Is it really the person not the style?

[Tez3]

Nam Tae Hi met General Choi after using what would later be named TKD on the battlefield in Korea in the 1950s. Obviously not spear handing through a mans chest, but popularizing it enough. He later did a lot of demos that helped it become popular civilian side.

Alex Gillis did a lot of interviewing and research for his book, he even has videos of some of the interviews on his youtube page.

Until sport TKD became popular, it was a completely different monster.

My father was on the battlefields in Korea and certainly didn't see guys using martial arts to fight. I'm sorry but I find it very difficult to believe that TKD was an efficient weapon to be using in what is after all a modern battlefield. I wouldn't go so far as to say someone along the line is telling porkies but certainly I think someone is sexing up TKD.

 

[Drose427]

TKD wasnt what youre used to seeing back then. It was very much Shotokan or other Karate styles with Korean twists and methodologies. None of the flashy kicks, very hand to hand focused. What we see now i.e. 540, and whatever other weird kicks you see in sport TKD, didnt come for many many years after TKD was even named, and they wanted something to distinct them from Karate.

 

[hoshin1600]

History is written by the victor....or the government.
martial arts legitimacy is in direct proportion to its age. the older art has been seen as more authentic then the next variant that pops up. there are many examples of cultural changes in the martial arts when governments and countries are at odds. the oral histories that have been past down from MA teacher to student should not be taken as actual fact. often they are colored by political intervention, nationalistic retoric and self serving lies and censorship.

"my MA teacher told me that he had a vision of a white tiger that taught him all the secrets of fighting. after he received his Menkyo certificate in kung-fu, jiu-jitsu he found bullets could not penitrate his skin while serving in the war. "
Yeah yeah thats the ticket...<(old billy crystal, SNL reference for those not old enough to remember)

 

[RTKDCMB]

Tkd in the battlefield? Cite a reference please. Some of the precursors to tkd maybe, but I doubt anyone was doing 540 kicks or any fancy high kicks against guys with swords and spears.

I don't know if they were used on the battlefield (the precursors to TKD) but they were taught to Korean military personnel such as the Marines..

 

[qwerty]

So it's that the more famous a martial art is the more schools there are that teach the art and the more fake or less professional schools there are? So does that means that rarer old styles are more likely to be genuine?

 

[RTKDCMB]

If so, then why do people learn martial arts if they could do just as well with their own method?

Because in order to learn martial arts you need to learn from someone competent.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So it's that the more famous a martial art is the more schools there are that teach the art and the more fake or less professional schools there are? So does that means that rarer old styles are more likely to be genuine?

Not really. Fake histories and incompetent teachers go back as far as the martial arts do. Regardless of the style you are considering, you do your research and you take your chances.

 

[Zero]

Hey not all! My TSD school took from Goju Ryu

yeah but you guys are paying us a royalty fee on that, so all good

 

[Zero]

Not really. Fake histories and incompetent teachers go back as far as the martial arts do. Regardless of the style you are considering, you do your research and you take your chances.

Yes, there are quite a few rare/obscure styles out there that are absolutely bonkers and of less worth to the students on any level than McDojos even.

 

[Zero]

Nam Tae Hi met General Choi after using what would later be named TKD on the battlefield in Korea in the 1950s. Obviously not spear handing through a mans chest, but popularizing it enough. He later did a lot of demos that helped it become popular civilian side.

Alex Gillis did a lot of interviewing and research for his book, he even has videos of some of the interviews on his youtube page.

Until sport TKD became popular, it was a completely different monster.

No disrespect intended but it's simply hard to verify whether what he was saying or implying was the truth of the matter. He may well have found himself in a H2H situation in Korea and used techniques that would later become part of TKD (or perhaps be left out of TKD...) but it is hard to see that happening to any large degree in the modern warfare setting of Korea with the weaponry and approach involved.

 

[Zero]

I don't know if they were used on the battlefield (the precursors to TKD) but they were taught to Korean military personnel such as the Marines..

Yeah, just like H2H is taught to a degree to contemporary Marines but how often does a Marine use this in real conflict or find himself, or put himself, in that position?

 

[Drose427]

No disrespect intended but it's simply hard to verify whether what he was saying or implying was the truth of the matter. He may well have found himself in a H2H situation in Korea and used techniques that would later become part of TKD (or perhaps be left out of TKD...) but it is hard to see that happening to any large degree in the modern warfare setting of Korea with the weaponry and approach involved.

My original point wasnt that every soldier was doing it was doing it, but that it did come from few soldiers and Korean MAists. It was still born on the battlefield as H2H. In reality, the battle with Nam Tae Hi was really what put "Korean Karate" into the light and what led Choi and others to name it TKD and put focus wherever they wished.

I dont believe it was ever widely taught to the Korean Military till long after the japanese left and the "TKD" label started getting slapped on to everything.

As you said in another comment, how often do you see a massive number of soldiers fighting with H2H? Never. But that was never my point.

 

[Tez3]

TKD wasnt what youre used to seeing back then

You are assuming that all I've seen is 'sport' TKD.

I would say that almost for certain that TKD wasn't 'born on the battlefield' however romantic and attractive a story that may be.
The military from most countries do learn hand to hand fighting but they learn it before they get to the battlefield, it isn't suddenly worked out as they are fighting the enemy. the techniques in TKD come from an earlier time and for self defence for civilians not for the military, they certainly can be adapted for military use but these aren't new and weren't born in 1950s battlefields.

 

[Steve]

I understand that the thread has drifted a bit since the OP, but just to add my two cents, it's not just the person nor is it just the style, although both play a role.

I'd say most importantly is the training model. How is the training taught? How well organized is the training? How is proficiency measured and tested? The technique may be sound and the trainee may be earnest and apt, but if the training model is flawed, any real proficiency is going to be a huge challenge.

 

[drop bear]

The way I look at it is this..

Suppose I practice the most effective martial art on the planet - Superduper Ryu Jutsu, which has been scientifically designed to be 99.99% efficient in street fighting application.

Suppose you, on the other hand, practice Lameass Do, an art created by selecting the stupidest and least effective techniques from every other art and stitching them together without regard for coherent principles. Based on careful holodeck simulations, we can tell that Lameass Do is only 10% efficient in a street fight.

Clearly then, in a real fight I should defeat you every time, right?

Not so fast. What I forgot to mention is that you really, really love Lameass Do, and as a result you train your butt off every day of the week. I, on the other hand don't really care that much about Superduper Ryu. I only attend the school because it was the closest one to my house and I never train more than two days a week. My art might be 10 times as efficient, but you train 20 times harder. When we clash, you win.

Unfair comparison, some might say. What if you were the one putting your dedicated work ethic into mastering Superduper Ryu? Wouldn't you be that much more badass? Possibly, but here's the catch - you tried Superduper Ryu and you didn't enjoy it. Since you didn't enjoy it, you didn't practice it that much. It wasn't until you switched over to Lameass Do that you became a training monster.

That's why I always tell potential martial arts students to find something they love practicing rather than worrying about which is the deadliest art.

There is probably a limit to that as well though. Where lameasdo is actually working against you and not for you.

I have trained with guys from styles that are so deadly they think every submission is going to kill them. The collapso tap monkey effect.

 

[drop bear]

So it's that the more famous a martial art is the more schools there are that teach the art and the more fake or less professional schools there are? So does that means that rarer old styles are more likely to be genuine?

No. And i am not sure why. But you look at things like American indian systems. And they are packed full of shady.

 

[Touch Of Death]

No. And i am not sure why. But you look at things like American indian systems. And they are packed full of shady.

If by shady, you mean Kenpo guys, then yeah baby!

 

[drop bear]

If by shady, you mean Kenpo guys, then yeah baby!

 

[RTKDCMB]

Yeah, just like H2H is taught to a degree to contemporary Marines but how often does a Marine use this in real conflict or find himself, or put himself, in that position?

You would have to ask Marine?

 

[qianfeng]

I'm just wondering if its the person not the style, then what's the point of MA? I mean I'm a great fan of MA, but does this mean a person who doesn't train MA but creates their own style could be just as effective as if they did MA training? If not then is it actually that some styles could be more effective? If so, then why do people learn martial arts if they could do just as well with their own method?

Um... i think it means styles which have been made and improved by people over time who generally know how to fight. The basics for most styles would be the same for example straight punches hooks, front kicks uppercuts what ever.