is lineage really that important in MA?

[suicide]

does it matter who you learned from ? and where they learned from ? cause ive seen that alot of people take pride in saying im direct lineage from a shoalin monk per say or ed parker or bruce lee etc etc what if you just learned from john doe and he learned from john doe sr ? seems in some cases that a guy that does come from and knows his lineage might frown upon the guy that doesnt ?

 

[Xinglu]

I'd say that is dependent upon what the person is claiming to teach!

For example, if they guy (or gal) is claiming to teach EPAK, but never trained under anyone from EPAK then it is safe to assume that what you are going to get is probably not an accurate reflection of EPAK.

Now if that same person claimed to be teaching a new form of Kenpo then lineage matters little so long as the information is good.

Personally, I like to know who taught my instructors, not because I want to prove anything, but because it helps me add depth in what I've learned. Just like I didn't need to know who my grandparents were to be raised well by my parents, but in knowing them I learned some really cool stuff and learned a lot about where my parents were coming from. All in all it helps one gain some perspective.

 

[Hawke]

Lineage is like a brand name.

If you studied with well known martial artists (i.e. Dan Inosanto, "Uncle Bill" de Thouars, Paul Mills, Chuck Norris, Francis Fong, etc) then people in that style might have an idea of your martial art training background.

Others may use their lineage for marketing to draw in more students. They may also use their lineage to promote tradition.

As for me I never had the privilege to cross hands with Morihei Ueshiba, Bruce Lee, Ed Parker, Remy Presas, and other greats. When I cross hands with one of their descendants from the line of a great teacher I am crossing hands with that student and not their teacher.

I like to know where my instructors learned their art and the changes they made along the way.

 

[dancingalone]

Lineage is very important if you want to learn a specific, sometimes esoteric art. If you don't care about the fine points of a system, and you just want to learn some useful self-defense skills, I daresay another good instructor will do.

 

[nelsonkari]

No, not really. What you can do with what you got is all that matters.

 

[Twin Fist]

every possible answer to this question is right, and also wrong

it matters or doesnt

to me, it does if i am learning a style

if i am learning concepts, it doesnt

 

[MA-Caver]

With so many McDojos out there and every one of them claiming to be this or that art... having direct linage and proof of that linage shows that you're paying for the real deal. It's proof that you're getting what you pay for. Heck with my present knowledge of SD/MA I can open up a school and teach stuff, but my own integrity won't allow it and so I won't do it. Other people aren't so inclined to let their integrity get in the way of making a few bucks from folks that don't honestly know better.

So having proof that I learned from a man who learned from a man who learned from a person who learned from the actual founder of the art (separated by however many generations) tells me that at least I'm getting what I paid for... real Aikido or EPAK or whatever art I choose to learn.

Case in point. Two people I know desiring to learn MA. One of them been a long time student of EPAK with direct lineage to GM Mr. Parker, so she got the teaching she wanted.
Next person I know said he and his wife signed up at a "Karate" school... when I asked him what kind of Karate (Shotokan, EPAK, etc) ? he gave me a blank look and said... "it's Karate"... red flag raised up everywhere on that... I warned him to be careful and sure enough about a month later the instructor skipped town.

So having lineage is important IMO.

But that's just me and what I've learned over the last few years here on MT :asian:

 

[Sukerkin]

The importance of lineage does vary somewhat from art to art and place to place but the one area where it is paramount is in the koryu arts.

If you don't have proven lineage there then you're not learning koryu, no "if's, buts or maybes". The style taught could be perfect but without authenticity you're not learning the Art.

 

[Ken Morgan]

The importance of lineage does vary somewhat from art to art and place to place but the one area where it is paramount is in the koryu arts.

If you don't have proven lineage there then you're not learning koryu, no "if's, buts or maybes". The style taught could be perfect but without authenticity you're not learning the Art.

Oh we could have so much fun with this one Sukerkin...but I won't wave the red cape in front of the bull....

 

[jonbey]

If you want to learn a particular style then lineage is important to an extent. But ultimately you need a good teacher. Good teachers are not always the best fighters or the most experienced martial artists. And, the best fighters and experienced martial artists can make terrible teachers.

 

[MJS]

does it matter who you learned from ? and where they learned from ? cause ive seen that alot of people take pride in saying im direct lineage from a shoalin monk per say or ed parker or bruce lee etc etc what if you just learned from john doe and he learned from john doe sr ? seems in some cases that a guy that does come from and knows his lineage might frown upon the guy that doesnt ?

Let me ask this. Do you like throwing away your money and wasting your time? If you answer yes, then don't worry about who you train with. If you answer no, then yes, I'd make damn sure I knew who I was training under, if they were legit, etc.

I always say that when you're heading out to train, do your homework. Ask questions, both of the teacher, students, others, etc. I mean really...do you want to train under some clown who spent 3 months learning via dvd in his basement, buys a BB, slaps on 6 stripes and runs out calling himself a master?

 

[Xinglu]

I mean really...do you want to train under some clown who spent 3 months learning via dvd in his basement, buys a BB, slaps on 6 stripes and runs out calling himself a master?

I think this is all together different then what the OP is asking. Self promotion and lineage don't imply each other. I've seen plenty of self promoted AK people with schools out here who DID train under Parker, or trained under someone who did. Earned legit BB but somehow reached 8th in 5 years....

They have the lineage but not the rank or IMHO affiliation with a legit organization.

This happens all over the arts, people with good lineage, but exaggerated rank.

The question here is lineage and weather or not it matters when considering the effectiveness of a MA.

 

[stickarts]

In my view, knowing a lineage tells you something about the sources that someone learned from. This is not everything, and it is also not nothing.
If someone learned from a quality source, this is a good sign, however, it doesn't necessarily mean that the quality of the original instructor was carried on to the student. At least as important, it also doesn't necessarily mean that the original philosophy was carried on by the student.
Lineage is one good thing to look at, however, beyond that, an instructor really should be looked at on his or her own individual merits. To directly answer the question: lineage has some importance but it is far from everything.

 

[Revenant777]

It seems to me that lineage is important in this respect. If you want to learn a given art then you need an instructor that knows that art. For the instructor to know the art he must have had an instructor that knew the art. And so on back until the art was founded. In that respect, any instructor must have some line or lineage of people that they learned through. However, it seems to me that when people talk about "Lineage" that is not really what they mean. It seems that often discussions about lineage are based on the idea that the art has been "corrupted" and if you don't have a special lineage then that means that you don't know the secret inner teachings. Or an art is more effective because it was developed by "warriors" and other arts are just developed by sports fighters. In this respect I do not think lineage is important. I guess I would say that I think lineage is important in as much as it is important that an instructor has actually learned what he is teaching. However, I do not think that it matters that someone has a specific, special lineage.

 

[Milt G.]

Hello,

I think that lineage is important in that it allows others to know what you do and, probably, how you do it. Also nice to know you train with an individual who has some knowledge, experience and is qualified in what they are teaching. Nice to know who their teacher(s) were, as well. Kind of like claiming the college you graduated from. Other then that, not too much really important. Different teachers teach the same (or different) things in different ways.

I have seen many martial artists of different skill levels come from many various teachers and groups. I have seen wonderful practitioners come from teachers "off the beaten path".
In the end, it is the individual practitioner that will determine if what they study has any value to themselves, or to others.

I do think it is important for one to know their lineage. What is made of that "lineage" is what is most important IMO.

Thank you,
Milt G.

 

[MJS]

I think this is all together different then what the OP is asking. Self promotion and lineage don't imply each other. I've seen plenty of self promoted AK people with schools out here who DID train under Parker, or trained under someone who did. Earned legit BB but somehow reached 8th in 5 years....

They have the lineage but not the rank or IMHO affiliation with a legit organization.

This happens all over the arts, people with good lineage, but exaggerated rank.

The question here is lineage and weather or not it matters when considering the effectiveness of a MA.

Oh, I'm not saying that there are no self promoted or inflated Kenpo folks out there. And yes, I too, have questioned that, although I usually never get an answer to my question, but hey, what can I do.

As for what I said in my first post. The OP said this:

does it matter who you learned from ? and where they learned from ? cause ive seen that alot of people take pride in saying im direct lineage from a shoalin monk per say or ed parker or bruce lee etc etc what if you just learned from john doe and he learned from john doe sr ? seems in some cases that a guy that does come from and knows his lineage might frown upon the guy that doesnt ?

to which I took the first 2 questions as just what they say...that its possible that they could be learning from a fraud, someone who inflated their own rank or someone who learned from dvd. Maybe I misunderstood what the OP was asking, but thats what it seemed to me. I mean, I could spend money to get all of Larry Tatums dvds, watch them, do the material, and claim to be a student of the Tatum line. Then again, in todays world, its not too hard to verify if someone trains or is affiliated with a certain teacher or group.

 

[Xinglu]

Hello,

I think that lineage is important in that it allows others to know what you do and, probably, how you do it. Also nice to know you train with an individual who has some knowledge, experience and is qualified in what they are teaching. Nice to know who their teacher(s) were, as well. Kind of like claiming the college you graduated from. Other then that, not too much really important. Different teachers teach the same (or different) things in different ways.

I have seen many martial artists of different skill levels come from many various teachers and groups. I have seen wonderful practitioners come from teachers "off the beaten path".
In the end, it is the individual practitioner that will determine if what they study has any value to themselves, or to others.

I do think it is important for one to know their lineage. What is made of that "lineage" is what is most important IMO.

Thank you,
Milt G.

Exactly!

 

[Xinglu]

Oh, I'm not saying that there are no self promoted or inflated Kenpo folks out there. And yes, I too, have questioned that, although I usually never get an answer to my question, but hey, what can I do.

As for what I said in my first post. The OP said this:



to which I took the first 2 questions as just what they say...that its possible that they could be learning from a fraud, someone who inflated their own rank or someone who learned from dvd. Maybe I misunderstood what the OP was asking, but thats what it seemed to me. I mean, I could spend money to get all of Larry Tatums dvds, watch them, do the material, and claim to be a student of the Tatum line. Then again, in todays world, its not too hard to verify if someone trains or is affiliated with a certain teacher or group.

I can see where you're coming from Thanks for the clarification.

I always like to know too, but I also keep an open mind, if the person is good, and the stuff they are teaching is good, I look at lineage as a side note. But yes, ALWAYS check to make sure the person isn't self taught lol

 

[just2kicku]

In my opinion, to me, lineage is somewhat important. If someone opens up a Kaju school, I can look them up and know if they are legit or not. I would much rather take lessons from someone whos' roots can be traced then someone with questionable roots. But, like I said, just my opinion.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I agree with Twinfist (Temperatures in Hell have just dropped significantly... )

If you want to learn self-defense, then the only thing that matters is skill level (as a fighter and a trainer).
If you want to learn a specific art, then lineage IS important because without that, you are not learning said art. You're learning a knock-off. If you specifically want to learn a style, that would be bad.

The third aspect is that if someone clamins lineage which is fake, it not only disqualifies him from the art, but his 'self defense' claims should be checked carefully as well. If he lied about his art, maybe he lied about his skill and experience as well.