Over on the Wing Chun sub-forum, Chisauking offered up the opinion that these days the interest in Chinese martial arts is on the decline do to the rise of MMA. Do you think this is true? Are students dropping out of your schools? Are the traditional Chinese martial arts dying out or becoming something to entertain kids and crack jokes about? What its your experience?
Is Kung Fu "on the decline"?
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mograph
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Yep.
Karate schools are on the wane, offering yoga and pilates to pay the rent. Their main purpose is to babysit kids, it seems.
"Kung fu", in the western public's mind, is an artifact of the seventies.
Tai Chi is still a weird thing for old people.
As for fighting, it's all MMA. Television, magazines and action figures.
People are putting their kids into modern Wushu, but it's hard to say if they'll keep it up. I think that traditional CMA has a future if the trad teachers hook up with a wushu school and transition the kids to trad CMA that way.
Karate schools are on the wane, offering yoga and pilates to pay the rent. Their main purpose is to babysit kids, it seems.
"Kung fu", in the western public's mind, is an artifact of the seventies.
Tai Chi is still a weird thing for old people.
As for fighting, it's all MMA. Television, magazines and action figures.
People are putting their kids into modern Wushu, but it's hard to say if they'll keep it up. I think that traditional CMA has a future if the trad teachers hook up with a wushu school and transition the kids to trad CMA that way.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Regardless of popular belief real live traditional Kung Fu (Wushu) was never that popular in the first place….. the training takes a long time and it can be painful
If MMA was a real issue then Sports Sanshou should be on the rise.... and it isn't. The only 3 real live sports sanshou schools I know of on the east coast are in Boston, NYC and Florida.
If MMA was a real issue then Sports Sanshou should be on the rise.... and it isn't. The only 3 real live sports sanshou schools I know of on the east coast are in Boston, NYC and Florida.
JWLuiza
Black Belt
There's a little indie film coming out soon with some guy named.... um... Chang...Jack Chang....Jackie Chan... that's it!
It might boost numbers for awhile...
It might boost numbers for awhile...
blindsage
Master of Arts
IMHO, kung fu schools are not on the decline, as Xue said they've never had a particularly large following in the first place. The most popular forms of MA- TKD, Taiji, and WC do not seem to have been affected by the rise of MMA. To me MMA is as much a fitness fad as anything else. I think they draw more of their students from 24 Hour Fitness than from other MA schools (near my mother's house the BJJ club is in the same strip mall as the Gold's gym and offered classes there as well). This isn't a criticism of BJJ or MMA it's just a personal observation. There's a lot of people doing MMA training because it's the coolest fitness thing to do right now. CMA hasn't been that (if it ever was) for decades and doesn't generally draw it's students from that population.
i think CMA and FMA both do well without being in the spotlight, also because the goals and methods of each are not what most people are looking for. People are looking for fast paced easy to master sports, games, and martial arts. CMA takes a lot of effort to get good at. FMA too.
CMA has much internal development also, requiring mental development and training that is at a different level to that of arts like MMA. And most take understanding and not just doing the motions to make it useful. now we know any martial art takes understanding and experience and talent to compete well, but most people just want to know, fist to face, foot to ribs, or other easily memorized motions or counters. where as CMA has principles behind the motion which develops certain understandings that are hard to explain with words but easily recognized by feel, which most people rather not spend time doing because they don't see the benefits quickly.
as was mentioned before, kung fu, CMA, etc. are not on a decline because it wasn't that popular to begin with, and that should be ok, because kung fu is not for the masses, nor should it be. qigong perhaps is good for everyone, but not kung fu.
CMA has much internal development also, requiring mental development and training that is at a different level to that of arts like MMA. And most take understanding and not just doing the motions to make it useful. now we know any martial art takes understanding and experience and talent to compete well, but most people just want to know, fist to face, foot to ribs, or other easily memorized motions or counters. where as CMA has principles behind the motion which develops certain understandings that are hard to explain with words but easily recognized by feel, which most people rather not spend time doing because they don't see the benefits quickly.
as was mentioned before, kung fu, CMA, etc. are not on a decline because it wasn't that popular to begin with, and that should be ok, because kung fu is not for the masses, nor should it be. qigong perhaps is good for everyone, but not kung fu.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
bingo.
KnightlyMongoose
White Belt
Martial Arts fade in and out of popularity, I have a feeling that MMA will soon go the way of Tae Bo and there will be nothing left of it but old DVDs at second hand stores (I'm really only joking). But to answer the original question, I do think MMA is hurting kung fu and other traditional styles. Mostly from losing potential students to MMA, but not so much from people leaving their original styles to study MMA. Of course finding a really good kung fu school has always been hard, and the decline of MMA isn't going to change that.
Rabu
Green Belt
Some senior practitioners of TCMA I have regular contact with feel strongly that they are the last of the old guard and that modern training limitations and lack of interest have brought the level of TCMA down and that it is fading.
If thats true, it would only be because no reason was given by them to keep up the level of the art.
I simply disagree with this kind of sentiment altogether. MMA nor TKD or any other fad which blows through affects tradition in the manner described here.
The fad is a literate public being interested in actual practice at all.
Traditional martial arts which have real world applications are HARD WORK. Achievement is difficult and more rare than is credible to the average person. The time put in VS the value taken out is far to small for the normal person to appreciate.
Martial arts (empty hand or mechanistic weaponry training) has always been the perview of a small group of people, even inside of a larger military frame of reference.
Rob
If thats true, it would only be because no reason was given by them to keep up the level of the art.
I simply disagree with this kind of sentiment altogether. MMA nor TKD or any other fad which blows through affects tradition in the manner described here.
The fad is a literate public being interested in actual practice at all.
Traditional martial arts which have real world applications are HARD WORK. Achievement is difficult and more rare than is credible to the average person. The time put in VS the value taken out is far to small for the normal person to appreciate.
Martial arts (empty hand or mechanistic weaponry training) has always been the perview of a small group of people, even inside of a larger military frame of reference.
Rob
mograph
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This is the best-framed reply, in my opinion.
But maybe it would help to define "on the decline"? Are we talking about declining position in the popular consciousness, declining number of students, or declining quality of the art?
In the '70's we had kung fu, then I remember ninjitsu being all the rage in the '80s. The 90's brought us BJJ and now we have MMA.
I think these trends/fads will always be with us and the general public will always look for the next greatest thing to glom on to. Meanwhile, us grizzled old timers will keep doing what we do, and occassionally a young person who has the heart of a warrior will come along and breath just enough fresh air into what we do to keep us going.
Kung fu may never be mainstream again as it was in the 70's but that's probably a good thing.
I think these trends/fads will always be with us and the general public will always look for the next greatest thing to glom on to. Meanwhile, us grizzled old timers will keep doing what we do, and occassionally a young person who has the heart of a warrior will come along and breath just enough fresh air into what we do to keep us going.
Kung fu may never be mainstream again as it was in the 70's but that's probably a good thing.
kidswarrior
Senior Master
I can only speak from my experience, having no broad knowledge of what's happening out there. But for my little club, I've lost several beginning students (six months or less in our school) to MMA gyms. The interesting thing is, though, that I usually find out later they lasted even less time in MMA training. So what did I really lose? They were just passing through, either way.
decline is definitely happening, i believe.
except taiji, many other styles are dying out, or having less practitioner. taiji, as a fighting style, has the same situation. only fitness taiji, without defense requirement is popular, especially in older people.but it's not a kung fu any more.
in real TCMA, the level of successors is dropping sharply. less time, less interest, less usage, etc. it's hard to believe that nowaday someone could do the same training, only one training, for over years.
however, it's nature.as jet lee said, he doesn't warry about this, because it dies for it's out of date.and must be replaced by new one.old is not perfect at all.
except taiji, many other styles are dying out, or having less practitioner. taiji, as a fighting style, has the same situation. only fitness taiji, without defense requirement is popular, especially in older people.but it's not a kung fu any more.
in real TCMA, the level of successors is dropping sharply. less time, less interest, less usage, etc. it's hard to believe that nowaday someone could do the same training, only one training, for over years.
however, it's nature.as jet lee said, he doesn't warry about this, because it dies for it's out of date.and must be replaced by new one.old is not perfect at all.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
True, there are a lot of Bagua Masters whose style will die with them since they cannot find any students as well as many other styles as well. But in some cases, even in China, some of this has to do with it is hard training and takes a long time and they simply do not want to do that, even in China.
Also, as much as I like Jet Li, and I do at least in part agree with what he said, let's not forget that his background is not traditional Chinese Marital Arts, it is Modern (Performance) Wushu and Sports Sanshou.
Old is not always perfect, but neither is new.
There's a little indie film coming out soon with some guy named.... um... Chang...Jack Chang....Jackie Chan... that's it!
It might boost numbers for awhile...
Ya beat me to posting that same thought..Some are hoping that it will do for kung-fu enrollment as the first Karate Kid did for renewed interest in karate schools..
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
OH that's it
...now you've done it..... You have offended my family and you have offended the Shaolin Temple 
punisher73
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In the US there is a disconnect between "popular" and "practice". The "kung fu craze" of the 70's was that, it was a popular form of entertainment found in movies, same with the ninja craze of the 80's. How many people REALLY went out and started to study those arts because of the movies.
MMA is the fastest growing SPECTATOR sport. Most people aren't interested in really training in MMA. They might go to a class once in awhile to say they are MMA fighters, but they don't go through with the training.
In the US, there is a decline on ANY contact combat sport. How many boxing gyms are around still, compared to what there used to be? Hard contact kung fu or karate schools? People want the belt to say they have it without the hard work, sweat and blood it used to take to get it.
The only way that MMA will REALLY impact TMA's is when they figure out a way to make the training as low impact as possible and dish it out McDojo style and make it a belt factory so people can go and claim it. Otherwise, it's just that a fad that people will look at and then lose interest. The small amount of people who are really dedicated to hard work and sweat is about the same, just most look to the MMA gyms to get it now instead of the hard knock TMA schools like in the past.
MMA is the fastest growing SPECTATOR sport. Most people aren't interested in really training in MMA. They might go to a class once in awhile to say they are MMA fighters, but they don't go through with the training.
In the US, there is a decline on ANY contact combat sport. How many boxing gyms are around still, compared to what there used to be? Hard contact kung fu or karate schools? People want the belt to say they have it without the hard work, sweat and blood it used to take to get it.
The only way that MMA will REALLY impact TMA's is when they figure out a way to make the training as low impact as possible and dish it out McDojo style and make it a belt factory so people can go and claim it. Otherwise, it's just that a fad that people will look at and then lose interest. The small amount of people who are really dedicated to hard work and sweat is about the same, just most look to the MMA gyms to get it now instead of the hard knock TMA schools like in the past.
mograph
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You've made me think, Punisher73! Curses on you!
Anyway, you've led me to consider the possibility that hard work is on the decline with respect to physical activity. However, people still work out, and marathoning is still gaining popularity. But why not martial arts, as a physical practice?
People think they'll get beat up or beat up other people?
The paradigm shifts are too great (e.g. "santi shi is good for you")?
It's Chinese, so it's weird (in the west)?
If an art becomes what many people want it to be, it will become more attractive and therefore more popular. Sure people want something new, but they also want something within their comfort zone: "vetted" through existing popularity and not requiring an unexpected amount of mental and physical effort.
Until more people want to beat up other people (because that's the popular image of a lot of what we do), martial arts will remain at their current level of popularity, in my opinion. However, when the aging population reads enough articles about tai chi and sees it practiced by healthy non-Chinese people, it will become more popular as a "health" art. Will that popularity overflow into martial CMA? I hope so ... if anyone is around to teach it by then.
Anyway, you've led me to consider the possibility that hard work is on the decline with respect to physical activity. However, people still work out, and marathoning is still gaining popularity. But why not martial arts, as a physical practice?
People think they'll get beat up or beat up other people?
The paradigm shifts are too great (e.g. "santi shi is good for you")?
It's Chinese, so it's weird (in the west)?
If an art becomes what many people want it to be, it will become more attractive and therefore more popular. Sure people want something new, but they also want something within their comfort zone: "vetted" through existing popularity and not requiring an unexpected amount of mental and physical effort.
Until more people want to beat up other people (because that's the popular image of a lot of what we do), martial arts will remain at their current level of popularity, in my opinion. However, when the aging population reads enough articles about tai chi and sees it practiced by healthy non-Chinese people, it will become more popular as a "health" art. Will that popularity overflow into martial CMA? I hope so ... if anyone is around to teach it by then.
Shifu Steve
Green Belt
The only experience I've had with regards to this is in trying to recruit students. I agree with earlier posts that defining "decline" has to be in context (ie pop culture vs actual enrollment in training). However in my case, I still train with a couple guys that I've trained with for years. In the past I have tried to retain a few students of my own so I could of course enjoy teaching as well as give me a means to practice. In my attempts to recruit students I've found that a lot of them ask how it relates to MMA; as if MMA was the be all and end all of martial arts training. It's funny because in many cases I don't think they know what MMA is in the first place. I guess they imagine it's a formula of boxing, muay thai and BJJ. I suppose that's one combination but come on; Mixed Martial Arts is so vague that it could be any combination. Anyhow, my long winded point is that due to misconception, pop culture and confusion of sport for martial arts I think that some (in my personal experience) have been reluctant to train in Kung Fu because they think of kata or tradition and can't make the connection of how it will benefit them. I also think there are misconceptions that kata is impractical for self defense (or offense).
