Is snake compatible with Wing Chun?

Yoshiyahu

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I was woundering if Shaolin Snake style would be a good crossfit to Wing Chun?

I don't mean the Wushu snake with alot flips and flying in the air. But the traditional Wudang or Shaolin Snake? I mean snake fighters have some pretty strong kung.


Ninebird8 said:
One of my two seniors in my Wudan Shaolin school, is a Bok Lum Snake style and is incredible. He can take a watermelon, and with a snake hand, go right through a watermelon and explode it.


Qoute here: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71666

Pressure Points: http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/accu.asp


If you could do this with your thrusting fingers what would happen if you struck someone in Abadomen,kidneys,bladder(behind the back), pelvic bone,groin, dan tien or pressure points on the chest with this strike?

Also striking the points on the body,neck and face with this force. Wouldn't this be useful against a person trying to mug you with a gun or knife? When your unarmed and afraid to run due to being stabbed or shot in the back?



karate_vital_points.jpg




pressurepoints.gif


chest_vital_points.gif
Center Line striking points!

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71666
 

profesormental

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Greetings.

I will not comment much on my thoughts on this.

They are summarized in the following:

There are better training methods that yield higher success rate skills than finger conditioning.

Snake style is supposed to be about manipulation and control as to be able to hit the points (tien sueh or dim mak) better.

Except if you want to tickle them, hitting them with fingers on the body will most probably hurt your hand. If you can reach them, why not just strike and/or control the attacker?

I'm not much for stylized fighting methods, just for the benefits of the training, since most actually fight with San Da methods anyway...

Enjoy.

Juan M. Mercado
 
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Yoshiyahu

Yoshiyahu

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You said if you strike their body with your fingers you would hurt your hand?


Is there a way you could build up strength in your fingers and hands so you can endure striking the body with your fingers with out sustaining injury?

Like bruce lee would thrust his fingers in gravel, Do push ups on his fingers and strike targets with his fingers?

Is this something possible...Or has modern 2009 wing chun schools forgot about these training methods?


Greetings.

I will not comment much on my thoughts on this.

They are summarized in the following:

There are better training methods that yield higher success rate skills than finger conditioning.

Snake style is supposed to be about manipulation and control as to be able to hit the points (tien sueh or dim mak) better.

Except if you want to tickle them, hitting them with fingers on the body will most probably hurt your hand. If you can reach them, why not just strike and/or control the attacker?

I'm not much for stylized fighting methods, just for the benefits of the training, since most actually fight with San Da methods anyway...

Enjoy.

Juan M. Mercado
 

profesormental

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Nope, I haven't forgotten.

Yet when the gain is not worth the risk, I don't do it. I teach people that play music (including me), and hand/finger conditioning for those purposes has a high risk of injury vs. the benefits it brings.

Iron Fist is much safer and takes a much less toll on the fingers.

The joints can be seen as shock absorbers, and the fist has relatively big bones and less flexible joints than the fingers.

A LOT of energy is dissipated in the joints, and the fingers have a lot of them.

Conditioning them with finger pushups and lightly hitting targets is more than enough for most martial purposes. Remember that many old styles of conditioning didn't take into account that the warrior would see past 40 years of age.

Thus I don't think it is worth it, except if you want to do demonstrations, yet I find ripping phonebooks in 2 a good enough demo!

So just punch 'em or grab 'em. You'll deliver much more energy and momentum, have lower risk, an enjoy the effect more. Many aspects of Chin Na are grabs, not finger pokes. Enjoy it!

Hope that helps.

Juan M. Mercado
 
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Yoshiyahu

Yoshiyahu

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What about that one guy in his nineties who could do hand stands on two fingers? What long term damage did he sustain?


Nope, I haven't forgotten.

Yet when the gain is not worth the risk, I don't do it. I teach people that play music (including me), and hand/finger conditioning for those purposes has a high risk of injury vs. the benefits it brings.

Iron Fist is much safer and takes a much less toll on the fingers.

The joints can be seen as shock absorbers, and the fist has relatively big bones and less flexible joints than the fingers.

A LOT of energy is dissipated in the joints, and the fingers have a lot of them.

Conditioning them with finger pushups and lightly hitting targets is more than enough for most martial purposes. Remember that many old styles of conditioning didn't take into account that the warrior would see past 40 years of age.

Thus I don't think it is worth it, except if you want to do demonstrations, yet I find ripping phonebooks in 2 a good enough demo!

So just punch 'em or grab 'em. You'll deliver much more energy and momentum, have lower risk, an enjoy the effect more. Many aspects of Chin Na are grabs, not finger pokes. Enjoy it!

Hope that helps.

Juan M. Mercado
 

Xue Sheng

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What about that one guy in his nineties who could do hand stands on two fingers? What long term damage did he sustain?

He has probably trained properly for 80 years and started training with highly skilled teachers whne he was very young

You don't just jump into styles like this and start striking things with your fingers.... if you do...you WILL hurt your fingers severely
 
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Yoshiyahu

Yoshiyahu

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Very true...I love that response...Training properly for many years...thats right. Also you have guys in thier twenties who can spear hand fruits.

He has probably trained properly for 80 years and started training with highly skilled teachers whne he was very young

You don't just jump into styles like this and start striking things with your fingers.... if you do...you WILL hurt your fingers severely
 

profesormental

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Yeah... monk Hai Tank I believe...

Did you see his fingers? Not very straight.

If your strategy includes tactics with striking fingers, of course conditioning is essential.

I adopted strategies and tactics that do not include finger strikes as major moves. My teachers have shied away from finger conditioning for the reasons I've proposed and several others.

Fingers and hands biomechanically have preferences in the way they carry loads. I have decided to spend my time more on making these anatomically and physically determined movements even stronger that make my martial applications irresistible...

than use my time in making a lower percentage strategy and tactic just half as good. And on top of that, if your destructive sequence is off, you will hit the guy with fruit crushing power and NOTHING will happen except turn or higher adrenaline in the attacker. (i.e. if the shield are up, the attacker can take quite a punch and kick... fingers, no problem!).

Also, jabbing someone in the eyes requires NO conditioning to be debilitating. That is another story.

I've decided to let the physical sciences and logic determine in what methods I choose to train in my limited time for maximal grains in martial skill.

Thus I have reached the conclusions I have expressed before. I have no objection to the slaughter of fruits via finger mashing if you have a very effective strategy that uses it as an important tactic.

Also, if you're into demonstrations if Iron body, then by all means, go for it! There are many demos I would like to have the time to train for!

I also think that my argument for not training finger conditioning is valid, since I prioritize my training time to specific goals and objectives for me and my students...

Optimization of movements thought the physical and mental sciences for maximal Kinesiological Output for Martial Applications (combat and sport) and lifelong extended and expanded Health and Well Being.

Or something like that.

Hope that helps.

Juan M. Mercado
Wing Chun Kuen Fat Si Fu
Guadian Lions Martial Training School

P.S. The fruit smashing finger style comments are all in good fun! No offense meant, just lightning the mood. ;)
 

Eru Il繙vatar

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I just love your posts Profesor. I can tell you're a very experienced martial artis. May I ask how long have you been studying martial arts/WC?
 

arnisador

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Also, jabbing someone in the eyes requires NO conditioning to be debilitating.

That's true if it lands. But what if he (partially) blocks the strike? The conditioning is for when errors happen. If that finger snags in a sleeve it can get broken.

That having been said, I largely agree spending a lot of time conditioning the fingers isn't time well spent and could be counterproductive.
 

profesormental

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Greetings.

arnisador said:
That's true if it lands. But what if he (partially) blocks the strike? The conditioning is for when errors happen. If that finger snags in a sleeve it can get broken.

If fingers snag, isn't that something that is trained in "fighting for grip" exercises in Judo and Jiu Jitsu? Fingers can be trained to a very functional level without going for high level Iron Finger or 1 or 2 finger zen levels.

The comment of "that is another story" is exactly your point: how to make finger strikes land.

And I reached Instructor level in about 1995.

Hope that helps.

Juan M. Mercado
 

geezer

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That's true if it lands. But what if he (partially) blocks the strike? ...

You don't need to spend years toughening your fingers. You can do a lot of damage to your opponent with a relaxed "whipping" finger strike to a sensitive target such as the eyes or throat. If you keep your fingers soft and relaxed and your opponent blocks or ducks so your intended eye strike hits something hard, like his forehead, you won't break your fingers. That's the WT approach.

Oh, and if you really want to hit somebody with something hard, Arnisador, well we both know the answer to that. That's why God made sticks!!!
 

arnisador

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That's right! Kamagong hardwood, anyone?

I fully agree with the finger slick--safer in most cases! All I need is a distraction.
 
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Yoshiyahu

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Well training an iron fingers gives you an added advantage.

I think about life and death situtations.

I am not some big buff hulk hogan guy. So I think its very practical to have some sorta of lethal or deadly technique training. Be it iron palm,piercing toe kick or iron fingers or tiger claw.

The Reason being is because when you out with your family or friends you may not always have a stick to grab if someone attacks you.

Here in my City there was a recent barge of attacks my police officer friends told me about that has been happening at Air Port. One family was severly beaten. The father and his wife were badly beaten along with their young daughters under the age of eleven.

Had this guy had some deadly techniques he could have easily harm them regardless of what weapons they carried. They had weapons he did not. He had his family. in that situtation I would normally use a gun if I had one..If I didn't I may use my metal fountain pen or vice grips I carry around with me. An poke the throats of my enemies. my police officer friend who train WC with said that if he was off duty an some thugs tried to jump him he would start letting off rounds.

I don't live in a fairy tale world where you beat the guy badly an its all honky dory. Wrestling and doing some great judo moves will not save your **** where I come from. You need to break limbs, Break necks and try to puncture vital points.

So some see cross training another art as valubale time spent.

Well why not take that time to refine your stars and make them into deadly weapons so if you ever find yourself unarmed you can do damage. What do I do if I drop my pen, it falls out of my pocket, or I loose it down the shirt of one of foes as I stab in the neck with it?

What do I do then? I have no weapon now. Sure I can chain punch them. But do I chain punch six to eigth guys?

Normally after one guy falls with blood squirting out of his neck the other ten to twenty guys will loose all lust for blood. Alot of time weapon or no weapon they reaction would be to break and run then. When they see their comrads falling an not getting up. They usually re-think their actions. Then when they run...No need to take chase walk away in the other direction. But if your surrounded on all sides you need to get out the middle fast. The best way to me to make a hole is take those vice grips an thrust the sternum,throat and groin. Even the fore head makes a fabulous point of attack. AS for the eyes I usually strike the sides of the eyes or underneth the eyes...There are pressure points below the eye ball you strike on face. So if your fingers or vice grips missed or slide upward they hit the eyes. An when it comes time to court..I call my family on the force. An my friends on force....

Usually what ever the case is the case will settle as they were the aggressors and me being a smaller slim guy was the victim. The only thing I hate when is when they send you notices easing your pain for being a victim. Its really funny to me. I mean realistically. How much time do you need to train your fingers. Why not simple practice 30 push ups a day on your fingers. after awhile it takes two minutes to just fifty. An practice thrusting your fingers in bucket filled with rice for ten minutes a day every day. Realistically you can take a ten minute break to do that. That could be time spent doing some horse stance meditation while striking the rice or steel shots or beans. Its not a total waste of time. At most you spend about fifthteen minutes a day. Thats one fourth of an hour. Whats fifthteen minutes. If you watch the News I gurantee you see atleast fifteen minutes of commericals with in the first thrity of minutes of the news. So why not take that time. Or put on some music an do it...is it a waste of time...It doesn't really take time. An as years progress your strikes will get stronger. Maybe one day your fingers will be strong enough to not break when you strike someone in the skull...What happens is they are hurt. An even if your not doing eye strikes. Its great for kidney and throat strikes.


Why is cool to cross train so many different styles but the original training of WC is not cool????


After all WC is known for being a combination of snake and crane. What good is bil gee if you don't have conditioning to your fingers strikes. That means part of your WC is lacking!

If you do palm strikes you should have iron palms. if you do tiger claw strikes you should have tiger claws conditioning. If you do preying mantis you should develop your mantis hooks. If you do crane you should be able to strike with a crane beak at any part of the body with out breaking your hand. If you do five animals all five animals fist should be developed not just your fist.


Come on people why is WC so one sided?

If its crane and snake shouldn't we have those attributes? Doesn't snake strikes exist in WC?
 

profesormental

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Yoshiyahu said:
If its crane and snake shouldn't we have those attributes? Doesn't snake strikes exist in WC?

Yes... they are the whipping/flicking finger strikes.

The situations that you pose, while extreme, need to be solved with good strategy and scenario/simulation training so that you can improve your survival probabilities with more appropriate responses.

Armed confrontations with family present are not clear cut, and no matter how skilled an individual is, strategic disadvantage can nullify that skill. Getting caught unprepared in such situations is very sad and makes a person feel powerless.

I'm sorry, but fighting back in that situation could've meant the lives of the family just in retaliation for fighting. If they are alive, the guy did the right thing.

So those 10 to 20 minutes I would spend on simulations and Practice Combat Scenarios are worth more to me than the same time conditioning fingers.

I palm the head, punch the body, kick the legs. Deadly force is normally not necessary nor legally viable. Specially if you've trained high level martial arts.

Wing Chun has a deep root in Chinese philosophy, since it is a "Quan Fa", not a "Gar" (family style) nor "Wu Shu" "martial technique" nor a "Do" (way).

It is for preserving life through higher skills, so that you have the choice to control the situation and have power over life and death.

Lower skills mean that your only choice is to be as lethal as possible.

I want my students to have a choice.

Recently, one of my students went to help a guy that was being ganged upon by 5 or 6 guys. He's 125 lbs. soaking wet. He had spinal sugery a year and a half ago. He didn't do permanent damage, opened space for the other guy to leave. Then got in a car and escaped. Strategy and tactics.

He palmed their faces, pushed them and opened space, even though they weighted much more than him, demonstrating good stances and rooting. They fell down or jumped back, not wanting more.

bil jeeing thier eyes would've been criminal and he would be in jail right now. Or at least paying the medical expenses of new eyes.

I have many stories like that.

Again, if you train the fingers like that, I'm quite ok with it. I won't train them like that again for the foeseeable future with more than a few finger pushups, as I've already mentioned.

Hope this clarifies my position.

Juan M. Mercado
Wing Chun Kuen Fat
Si Fu since 1995
Got some sticks made with the treated hardwood they use on sledehammers... nice! I would like to try them Kamagong hardwoods too!

P.S. many places have tough neighborhoods. Here in Puerto Rico, many are like that, and if you're not careful, pretty bad. Also, many placecs are very violent and can't be avoided. So I know where you're coming from...

But most of them people, if you beat them up, they will lawyer themselves and they have all the time in the world to come after your money.

A friend of mine got punched, and they exchanged punches for a parking space or something. The other guy was bigger and started it. He got dragged into court and LOST even though he got beaten on unjustifyably. He had to pay a fine.

Strategy and tactics.
 
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Yoshiyahu

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As for lawyer up. The thugs I speak of will do all the can to settle out of court. In fact this one guy who I fought went with me to court house to settle case an have it thrown out before the court day. He didnt want to appear in court due to priors. He also knew it would look bad for him since my cousin is a cop at that very station. Besides he has a bad reputation around town.


As for most of thugs. When you defeat them...they don't show up to court. They drop charges or just don't show up. If i make my living robbing people at the metro link why would go to court. For one many of these people don't have $1000 retainer fee its takes to hold a lawyer.
So thats not an option where i come from. Now some european suburban thug. Maybe I can see that. But I always been taught fighting is not a game. Your best bet is to hurt them bad before they hurt you. There is no such thing as fair fighting. Do what ever works.


The purpose of training your fingers is not just for attacking eyes. Personally I am trying to hit your heart,kidneys,bladder,diaphram or dan tien with the fingers. Thats what I practice. The Century BOB is great for practicing pressure point striking...you can put dot stickers on the century bob an drill hitting the circles on him over and over again until you become fluent.

But do you believe That finger striking was an original part of old style Wing Chun. When it was use as a street fighting art in Northern China.





Yes... they are the whipping/flicking finger strikes.

The situations that you pose, while extreme, need to be solved with good strategy and scenario/simulation training so that you can improve your survival probabilities with more appropriate responses.

Armed confrontations with family present are not clear cut, and no matter how skilled an individual is, strategic disadvantage can nullify that skill. Getting caught unprepared in such situations is very sad and makes a person feel powerless.

I'm sorry, but fighting back in that situation could've meant the lives of the family just in retaliation for fighting. If they are alive, the guy did the right thing.

So those 10 to 20 minutes I would spend on simulations and Practice Combat Scenarios are worth more to me than the same time conditioning fingers.

I palm the head, punch the body, kick the legs. Deadly force is normally not necessary nor legally viable. Specially if you've trained high level martial arts.

Wing Chun has a deep root in Chinese philosophy, since it is a "Quan Fa", not a "Gar" (family style) nor "Wu Shu" "martial technique" nor a "Do" (way).

It is for preserving life through higher skills, so that you have the choice to control the situation and have power over life and death.

Lower skills mean that your only choice is to be as lethal as possible.

I want my students to have a choice.

Recently, one of my students went to help a guy that was being ganged upon by 5 or 6 guys. He's 125 lbs. soaking wet. He had spinal sugery a year and a half ago. He didn't do permanent damage, opened space for the other guy to leave. Then got in a car and escaped. Strategy and tactics.

He palmed their faces, pushed them and opened space, even though they weighted much more than him, demonstrating good stances and rooting. They fell down or jumped back, not wanting more.

bil jeeing thier eyes would've been criminal and he would be in jail right now. Or at least paying the medical expenses of new eyes.

I have many stories like that.

Again, if you train the fingers like that, I'm quite ok with it. I won't train them like that again for the foeseeable future with more than a few finger pushups, as I've already mentioned.

Hope this clarifies my position.

Juan M. Mercado
Wing Chun Kuen Fat
Si Fu since 1995
Got some sticks made with the treated hardwood they use on sledehammers... nice! I would like to try them Kamagong hardwoods too!

P.S. many places have tough neighborhoods. Here in Puerto Rico, many are like that, and if you're not careful, pretty bad. Also, many placecs are very violent and can't be avoided. So I know where you're coming from...

But most of them people, if you beat them up, they will lawyer themselves and they have all the time in the world to come after your money.

A friend of mine got punched, and they exchanged punches for a parking space or something. The other guy was bigger and started it. He got dragged into court and LOST even though he got beaten on unjustifyably. He had to pay a fine.

Strategy and tactics.
 

profesormental

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My intuition is that it was a minor part. When you can drill though people with punches and push them away with po pai, and hitting tien sueh with phoenix eye fist, fingers used like that are not the best option.

I would have to research for a more educated opinion, yet biomechanics is biomechanics.
 
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Yoshiyahu

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Interesting....What about the Snake System...


Do you think training the entire snake system would be a crossfit for WC?


I mean the two arts combined could give you added techniques that can be used to confuse your opponent or off balance his strategy..

What do you think about learning Snake Fist Kung Fu after ones has foundation in Wing Chun?


My intuition is that it was a minor part. When you can drill though people with punches and push them away with po pai, and hitting tien sueh with phoenix eye fist, fingers used like that are not the best option.

I would have to research for a more educated opinion, yet biomechanics is biomechanics.
 

profesormental

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Just Wing Chun is enough to off balance any attacker's strategy... they don't know Wing Chun!

Snake style, as I studied it, has nice footwork, explosive and pushing in, good Chi Na and springy forms. For fighting, they trained San Da.

I believe it would not necessarily be a good time investment, except if the intructor has a lot of knowledge in Chin Na and Shuai Jiao aspects. And they are not that many.
 
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