Is it better to jump around while sparring?
- Thread starter Minidoggy
- Start date
MD, there's more than one take on what's involved. You have to look critically at the advice you get, but then take it to the mat/dojang floor/street and test it. Myself, I will always keep my arms in a `Fence' configuration that will allow me an aggressive guard. But I'm not interesting in MAs for competition, only for very agressive self-defense in the face of unsought violence...
Last Fearner
2nd Black Belt
Minidoggy,
Since your original question was seeking an explanation about what you have observed in Olympic Competition, my replies have been mostly an explanation to that end. Although there is sound logic and potential for most of these same skills used in tournaments to be applied in real-life self defense, keep in mind that not ALL "real-life" self defense scenarios are the same, nor do I believe there is a true "standard," "average" or "common" scenario world-wide or nationwide.
I'll come back to your competition questions in a moment, but consider this about what you asked for applying any of this to self defense. I doubt that anyone can give an accurate statement as to what the "average street fight" is going to be like. Realize that if a person spent their entire life at the Yacht-club, the most "common" attack might be a slap in the face. They could defend themselves in ten-thousand fights in their life-time, and never encounter a close range assault with knees and elbows, or a ground-fight.
If one were to spend a lot of time in bars, or pool halls, the most "common" attack might be with a beer bottle, pool cue, or a knife. It depends greatly on your environment, the kind of people you associate with, and what country, state, town, or neighborhood you are in. In one particular town, the most "common" attack might be a "sucker punch" without warning, or a smash over the back of your head with a baseball bat. I have seen enough fights, and participated in enough (through law enforcement, security work, and personal self defense) to know that there is no standard that applies to everyone everywhere. Many variables affect the "type" of assault which might start the fight, and what occurs as the fight progresses. There are many occasions, for real people in real-life self defense, where tournament type sparring is applicable and works just fine. There are other situations where one-step type defense is better, and yet other situations where all-out blood-bath life or death combat is what is required.
My advice is to train in as much variety of tactics as you can, and apply them wisely to each situation as it presents itself. Some people believe in going for blood at the onset of any confrontation (no mercy, take no prisoners, leave no survivors). If that is your mind-set, then go for it! I believe in having that as ONE option. However, I do not believe that the advice against knowing how and when to apply sparring like skills to the street is entirely correct.
Now, back to your tournament questions. If you are considering competing in a tournament (especially with rules similar to Olympic Taekwondo) then you need to know what the opponent is likely to do and why - - so these are very good questions you are asking. Even if you choose not to fight this way, it is best to learn what has been working at Olympic games and why it works.
I competed as a young Black Belt back in the mid '70's, and the interesting thing is that the most commonly used techniques that worked then, changed by the '80's and again in the '90's. Some things remain consistent, but fighters get smart to the tricks and tactics of other fighters, thus strategy is constantly changing. It often cycles around and the old is brought back again, and surprisingly starts to work all over again.
The guards down is typically best at a distance, but you only need to be inches outside the opponent's reach - not 5 or 10 feet. If punching to the face is allowed, guards would be best brought up when you close within arms reach, but decide upon your own strategy. Some fighters like to fight close, and will constantly be pushing to reduce the distance. Others prefer the distance and will be best to strike fast and hard while in close (with guards covering your head) then back off or slip out diagonally to increase the range. A fighter who is constantly moving in, must get past the danger zone of your long range strikes (which is not as easily done as it sounds), but then must also encounter a good close range offense (which you must have to offer).
Since the WTF Olympic rules currently do not allow face punches, there is not much concern about keeping the guards up when in close (this can develop a bad habit for real-life so here is one example where classroom training needs to differ). Olympic fighters tend to bump chests when in close, and keep their arms extended low and foward to preven kicks from rising up to the head.
From my own personal experience, one way is not absolutely better than the other, but learn to use them both (don't rule out what you are seeing in Olympic matches because others say it doesn't work). I have competed in many tournaments over the years (not strictly Taekwondo). I have been a competitor at State Olympic Taekwondo Games (several Gold Medals), and I have judged, and refereed at state and national JR. and SR. Olympics as well as coached at an International Taekwondo event.
One thing to understand about using your arms in defense is that the length of most people's upper arm (from shoulder to elbow) does not reach to the waist line. Thus, if you bend your elbows to bring your forearms up in a standard, basic guard position, you can not cover your head and your mid-section at the same time. Since attacking above the waist can allow a sidekick, or roundkick at the belt line, the elbow must be dropped, or the forearm lowered to block. This means that the face or head is then open. If you raise to cover the head, the waistline is open.
Now, a person who prefers to keep their guards up and block more often, will have a response as to how to prevent these attacks, but it is still a strategy that might work, but is not infallible. In my opinion, an inexperienced fighter should NOT fight with guards down. However, to say that the guards should "always" be up, is very limited and narrow in over-all experience and understanding of various applications and strategy.
Minidoggy, since you are primarily asking about tournament strategy, this is one important lesson to learn. A kick to the mid-section can be blocked, but a secondary kick to the next available target happens too fast to react (a point that Bill Wallace has proven time and again). If punches to the face are allowed, a kick mid-section which is blocked will allow a fast hand strike to the head. Ignore the kick to protect your head, and the kick might be very painful.
Each fighter chooses the guarding stance that works best for them, and no particular choice can be held up as the "best." If you choose to leave both guards down, you need to know how to work distance, angles, and body adjustments to spoil attacks rather than block, but blocking is still an option. Some fighters will use a "one guard up and one down" (like Bill Wallace uses - sorry for mentioning his name so much, but he is a well-known example of how this strategy works and not just in TKD/WTF/Olympics). Others use both guards up. Some stand sideways, while others stand straight on facing the opponent.
Personally, I don't like to stay with the same guard postition throughout an entire fight. Changing from both hands up, both down, or one up and one down keeps my opponent from knowing where available targets might be. Furthermore, I'll give you one last hint (or secret, as it were). By lowering my guards, and turning my body at specific angles, I intentionally leave some targets open to my opponent. The only thing is, I know which target is open, thus can better determine how to respond when my opponent goes for that target.
As to how to fight in the street. Think about this example in nature: Two kangaroos fighting each other use similar tactics. Two porcupines fighting each other use similar tactics. However, you might want to approach fighting a kangaroo differently than fighting a porcupine. You have to know who you are, and what you are up against, then apply whatever tactics will work in that situation. Not one strategy works for all situations.
CM D.J. Eisenhart
Since your original question was seeking an explanation about what you have observed in Olympic Competition, my replies have been mostly an explanation to that end. Although there is sound logic and potential for most of these same skills used in tournaments to be applied in real-life self defense, keep in mind that not ALL "real-life" self defense scenarios are the same, nor do I believe there is a true "standard," "average" or "common" scenario world-wide or nationwide.
I'll come back to your competition questions in a moment, but consider this about what you asked for applying any of this to self defense. I doubt that anyone can give an accurate statement as to what the "average street fight" is going to be like. Realize that if a person spent their entire life at the Yacht-club, the most "common" attack might be a slap in the face. They could defend themselves in ten-thousand fights in their life-time, and never encounter a close range assault with knees and elbows, or a ground-fight.
If one were to spend a lot of time in bars, or pool halls, the most "common" attack might be with a beer bottle, pool cue, or a knife. It depends greatly on your environment, the kind of people you associate with, and what country, state, town, or neighborhood you are in. In one particular town, the most "common" attack might be a "sucker punch" without warning, or a smash over the back of your head with a baseball bat. I have seen enough fights, and participated in enough (through law enforcement, security work, and personal self defense) to know that there is no standard that applies to everyone everywhere. Many variables affect the "type" of assault which might start the fight, and what occurs as the fight progresses. There are many occasions, for real people in real-life self defense, where tournament type sparring is applicable and works just fine. There are other situations where one-step type defense is better, and yet other situations where all-out blood-bath life or death combat is what is required.
My advice is to train in as much variety of tactics as you can, and apply them wisely to each situation as it presents itself. Some people believe in going for blood at the onset of any confrontation (no mercy, take no prisoners, leave no survivors). If that is your mind-set, then go for it! I believe in having that as ONE option. However, I do not believe that the advice against knowing how and when to apply sparring like skills to the street is entirely correct.
Now, back to your tournament questions. If you are considering competing in a tournament (especially with rules similar to Olympic Taekwondo) then you need to know what the opponent is likely to do and why - - so these are very good questions you are asking. Even if you choose not to fight this way, it is best to learn what has been working at Olympic games and why it works.
I competed as a young Black Belt back in the mid '70's, and the interesting thing is that the most commonly used techniques that worked then, changed by the '80's and again in the '90's. Some things remain consistent, but fighters get smart to the tricks and tactics of other fighters, thus strategy is constantly changing. It often cycles around and the old is brought back again, and surprisingly starts to work all over again.
The guards down is typically best at a distance, but you only need to be inches outside the opponent's reach - not 5 or 10 feet. If punching to the face is allowed, guards would be best brought up when you close within arms reach, but decide upon your own strategy. Some fighters like to fight close, and will constantly be pushing to reduce the distance. Others prefer the distance and will be best to strike fast and hard while in close (with guards covering your head) then back off or slip out diagonally to increase the range. A fighter who is constantly moving in, must get past the danger zone of your long range strikes (which is not as easily done as it sounds), but then must also encounter a good close range offense (which you must have to offer).
Since the WTF Olympic rules currently do not allow face punches, there is not much concern about keeping the guards up when in close (this can develop a bad habit for real-life so here is one example where classroom training needs to differ). Olympic fighters tend to bump chests when in close, and keep their arms extended low and foward to preven kicks from rising up to the head.
From my own personal experience, one way is not absolutely better than the other, but learn to use them both (don't rule out what you are seeing in Olympic matches because others say it doesn't work). I have competed in many tournaments over the years (not strictly Taekwondo). I have been a competitor at State Olympic Taekwondo Games (several Gold Medals), and I have judged, and refereed at state and national JR. and SR. Olympics as well as coached at an International Taekwondo event.
One thing to understand about using your arms in defense is that the length of most people's upper arm (from shoulder to elbow) does not reach to the waist line. Thus, if you bend your elbows to bring your forearms up in a standard, basic guard position, you can not cover your head and your mid-section at the same time. Since attacking above the waist can allow a sidekick, or roundkick at the belt line, the elbow must be dropped, or the forearm lowered to block. This means that the face or head is then open. If you raise to cover the head, the waistline is open.
Now, a person who prefers to keep their guards up and block more often, will have a response as to how to prevent these attacks, but it is still a strategy that might work, but is not infallible. In my opinion, an inexperienced fighter should NOT fight with guards down. However, to say that the guards should "always" be up, is very limited and narrow in over-all experience and understanding of various applications and strategy.
Minidoggy, since you are primarily asking about tournament strategy, this is one important lesson to learn. A kick to the mid-section can be blocked, but a secondary kick to the next available target happens too fast to react (a point that Bill Wallace has proven time and again). If punches to the face are allowed, a kick mid-section which is blocked will allow a fast hand strike to the head. Ignore the kick to protect your head, and the kick might be very painful.
Each fighter chooses the guarding stance that works best for them, and no particular choice can be held up as the "best." If you choose to leave both guards down, you need to know how to work distance, angles, and body adjustments to spoil attacks rather than block, but blocking is still an option. Some fighters will use a "one guard up and one down" (like Bill Wallace uses - sorry for mentioning his name so much, but he is a well-known example of how this strategy works and not just in TKD/WTF/Olympics). Others use both guards up. Some stand sideways, while others stand straight on facing the opponent.
Personally, I don't like to stay with the same guard postition throughout an entire fight. Changing from both hands up, both down, or one up and one down keeps my opponent from knowing where available targets might be. Furthermore, I'll give you one last hint (or secret, as it were). By lowering my guards, and turning my body at specific angles, I intentionally leave some targets open to my opponent. The only thing is, I know which target is open, thus can better determine how to respond when my opponent goes for that target.
As to how to fight in the street. Think about this example in nature: Two kangaroos fighting each other use similar tactics. Two porcupines fighting each other use similar tactics. However, you might want to approach fighting a kangaroo differently than fighting a porcupine. You have to know who you are, and what you are up against, then apply whatever tactics will work in that situation. Not one strategy works for all situations.
CM D.J. Eisenhart
What a great thread...good info all around (wanted to spread some rep but can't yet 
)
Anyway, Last Fearner has really summed up the strategy and logic of the Olympic style low gaurd as it relates to that style of competition. Exile has made a good case for the startegy and tactics needed for close-quarters self-defense. (basically opposite ends of the spectrum as it were)
This leads me to my thought/point....which I think has been alluded to but not stated. A skilled, expereinced fighter/martial artists needs to be flexible and able to adapt to whatever circumstances prevent themselves. For example, a typical wrestling gaurd has the wrestler crouched with one foot slightly forward, weight evenly distributed, hands open and arms slightly forward. This allows for good balance, the ability to stay mobile and explode into a shot or takedown as well as work towards at least a neutral if not dominating clinch position. It also allows the wrestler to sprawl easier defending againt the shot.
It would be suicide to adopt this type of gaurd in an Olympic TKD match. It would be hard ot kick fast or pwoerful from sutch a position and the low/forward position of the head would make the odds of taking a devastating kick to the head that much greater (as I am not allowed to shoot or grab the opponent). Conversely, a TKD low gaurd would be useless in a wrestling match.
It's been said before...the person who is most skilled under a given ruleset (or a particular set of circumstances) will have a significant edge in a fight. Every style has it's tactics and strategies...these tend to give rise to the defining characteristics that make up what we call the "style". If one takes time to learn the system then the reasons for these things generally become apparent. What makes no sense from the outside looking in totally makes sense once one is onthe inside.
Another example, Wing Chun (studied for a bit...not an expert by any stretch so if I misrepresent, I apologise). The fighting stance in WC is a bit pgieon-toed with the arms up about chect level (on the center line) hands open. I personally find the stance odd...but given that WC is a style that is meant to get in close and keep contatc with the opponent while simultaneously attacking and defending...it makes sense. It's a stable stance, easy to move off center line, allows one to better generate hip torgue for short-range strikes (such as the famous 1 inch punch). What looked looked silly to me at first makes sense in th end.
So, to me, having skill in all combat ranges...AND having the awareness of what the specific situation is (as it changes....fast) is what to me defines a great martial artist. Someone who can work with a low gaurd under Olympic TKD rules, then perhaps adopt a more Thai style stance in a kickboxing tournamnet to a more standard gaurd for CQ SD work....and be generally copmpetent and successful regardless is what I see as a great fighter.
Just because someone is known to compete and do well in one set of circumstances does not mean that they will always use that skill set in ALL circumstances. Many of us have lots of tools in the toolbox 9even if we don't always get to use them).
Peace,
Erik
)Anyway, Last Fearner has really summed up the strategy and logic of the Olympic style low gaurd as it relates to that style of competition. Exile has made a good case for the startegy and tactics needed for close-quarters self-defense. (basically opposite ends of the spectrum as it were)
This leads me to my thought/point....which I think has been alluded to but not stated. A skilled, expereinced fighter/martial artists needs to be flexible and able to adapt to whatever circumstances prevent themselves. For example, a typical wrestling gaurd has the wrestler crouched with one foot slightly forward, weight evenly distributed, hands open and arms slightly forward. This allows for good balance, the ability to stay mobile and explode into a shot or takedown as well as work towards at least a neutral if not dominating clinch position. It also allows the wrestler to sprawl easier defending againt the shot.
It would be suicide to adopt this type of gaurd in an Olympic TKD match. It would be hard ot kick fast or pwoerful from sutch a position and the low/forward position of the head would make the odds of taking a devastating kick to the head that much greater (as I am not allowed to shoot or grab the opponent). Conversely, a TKD low gaurd would be useless in a wrestling match.
It's been said before...the person who is most skilled under a given ruleset (or a particular set of circumstances) will have a significant edge in a fight. Every style has it's tactics and strategies...these tend to give rise to the defining characteristics that make up what we call the "style". If one takes time to learn the system then the reasons for these things generally become apparent. What makes no sense from the outside looking in totally makes sense once one is onthe inside.
Another example, Wing Chun (studied for a bit...not an expert by any stretch so if I misrepresent, I apologise). The fighting stance in WC is a bit pgieon-toed with the arms up about chect level (on the center line) hands open. I personally find the stance odd...but given that WC is a style that is meant to get in close and keep contatc with the opponent while simultaneously attacking and defending...it makes sense. It's a stable stance, easy to move off center line, allows one to better generate hip torgue for short-range strikes (such as the famous 1 inch punch). What looked looked silly to me at first makes sense in th end.
So, to me, having skill in all combat ranges...AND having the awareness of what the specific situation is (as it changes....fast) is what to me defines a great martial artist. Someone who can work with a low gaurd under Olympic TKD rules, then perhaps adopt a more Thai style stance in a kickboxing tournamnet to a more standard gaurd for CQ SD work....and be generally copmpetent and successful regardless is what I see as a great fighter.
Just because someone is known to compete and do well in one set of circumstances does not mean that they will always use that skill set in ALL circumstances. Many of us have lots of tools in the toolbox 9even if we don't always get to use them).
Peace,
Erik
hey thanks guys
especially exile for the newsletter, fearner for taking the time to go into allll that detail ( ireally appreciate it) and bluekey for clarifying things =]
lol i really learned a lot ^_^
btw I never heard of bill wallace. plus he really fast, and he gives very good tips.
oh oneee last question.. remember fearner you said that you're not suppose to bounce constantly but at regular intervals? do you think that maybe doing so will be an indication to the opponent when you'll attack? let's say he's more of a counter attack guy.. then if he sees you bounce, he'll probably tense up and prepare himself.. once you stop bouncing, he might relax.. and yea..
especially exile for the newsletter, fearner for taking the time to go into allll that detail ( ireally appreciate it) and bluekey for clarifying things =]
lol i really learned a lot ^_^
btw I never heard of bill wallace. plus he really fast, and he gives very good tips.
oh oneee last question.. remember fearner you said that you're not suppose to bounce constantly but at regular intervals? do you think that maybe doing so will be an indication to the opponent when you'll attack? let's say he's more of a counter attack guy.. then if he sees you bounce, he'll probably tense up and prepare himself.. once you stop bouncing, he might relax.. and yea..
Last Fearner
2nd Black Belt
OMG! Did I understand you correctly? You had never heard of Bill "Superfoot" Wallace? Well, if that is true, and you still don't know much about him, read this short bio here:
http://www.superfoot.com/aboutbill.htm
Here's some photos:
http://www.superfoot.com/images/gallery/index.htm
This is a good point, and should be considered when using any strategy of movement, postition of guards, shifting of body weight, etc. A good fighter will observe these things and read the "telegraphing." On the other hand, an even better fighter will use intentional telegraphing to trick their opponent into thinking they are about to attack, or that they are temporarily vulnerable.
The bouncing in Olympic Sparring is not done constantly for obvious reasons. A fighter would become very tired. Usually, both fighters using a similar strategy will back off a few feet, stand loose in a relaxed fighting stance in order to rest. One or both fighters will then attempt to gradually close the distance, or fake lunges by stomping, switching stances, or executing half effort kicks to mask their approach, or to draw the opponent into action.
The bouncing is usually done for only a few seconds before the fighter either stops bouncing (changing stance, position, or rhythm), fakes an attack, or launches an all out assault. If you only attack when you bounce, then it is a bit of a clue. If you attack every time you bounce, then you become predictable. The beauty of the bounce is that it develops a rhythm for both offense and defense, and can help to draw your opponent into following that rhythm. If you vary the choices of attacking, faking, or counter-attack your opponent's move, then the bouncing is not predictable as an indication you are going to attack.
CM D.J. Eisenhart
hey thanks for your really detailed replies fearner
I have one lasttt question >_<
well, I've been watching a bunch of videos and I noticed that some (mainly the olympics) will have a very long stance.. not super long but longer than usual ..
now I might been observing too much, but is there like a purpose to that? I was thinking maybe their trying to get more momentum with their back leg being farther. Except I think maybe it would be quicker if their stance were a little closer because of less distance traveled right?
btw, thanks for the info on bill wallace. he seems amazing =] I watch a couple videos from him, and he's extremely fast for his current age.
I have one lasttt question >_<
well, I've been watching a bunch of videos and I noticed that some (mainly the olympics) will have a very long stance.. not super long but longer than usual ..
now I might been observing too much, but is there like a purpose to that? I was thinking maybe their trying to get more momentum with their back leg being farther. Except I think maybe it would be quicker if their stance were a little closer because of less distance traveled right?
btw, thanks for the info on bill wallace. he seems amazing =] I watch a couple videos from him, and he's extremely fast for his current age.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Wow there is some impressive stuff in this post.
But since I was early to this and then lost track and now rather late I just want to throw in my .5 cents and crawl back to my cave.
My only problem with hopping, from a CMA perspective, is that at some point you are not touching the ground, therefore not rooted and very vulnerable.
But since I was early to this and then lost track and now rather late I just want to throw in my .5 cents and crawl back to my cave.
My only problem with hopping, from a CMA perspective, is that at some point you are not touching the ground, therefore not rooted and very vulnerable.
I will say that if you do the bounce right, you should never quite leave the ground. Your heels should go up, but the balls of your feet should maintain some contact.
Sometimes a competitor will get over-excited and put too much into the bounce, but IMO this is not the proper way to utilize this movement technique.
Peace,
Erik
Sometimes a competitor will get over-excited and put too much into the bounce, but IMO this is not the proper way to utilize this movement technique.
Peace,
Erik
