Is Humility Necessary in Martial Arts?

[Brian King]

opcorn:
When in the military (decades ago) it used to be great entertainment to observe two privates, one who enlisted on the evening of the 19th of the month and the other the morning of the 20th, arguing about who outranked who based on time in service and time in grade. Kind of like reading ego/insecurity driven postings on humility. As Jenna has previously stated up thread all have something to teach and I for one applaud all the posters contributing to the conversations. They provide lessons, examples, and entertainment even if currently unaware of it themselves.

Onwards
Brian King

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich, thank you again my friend for posting your thoughts and experiences, I think you have altered my perception of some things and I am grateful for that. I am glad you are still intact after having been in so many hazardous and dangerous situations. I think fear is a given, even though we try to put it to the back. I think fear in the face of a much more competent adversary be that on mats or elsewhere causes me particularly to revert to a humility that I do not think is always appropriate. While I think conceit (and particularly the extreme of it which can verge on delusion) is a negative mindset and but in certain situations, I think it can be useful? I do not even mean self-belief as I think self-belief permits the possibility of defeat. I mean the kind of conceit that will not even consider defeat a possibility.

Jenna, I never really did get into the sparring for fun. I can go out and play and try things out. I know I will get hit. I know I may loose and I am really not worried as I was able to test some things. I understand people have different mindsets and different goals in their training. Please do not take my comments as you or anyone else should think about changing because I have said something.

If what I have said makes or causes you to think and you choose all on your own to change then I support your change. :~)

Do you think that is a mindset that can be a good thing? Or is it foolish, particularly in a defensive situation? Thank you again Rich.

I accept the defeat. I was teaching a class early on. Someone came in and wanted to watch I let them. I started asking them questions if they were insterested. The guy got arrogant and stated he thought he could beat me at sparring.

I told him I had already lost. He looked happy and nodded his head. One of my students asked me Why had I already lost. I explained. The challenge has been issued. I have lost. If I refuse the challenge I will loose in the minds of him and the students. If I accept and he wins then I loose the same as above. If I accept and win, then I loose as I have used violence for a non event. I may also loose if he decides to take me to court.

I then countered with the following. I accept my loss. Yet I request that he give me time to let the students change and leave. I would lock the doors so no one could get in. It was also a place with no windows to see in, being that they were boarded over given the neighborhood. We would then fight it out. No rules. Just the two of us and the winner would know and the looser would know, but I would be able to defend my self in court later.

The guy was angry now. He was being called out for a private fight. He then started mumbling about about rules. I told him we could not settle this with his rules. So no rules was the only way to approach this. He got up and left. One student did ask why I did not just get him on the matts and show him first. I explained the legal issues. I knew he would not sign a waiver and I also knew he would be one to call the cops if he got a bruise or worse. I lost that student, but kept the rest and did not go to court.

From this I took a simple rule for myself. Yes there can be a sparring match between two people to solve the issues.
1) First match is by their rules - it must not be a marathon, but physcial confrontation, from arm wrestling to point fighting.
2) Second match would be by my rules.
3) Third match no rules empty hand fighting.

All three matches must be fought in the same day. If you cannot move forward then you are out.

NOTE: This is not a challenge to anyone on this forum for that is against the rules and not allowed. It is only a statement within a story.

To answer you question another way: Yes it can be a good thing. As long as you understand that the lack of defeat as a possibility means you are alive to continue on to the next day. Then yes. If not then as stated by you and others, your ego and personality will take a lot of hits. As with my example above, I got through the event with no confrontation and the least amount of loss to myself and others. In an absolute sense it was a loss and not a win. In another sense I am still teaching ( and working as an engineer) and not paying of some law suit.

 

[Jenna]

Jenna, I never really did get into the sparring for fun. I can go out and play and try things out. I know I will get hit. I know I may loose and I am really not worried as I was able to test some things. I understand people have different mindsets and different goals in their training. Please do not take my comments as you or anyone else should think about changing because I have said something.

If what I have said makes or causes you to think and you choose all on your own to change then I support your change. :~)




I accept the defeat. I was teaching a class early on. Someone came in and wanted to watch I let them. I started asking them questions if they were insterested. The guy got arrogant and stated he thought he could beat me at sparring.

I told him I had already lost. He looked happy and nodded his head. One of my students asked me Why had I already lost. I explained. The challenge has been issued. I have lost. If I refuse the challenge I will loose in the minds of him and the students. If I accept and he wins then I loose the same as above. If I accept and win, then I loose as I have used violence for a non event. I may also loose if he decides to take me to court.

I then countered with the following. I accept my loss. Yet I request that he give me time to let the students change and leave. I would lock the doors so no one could get in. It was also a place with no windows to see in, being that they were boarded over given the neighborhood. We would then fight it out. No rules. Just the two of us and the winner would know and the looser would know, but I would be able to defend my self in court later.

The guy was angry now. He was being called out for a private fight. He then started mumbling about about rules. I told him we could not settle this with his rules. So no rules was the only way to approach this. He got up and left. One student did ask why I did not just get him on the matts and show him first. I explained the legal issues. I knew he would not sign a waiver and I also knew he would be one to call the cops if he got a bruise or worse. I lost that student, but kept the rest and did not go to court.

From this I took a simple rule for myself. Yes there can be a sparring match between two people to solve the issues.
1) First match is by their rules - it must not be a marathon, but physcial confrontation, from arm wrestling to point fighting.
2) Second match would be by my rules.
3) Third match no rules empty hand fighting.

All three matches must be fought in the same day. If you cannot move forward then you are out.

NOTE: This is not a challenge to anyone on this forum for that is against the rules and not allowed. It is only a statement within a story.

To answer you question another way: Yes it can be a good thing. As long as you understand that the lack of defeat as a possibility means you are alive to continue on to the next day. Then yes. If not then as stated by you and others, your ego and personality will take a lot of hits. As with my example above, I got through the event with no confrontation and the least amount of loss to myself and others. In an absolute sense it was a loss and not a win. In another sense I am still teaching ( and working as an engineer) and not paying of some law suit.

Rich, I like that you live "the way". I think that is often spoken about. Anyway, thank you for putting your mind to this. I do not know if you mean intentionally this line "As long as you understand that the lack of defeat as a possibility means you are alive to continue on to the next day" and but I think that is a wonderful alternative piece of thinking if you did mean that intentionally. I think to accept defeat as a possibility one must also accept lack of defeat (victory) as possibility. It is this kind of thing that makes me consider what I had not considered and which is why I am grateful for your input and for that of others. Thank you my friend.

 

[jks9199]

I don't feel a need to address any other part of your post Chris- based on this alone I just don't think your insight into martial arts, in addition to your vehement nature, warrants me paying it attention. What you misunderstand is the point I made- how can you ever 'fill a cup' without it overflowing, and ultimately mitigating being full. You assign fullness to where there is the delicate state before the water spills over? Than I think you do not see the more subtle message I was making- even when full, it overflows and empties, and we begin back where we started. It's impossible for it to be full, an abject and seemingly arbitrary point. That is humility.

In a few years, if we both are posting still, I'll take a look at your posts when I see deeper insight, and less obstinance for the sake of it. You think I'm the one who needs humility?

mitigating

abject

humility

(I'm getting really tempted to simply insert a link to Montoya's comment to Vessini regarding "inconceivable" in The Princess Bride...)

Also... when you over-fill a vessel, most do not empty, they spill over. The vessel remains full (I suppose, depending on the materials in question, new material may push out the old, rather than simply spill over the top... but the vessel remains full); it doesn't dump itself. Please don't move onto the story about the professor taking the beaker full of gravel, adding sand, then adding water...

To address the topic at hand... Is humility necessary for the study of the martial arts? Nope. Lots of arrogant asshats in the martial arts, even some very skilled folks, especially some of the ones most trumpeting their humility. But I don't really think that was Jenna's actual question... There is a point in learning anything where you must have the ability to accept information and input from others. You also need a certain lack of humility when it comes time to teach and share... You've got to believe that you've got something special, right? Otherwise, why bother? It's also easy to mistake questions of face or status for humility or lack thereof...

 

[elder999]

I am 50 years old and I have never been mugged.

Aside from the usual high school brawls, most of the fighting I've done has been because it was my job in law enforcement to apprehend knuckleheads. And since I haven't been involved in law enforcement since the 90's, I haven't been in a real fight since then either.

I’m nearly 52, and I’ve survived three “attempted muggings,” all within nearly a year of each other. With the notable exception of the first one-which was more of an attack, and a case of mistaken identity, in Greece-I was at fault; it was a lack of vigilance and situational awareness that led to them taking place, I feel. In Barcelona, I was very much playing the tourist-paying attention to the attractions, instead of my surroundings. In Brooklyn-which would have been a very successful mugging, but turned into an attempted murder-I was waay overdressed for a late night IRT subway ride. In all instances, which took place before I turned 22, I was a much less imposing looking person as well-in fact, shortly after the last one, in Brooklyn, I had pretty much started look “bad” enough that people actually sometimes crossed the street to avoid me-add nearly 25 lbs. of muscle since then, and the fact that I pretty much don’t go to places where it’s as likely to happen, and I think I can pretty much count on not getting mugged before I’m old and decrepit, and look like a pushover.....in the meantime, my bearing, as well as my appearance, is enough to keep most muggers at bay. In fact, in most encounters I had in my twenties (bouncer, security at parties, riding around with bikers) I just had to give people "the look," and they'd ease off.....still seems to work.:lol:

thank you for this entire post. I am particularly interested in this please. In matters of giving free rein to your ego can I ask please is there any method beyond gut feeling in determining who among the experts you should listen to and who you should not listen to?

In some instances, reputation and personal experience. In my current position, I have a colleague who is....well, full of *****, a great deal of the time. The important thing in this instance is determining when he is FOS, and when I need to point it out, rather than just let him get away with it....in fact, I have had a number of colleagues like that, over the years, and several ways of dealing with it. On the other hand, there are those who, again, through their actions and reputations, I tend to trust.

As far as my gut goes, though, in both instances it is much like my appearance to muggers: the “expert’s” bearing often conveys whether they are trustworthy or not, and further observation often bears that out.

I appreciate that is a question that invites a just do whatever reply. I am interested in knowing how you do this in the face of many experts which I think you both are yourself and work alongside and whose screwdrivers you might disarm them of, how do you know which to heed and which to push aside shouting Smithers, unleash my ego! And another point, sorry to ask too many questions, if EVERYONE of those experts is telling you to step down off your ego platform only your ego feels that to do so is detrimental, how to you realise the power in your own conceit to break away and trust yourself? Sorry again and but thank you for taking the time to reply. I am grateful.

When I know I’m right, I’m right. Fortunately, such conflicts rarely take place, but I am pretty convincing when they do.

I started my career in commercial nuclear power-on more than one occasion, over the course of a decade, I had to physically remove an operator’s hands from controls because their actions were about to have adverse consequences-this also doesn’t happen very much, and is part of the job-fortunately enough, it constituted a kind of language among us, and, as operators, we tended to take it fairly seriously when it occurred, as in, What did I do?

I wish I could offer some more concrete professional examples, but it’s going to take a lot of literary judo and evasiveness that I just don’t think I want to risk right now...I guess I should say that I’m usually going to trust myself, but it did take a while for me to recognize it-there have been times in the past where I knew I was right, but-either because of self-doubt, or “majority rule,” had to let things proceed in a way that I knew would prove to be adverse. I simply haven’t really had the luxury of doing that for some time, except for the smallest things, when I sometimes will, if only for the pleasure of saying, I told you so..., or, more often, because it’s simply not worth it-and it’s also good training to allow people to “fail” where the consequences are minimal.

 

[jks9199]

I guess I should say that I’m usually going to trust myself, but it did take a while for me to recognize it-there have been times in the past where I knew I was right, but-either because of self-doubt, or “majority rule,” had to let things proceed in a way that I knew would prove to be adverse. I simply haven’t really had the luxury of doing that for some time, except for the smallest things, when I sometimes will, if only for the pleasure of saying, I told you so..., or, more often, because it’s simply not worth it-and it’s also good training to allow people to “fail” where the consequences are minimal.

This is something I've seen in rookies, especially in those who are also young. They know what to do, they know what they have to do... but don't trust themselves yet and don't carry that confidence. They end up waiting, or following a more experienced officer's lead -- even if it's not the right thing or best thing to do. The only cure I've seen for it is time & reinforcement of their ability to make the right call.

 

[Jenna]

In some instances, reputation and personal experience. In my current position, I have a colleague who is....well, full of *****, a great deal of the time. The important thing in this instance is determining when he is FOS, and when I need to point it out, rather than just let him get away with it....in fact, I have had a number of colleagues like that, over the years, and several ways of dealing with it. On the other hand, there are those who, again, through their actions and reputations, I tend to trust.

If I can use your example, I wonder have you ever encountered an instance where the expert you tended to trust was all along FOS? If an expert has, as you have said, a backing of the community that you and they are part of, and carries a worthiness that requires deference, can they at the same time still be full of ***** TO YOU YOURSELF? You would be relying upon your own confidence to believe contrary to what is the accepted standard I think. You have said when you know you are right you are indeed right. And so have you ever acted contrary to the accepted conventions within your entire community (whether at work or outside)? Is this action only for the ultimate high-flyers. Or is it only for those with the ultimate conceit? I would be interested in your thoughts. Thank you.

 

[Cyriacus]

I don't feel a need to address any other part of your post Chris- based on this alone I just don't think your insight into martial arts, in addition to your vehement nature, warrants me paying it attention. What you misunderstand is the point I made- how can you ever 'fill a cup' without it overflowing, and ultimately mitigating being full. You assign fullness to where there is the delicate state before the water spills over? Than I think you do not see the more subtle message I was making- even when full, it overflows and empties, and we begin back where we started. It's impossible for it to be full, an abject and seemingly arbitrary point. That is humility.

In a few years, if we both are posting still, I'll take a look at your posts when I see deeper insight, and less obstinance for the sake of it. You think I'm the one who needs humility?

I have a Cup.
It empties when I drink it.
It fills when I refill i... Wait, We're talking Philosophy.

Ones imaginary cup of symbolistic Humility, can be full, overflowing, and frozen solid. It wont affect whether or not Theyre knowledgable or skillful, but it may affect when They can and cannot believe a criticism to Their view to herald any merit.

I know that Chris wouldnt and doesnt pick at things just for the sake of it.
And so far, all Ive seen Him raise are valid points.

Why am I saying all this?
To nullify a bit of tunnel vision, which may lead one to think that Their opponent in a debate is unsupported simply due to a lack of direct participation in the debate by others, in that persons favor.
Thats about all I can say for now, without needing to produce a textual scalpel.

 

[elder999]

If I can use your example, I wonder have you ever encountered an instance where the expert you tended to trust was all along FOS? If an expert has, as you have said, a backing of the community that you and they are part of, and carries a worthiness that requires deference, can they at the same time still be full of ***** TO YOU YOURSELF? You would be relying upon your own confidence to believe contrary to what is the accepted standard I think. You have said when you know you are right you are indeed right. And so have you ever acted contrary to the accepted conventions within your entire community (whether at work or outside)?

So, I do have a story I can relate. I probably have several, but this is a good place to start:

In 1997, I was part of the IAEA inspection team that was sent to North Korea. My mission was threefold: observe the encasement of fuel rods, determine if their reactors were suitable for power production (no), and collect data for determination of whether they were capable of developing a weapon. The answer to the last question-at least, my answer, was yes, at the time. Now, at the time, I was 6 years from having a doctorate forced on me, and was-in the eyes of Los Alamos Lab and a great deal of the community, "just a well-qualified technician." My opinion didn't matter-the data I collected told the then head of the lab, a truly brilliant man named Sig Hecker, that North Korea couldn't develop a weapon, and he said so, publicly, several times-something like their being decades away. He let the lab in '97, and went on to make several trips to North Korea himself. On one of them, around 2002 or so, they made their slight reveal to Sig, (compared to the big reveal of their centrifuge plant, in 2010) who was shocked to have to change his opinion, especially after getting data from their 2006 and 2009 nuclear tests.

Sig Hecker's a plutonium metallurgist-a really brilliant, well-measured and thoughtful guy. A much better and more qualified scientist than I am.

I'm an engineer-a pretty good one, not necessarily brilliant,and a self-admitted knuckle dragger.

I have a scientist's credentials, which I didn't at the time, but I'm really just an engineer, in the end.

I was right, though, and he was wrong, and 10 years later, North Korea proved me right.

Was Sig FOS? Not really-he based his evaluation on his experience and knowledge. Of course, he got into the work after most of it had been developed by some really brilliant men......and a collection of knuckle draggers like me, and he couldn't see what North Korea had-he only saw what they lacked. Based on what they lacked, he couldn't envision being capable of developing a program himself, and so he determined that North Korea couldn't.

I looked at what they had with a blacksmith's mentality, and said, Yeah, I could do it. It wouldn't be pretty, and it wouldn't necessarily be done as well as they did back in '45, and the effort would probably kill a few workers, but I could get it done......

Is this action only for the ultimate high-flyers. Or is it only for those with the ultimate conceit? I would be interested in your thoughts. Thank you.

I'd say that it's for those of us who know that they're right......doom on you if you're wrong, though. :lol:

This puts us pretty far afield from your original question, though......of course, the answer to that is yes-in that context , I've never had occasion to say that one of my seniors was FOS....

 

[Rich Parsons]

So, I do have a story I can relate. I probably have several, but this is a good place to start:

In 1997, I was part of the IAEA inspection team that was sent to North Korea. My mission was threefold: observe the encasement of fuel rods, determine if their reactors were suitable for power production (no), and collect data for determination of whether they were capable of developing a weapon. The answer to the last question-at least, my answer, was yes, at the time. Now, at the time, I was 6 years from having a doctorate forced on me, and was-in the eyes of Los Alamos Lab and a great deal of the community, "just a well-qualified technician." My opinion didn't matter-the data I collected told the then head of the lab, a truly brilliant man named Sig Hecker, that North Korea couldn't develop a weapon, and he said so, publicly, several times-something like their being decades away. He let the lab in '97, and went on to make several trips to North Korea himself. On one of them, around 2002 or so, they made their slight reveal to Sig, (compared to the big reveal of their centrifuge plant, in 2010) who was shocked to have to change his opinion, especially after getting data from their 2006 and 2009 nuclear tests.

Sig Hecker's a plutonium metallurgist-a really brilliant, well-measured and thoughtful guy. A much better and more qualified scientist than I am.

I'm an engineer-a pretty good one, not necessarily brilliant,and a self-admitted knuckle dragger.
View attachment 16234
I have a scientist's credentials, which I didn't at the time, but I'm really just an engineer, in the end.

I was right, though, and he was wrong, and 10 years later, North Korea proved me right.

Was Sig FOS? Not really-he based his evaluation on his experience and knowledge. Of course, he got into the work after most of it had been developed by some really brilliant men......and a collection of knuckle draggers like me, and he couldn't see what North Korea had-he only saw what they lacked. Based on what they lacked, he couldn't envision being capable of developing a program himself, and so he determined that North Korea couldn't.

I looked at what they had with a blacksmith's mentality, and said, Yeah, I could do it. It wouldn't be pretty, and it wouldn't necessarily be done as well as they did back in '45, and the effort would probably kill a few workers, but I could get it done......



I'd say that it's for those of us who know that they're right......doom on you if you're wrong, though. :lol:

This puts us pretty far afield from your original question, though......of course, the answer to that is yes-in that context , I've never had occasion to say that one of my seniors was FOS....

Elder,

A few comments:

1) Where did you get my picture?
2) I know what you mean about carrying weight as a tech versus engineer versus a doctorate / scientist. Years ago I went to talk to the bright boys running their models to tell them that their latest idea would not work. I asked questions and explained real slow that the model is the model, not the real world. Sometimes over education can lead you down a path of thinking abstractly only. In the end I asked them some basic questions about RH (Relative Humidity), fluid variation due to age, fill techniques and how having a moving switch that required multiple points of contact barried in transmission fluid was not a good idea, in particular when they could be in and out of the fluid in freezing weather. As the team of doctors left to look at their model and run some more tests a couple of people asked me what my Ph D was in. I smiled and said "Common Sense". I am a System Engineer.
3) I figured no one could follow you and a North Korea Nuke comment, so I jumped on the granade and went on after you. :lol:

 

[clfsean]

3) I figured no one could follow you and a North Korea Nuke comment, so I jumped on the granade and went on after you. :lol:

Oh... Reallly???

Well, one time in band camp...

 

[Jenna]

So, I do have a story I can relate. I probably have several, but this is a good place to start:

In 1997, I was part of the IAEA inspection team that was sent to North Korea. My mission was threefold: observe the encasement of fuel rods, determine if their reactors were suitable for power production (no), and collect data for determination of whether they were capable of developing a weapon. The answer to the last question-at least, my answer, was yes, at the time. Now, at the time, I was 6 years from having a doctorate forced on me, and was-in the eyes of Los Alamos Lab and a great deal of the community, "just a well-qualified technician." My opinion didn't matter-the data I collected told the then head of the lab, a truly brilliant man named Sig Hecker, that North Korea couldn't develop a weapon, and he said so, publicly, several times-something like their being decades away. He let the lab in '97, and went on to make several trips to North Korea himself. On one of them, around 2002 or so, they made their slight reveal to Sig, (compared to the big reveal of their centrifuge plant, in 2010) who was shocked to have to change his opinion, especially after getting data from their 2006 and 2009 nuclear tests.

Sig Hecker's a plutonium metallurgist-a really brilliant, well-measured and thoughtful guy. A much better and more qualified scientist than I am.

I'm an engineer-a pretty good one, not necessarily brilliant,and a self-admitted knuckle dragger.
View attachment 16234
I have a scientist's credentials, which I didn't at the time, but I'm really just an engineer, in the end.

I was right, though, and he was wrong, and 10 years later, North Korea proved me right.

Was Sig FOS? Not really-he based his evaluation on his experience and knowledge. Of course, he got into the work after most of it had been developed by some really brilliant men......and a collection of knuckle draggers like me, and he couldn't see what North Korea had-he only saw what they lacked. Based on what they lacked, he couldn't envision being capable of developing a program himself, and so he determined that North Korea couldn't.

I looked at what they had with a blacksmith's mentality, and said, Yeah, I could do it. It wouldn't be pretty, and it wouldn't necessarily be done as well as they did back in '45, and the effort would probably kill a few workers, but I could get it done......



I'd say that it's for those of us who know that they're right......doom on you if you're wrong, though. :lol:

This puts us pretty far afield from your original question, though......of course, the answer to that is yes-in that context , I've never had occasion to say that one of my seniors was FOS....

Thank you for sharing this experience. I am grateful to learn of how these things work on the ground so to speak. So in your one hand you have the idea of advising the US and allies that we should be prepared for nuclear-backed aggression from N Korea based on your individual conclusion, and in your other hand you have your trust in Sig who is a highly respected authority and who represents you at a higher level. That is a lot to carry in your hands I think. Wow. And so was it humility that caused you to defer to his experience? Or something else?

I guess it is a big risk speaking out even if you know you are right since the possibility exists that what you know about what you know is itself not correct. Thank you again. I am grateful to learn these things. I am looking forward to your memoir when you are released from your official secrets.. do not tell me it would only be a posthumous memoir? I hope not

 

[Jenna]

Elder,

A few comments:

1) Where did you get my picture?
2) I know what you mean about carrying weight as a tech versus engineer versus a doctorate / scientist. Years ago I went to talk to the bright boys running their models to tell them that their latest idea would not work. I asked questions and explained real slow that the model is the model, not the real world. Sometimes over education can lead you down a path of thinking abstractly only. In the end I asked them some basic questions about RH (Relative Humidity), fluid variation due to age, fill techniques and how having a moving switch that required multiple points of contact barried in transmission fluid was not a good idea, in particular when they could be in and out of the fluid in freezing weather. As the team of doctors left to look at their model and run some more tests a couple of people asked me what my Ph D was in. I smiled and said "Common Sense". I am a System Engineer.
3) I figured no one could follow you and a North Korea Nuke comment, so I jumped on the granade and went on after you. :lol:

Rich, I like your PhD in common sense And can you tell me why are scientists regarded as being higher on a scale then engineers? Are the two disciplines not equivalent? Thank you.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich, I like your PhD in common sense And can you tell me why are scientists regarded as being higher on a scale then engineers? Are the two disciplines not equivalent? Thank you.

Many people will look for anything to separate and put one above another.
Education is used many times this way.
Grand Masters over Senior Masters over Masters over Senior Instructions over Instructors over Assistant Instructors over students.

Medical Doctors do it with Doctors of Ostepath. Also with Dentists and Optometrists.
Within MD's it is done for Cardio etcetera as well as internalist and or other specialists.
Then there are Nurses and degrees within them as well

In the science fields, if you have a Ph D you can make some money teaching or in research. If you have a BS or MS degreee then the "Scientists" who have Ph D's look down on you. If you cannot get the piece of paper (degree) then your opinion does not count or matter.

In Engineering Electrical and Mechanical are the main areas. They both will get a master's on Computer Science, but Computer Science is still looked down on as it is not an engineering degree. There is Coputer Engineering but that is more Hardware related and considered a verys specialized version of Electrical Engineering. Yet they both will get the Master's in Comp Sci to have the Master's degree to be above those with just a BS and or compete for promotions with those who have a MS.

So those with Ph D's in Engineering and or a Science and working in advanced or modeling want to be special or think of themselves as better so they act accordingly.

I work with some Ph D's and they are very smart. They do their job. They will educate you and share with you. They will listen to your experience and add it to their knowledge and become better.

And yes this all fits with your discussion in this thread just a different field from Martial Arts.

 

[elder999]

In Engineering Electrical and Mechanical are the main areas. They both will get a master's on Computer Science, but Computer Science is still looked down on as it is not an engineering degree. .

And if you're a nuclear engineer, like me, maybe you look down on all of them, but maybe without a job.....:lfao:

 

[Jenna]

Many people will look for anything to separate and put one above another.
Education is used many times this way.
Grand Masters over Senior Masters over Masters over Senior Instructions over Instructors over Assistant Instructors over students.

Medical Doctors do it with Doctors of Ostepath. Also with Dentists and Optometrists.
Within MD's it is done for Cardio etcetera as well as internalist and or other specialists.
Then there are Nurses and degrees within them as well

In the science fields, if you have a Ph D you can make some money teaching or in research. If you have a BS or MS degreee then the "Scientists" who have Ph D's look down on you. If you cannot get the piece of paper (degree) then your opinion does not count or matter.

In Engineering Electrical and Mechanical are the main areas. They both will get a master's on Computer Science, but Computer Science is still looked down on as it is not an engineering degree. There is Coputer Engineering but that is more Hardware related and considered a verys specialized version of Electrical Engineering. Yet they both will get the Master's in Comp Sci to have the Master's degree to be above those with just a BS and or compete for promotions with those who have a MS.

So those with Ph D's in Engineering and or a Science and working in advanced or modeling want to be special or think of themselves as better so they act accordingly.

I work with some Ph D's and they are very smart. They do their job. They will educate you and share with you. They will listen to your experience and add it to their knowledge and become better.

And yes this all fits with your discussion in this thread just a different field from Martial Arts.

Thank you for explaining this Rich. Have you experienced this personally? I mean how do you know if one person is as you say not regarded as having an equal place? Is this made apparent at meetings? Do people voice this kind of snobbery out loud? It sounds like a fraught environment if there are these tensions pervading your work??? Thank you again.

 

[elder999]

Thank you for sharing this experience. I am grateful to learn of how these things work on the ground so to speak. So in your one hand you have the idea of advising the US and allies that we should be prepared for nuclear-backed aggression from N Korea based on your individual conclusion, and in your other hand you have your trust in Sig who is a highly respected authority and who represents you at a higher level. That is a lot to carry in your hands I think. Wow. And so was it humility that caused you to defer to his experience? Or something else?

No deference at all, really. I-along with a few other people-collected some data, and others above our paygrade evaluated that data and made conclusions. Beyond the collection of the data, my job at the time was done. Of course, I couldn't help but make my own evaluation of my own observations, but no one was ever interested in what I had to say.

 

[Jenna]

No deference at all, really. I-along with a few other people-collected some data, and others above our paygrade evaluated that data and made conclusions. Beyond the collection of the data, my job at the time was done. Of course, I couldn't help but make my own evaluation of my own observations, but no one was ever interested in what I had to say.

That is unfortunate, and I would guess potentially dangerous! I suppose at that level there can be no decision by committee though? Do you feel differently now about their decision than to how you did at the time? Thank you.

 

[Rich Parsons]

And if you're a nuclear engineer, like me, maybe you look down on all of them, but maybe without a job.....:lfao:

I was a Chem E major for three years. I left because of the Cancer rates working with oil products. It is safer to work with radioactive material or it was from the data in the late 80's.

And yes, some will always look down on others with or without a job. :hmm:

I am glad you have one though.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Thank you for explaining this Rich. Have you experienced this personally? I mean how do you know if one person is as you say not regarded as having an equal place? Is this made apparent at meetings? Do people voice this kind of snobbery out loud? It sounds like a fraught environment if there are these tensions pervading your work??? Thank you again.

Yes. Sometimes based upon level or title at level where I have worked as well as with education. Some PhD's will not be obvious about it, but they will say things occasionally about their schooling or just continue to yell like you do not know what you are talking about, which makes most people stop and think maybe there is something I do not know and need to check. So your silence becomes an acceptance to their comments.

Over time some are ignored or moved out of implementation and into real advanced stuff so they can go play in a sand box and let others produce a producet to sell to customers so the company can make some money and pay their salary.

And those who are this way and are right a lot usually get promoted and are out of your way to get the job done.

Now that being said, the numbers are few. Most people right now are just happy to have a job and able to work.