that ranks do exist, ever since Dr Jigoro Kano, I view them as stepping stones on the journey.

It is also true that honerary rank is not earned rank.

However, I do not think it is silly to compare an unearned 9th to an earned 8th.

The reason I say that is the 5 Kwan founders, as well as the 4 recognized annex Kwan founders were pretty much reciprocal in calling each other Grandmaster/Founder.
None of these founders earned 9th degrees in their own arts.

But today we do it different...

Take for example Dear Chuck. He is a 9th in TSD, and after working and getting Dan ranks in a few other styles, he creates Chun Kuk Do. He is automatically a tenth.

He knows all the curriculum for his art, but he doesn't have to earn his belts in the art, level by level within that art.

If anything, he is just like a transfer student, who's credits are recognized as valid, in that new artform.

This however wasn't the case of the founders.
None of them were earned eighth or nineth Dans.

They mutually bestowed and recognized each other as such, because of their large student bodies, and for political reasons.

This little historical fact, is swept under the rug... Bad form to bring it up... Lost Face and all.

Therortically, In order to issue a promotion one should be of a higher rank or at least wind up being equal to the recipient.

Unless the determination is by democratic process of Yudansha from many arts. Like a kukkiwon.

Except there was no kukkiwon to bestow recognition of Sokeship upon the 5/9 Kwan founders. So, the cart is before the horse.

The irony of it as a TSD guy, is that the MDK has set their time in rank requirements for 9th dan in Subahkdo so high (57 years consecutive), that it would have been impossible for Hwang Kee to be recognized today by that standard. Even if He were a 9th in his other styles that He used for the founding of his art.

Which brings me back to my statement, "However, I do not think it is silly to compare an unearned 9th to an earned 8th"

World Taekwondo Headquarters

The 9th requirement are forms, time in previous rank, age, and a thesis paper.
So the real difference between an earned 8th and earned 9th is political. You could have a pair of twins make it to 8th together, age to the point where they meet the Age requirements, both master their forms, write excellent papers..
One passes, and because of a no vote, the other doesn't.

 

[TSDTexan]

Mr. Spiller inquired as to what ITF org. promoted him?

FYI General Choi issued "Special 9th Dan Promotions" To Bob Wall, Chuck Norris and one other.

What date did the promotion happen?
I am waiting for an email back from SBN Norris to confirm.

News to me, and most web references have not been updated to reflect this.

I only know the date, I have someone looking into which ORG certified the 9th on Hwang Jang Lee.

My gut feeling says he was certified by the Tae Kwon Do - Moo Duk Kwan under the General Federation instead of the Kukkiwon.